An introspective discussion about ourselves from within the hobby

[boredinbingo]

I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

This might be a bad idea so if it is, please feel free to tell me/shut down the post, but I'm really curious about the inner psychological lives of us in this community. I often wonder that I cannot be the only person who has grappled extensively with the different implications of being a 'hobbyist'. I'll be the first to admit that when I first started hobbying I was thrown into a deep, deep depression after every encounter because I found myself thinking that I couldn't possibly love my relationship partner while also participating in these acts. To be brief - I got over it and I'm still here. But I have some lingering questions about US as a group of people.

First - conventional wisdom would tell us that we are all 'deviants' of some kind, with the hobbyists being predatory exploiters and providers being unable to give consent because of a variety of reasons. For example, this taken from a wikipedia article on criminology and the hobby:

...[some] "argue that the act of prostitution is not by definition a fully consensual act, as the prostitutes are forced to sell sex, either by somebody else or by the unfortunate circumstances of their lives (such as poverty, lack of opportunity, drug addiction, a history of severe childhood abuse or neglect etc): "In the academic literature on prostitution there are very few authors who argue that valid consent to prostitution is possible. Most suggest that consent to prostitution is impossible or at least unlikely." [39]. "(...) most authors suggest that consent to prostitution is deeply problematic if not impossible (...) most authors have argued that consent to prostitution is impossible. For radical feminists this is because prostitution is always a coercive sexual practice. Others simply suggest that economic coercion makes the sexual consent of sex workers highly problematic if not impossible...""

I should state that I DO NOT agree with all of this- and I generally think a lot of the academic work about the hobby is under developed because it's from an outside perspective. Further, I do see that there are some more unsavory aspects of the hobby that do involve the sex trade and child prostitution - I, myself, find those to be wrong. That said, I am exceptionally curious about what patterns of experience or factors exist as commonalities between all of us.

Do you think we as a community on this forum can discuss this? How did we get here? Are we all just damaged goods by some sort of traumatic moment or abuse in our lives? Are all providers seeking to make up some deeply awful self-esteem deficiency? I realize this is a deeply personal question so I don't expect providers to share us their stories/conflicts, but I am curious about the true reasons we end up here - and if we are open to discussing this non judgmentally I think it would be amazing.

For me - I'll just say I got into the hobby because it was a lot less stressful and way more efficient to contact a provider and get that girlfriend experience than it was to put myself out there in the dating scene and expose myself to rejection or compete with other men. I think it is fair to say that the beauty and class of many of the women on this board put them in a category that some would say are 'out of our leagues' in the non-hobbying world. There is also deep, deep feelings of acceptance I get between provider and hobbyist where we acknowledge that in some way we are both "social outcasts" and there is an intimacy and connection that is generated by a mutual acceptance of an aspect of ourselves that we keep hidden from most of the world. This is usually unsaid but I wonder if it's there, lurking under the surface.

On the flip side - I also enjoy the fantasy of being involved with a variety of beautiful and interesting women, so in some ways I like the aspect of making those fantasies into reality. There is also the excitement inherent in the fact that hobbying is somewhat taboo.

Lastly, I have found that the pragmatic reasons I argue to justify the legitimacy of the hobby (i.e. better than affairs, it's consensual, just meeting a need, mutual enjoyment of provider and hobbyist without commitment and etc) - are all things that occurred to me AFTER I began hobbying - I was drawn to it first, and rationalized it later. That's just me.

It's easy to oversimplify and say that we're all just horny dudes with crappy sex lives at home that want to meet young, attractive women - and that providers are all women who are seeking some sort of validation or affection. It's easy to say that we're all sex addicts and drug addicts who cyclically enable each other, but I find that those statements are a load of crap. The common narratives and generalizations I think we can agree are not adequate to describe our experiences as providers and hobbyists. What do you think?

I apologize for the length of this - it's quite a novel - but I was so excited by the idea of discussing this, I just had to get it all out. Also, I'd be happy to discuss this with anyone through PM as well. And if you think I suck then hey, you can post that too. I just thought I'd take a minute to be real about my questions and see if anyone else out there wondered them too.

[NormalBob]

You've raised some fascinating questions.

I just had an incredible dinner date with my baby sister and she shared with me her experiences with infidelity and all the conflict she has with it. [Note: My baby sister is 38.]

I'd be willing to attempt something insightful but it is too late and I need to sleep.

I'll just say that you can be both a 'deviant' and not 'abnormal'.

[jackfengshui]

I think most hobbyists do it for more than one reason. The need for intimacy or sex without drama or entanglement is probably a common element. Some do not get it otherwise, or enough of it. Some just want more, or more variety. Some find the clandestine nature exciting.

Speaking for myself, it saves my marriage and makes me a very fulfilled and contented person. And I have a lot of empathy for the ladies and their individual motivations for entering the profession.

[NormalBob]

Another hit and run comment....

I used to wonder a lot about what things could be like and it ate at me.

Now I know and I feel like a lot of brain cycles have been converted to something more useful.

[rooster]

Introspection can be a good thing, but like all things, only if in moderation.

I suggest that most guilt or questionable feelings that we have about this are caused by current culture and our own individual problems.

Anyone who has spent any quality time with a good provider knows that these women are fully aware and engaged in what they are doing, and seem to "enjoy" their jobs more than most people I know.

There are a lot of exceptions to this, of course. When I lived in NYC 20 years ago, I made the horrible mistake of going to the "Street" once. Junkies, runaways, and illegal immigrants are probably not "willing participants" overall, and I felt like I wanted to die afterwards. But the educated, healthy women that most of us patronize these days are not naive.

Bottom line: don't worry about this too much.

I have had experiences in hobbying that were so wonderful that I absolutely KNEW in my heart that it was a good thing.

But.... too much "hobbying" ain't a good thing either. If it interferes with other necessary parts of your life, you need to back down.

As for me, I have next week off and I am going to ravage some hot, sexy, 100-percent-willing, beautiful woman.... and I am going to pay her well for her time! And afterwards, I am going to feel GREAT.

[offshoredrilling]

"marriage relationship class" I have been to that you must take this class before you married in this church 3 times. na change my mind, Not going to go where I was about to go.

And I will just say thanks Rooster69 for your post. And boredinbingo for the thread.

[boredinbingo]

I agree with most of what you guys are saying. The guilt aspect is not something that haunts me anymore personally. I was thinking about this more and I do agree that there is a definite differentiation between providers that are generally discussed in this forum, and those on the street or foreign countries. So our particular practices between provider/hobbyist do not have as many ethical concerns regarding consent.

I am curious how we all got here. I'm willing to accept that most people aren't as neurotic as I am and didn't like, battle themselves over it as much. I guess I just wonder if it was a slow evolution from porn, to other activities to here - or did some of us just jump right in without a second thought?

I'm not trying to assuage any of my own concerns with this thread, nor am I trying to lead a group therapy session - but I guess I'm just curious about it all. Are we as messed up in the head as typical literature says we are? I don't THINK so, but seeing as how I don't know anyone else in my day to day life all I have is my own isolated observations. I can say that I have never been abused or have abused anyone else. Nor am I some raging fiend who tries to engage every woman in the world in random, furious copulation. I am, however, fascinated by the effects that our participation has had on ourselves. Do any of you feel isolated by carrying around this secretive aspect of yourself?

[jackfengshui]

It is a lonely and secretive hobby. That is why an online community like this is so welcome.

[NormalBob]

How did I get here? It's a long story starting back when I first saw Dale Rogers on TV followed by Gidget movies. Then I learned how to masturbate around the age of 11 or 12.

From there every progressive step was taken stretched over 40 years.

I don't feel particularly secretive given this board, talking with the women, letting my wife know without details that I'm doing some things that she doesn't need to worry about....

A lot of my "drive" in this area was built up over many decades of feeling denied something I thought I deserved. Now that I know what I've been missing and know what is possible, my drive has declined precipitously and I feel much more healthy than I did this time last year.

[Hardpiped03]

Well.....like many of the men here....I had pleanty of reasons to hobby while I was married. Lack of passion in my marriage being the biggest one. We fill many voids and learn many things through this hobby.

Now that I am divorced....and been out and dating....I have found another huge benefit. These women over the last several years taught me so much about how to treat a woman. What they like, dislike, etc. What I learned through the hobby has made me a much better person, friend, lover.... I am now out and enjoying my life to the fullest and reaping many benefits from being a hobbiest.

HP

[manning_ithaca]

Very interesting to read all of these comments. I think I may be a bit younger than most of the respondents here, which motivates my own response. I am not married, but have a serious girlfriend, and have only had a handful of hobbying experiences. And being so close to my "decision" to enter this world, I am still highly aware of my own justifications.

I see so many parallels to my own feelings and motivations mentioned here. Namely, the feeling of being denied something I deserve, an insatiable curiosity, and an all-consuming desire to experience a variety of sexual experiences and partners. One word I would add to this list is eroticism. Stimulation surrounds us all the time, taking us right to the edge, but for a lot of us there is absolutely no way to fulfill those accumulated desires. I was raised in a very open minded household (not abusive or even strange, just open), and came to expect and desire a certain amount of freedom in sexual experiences in the world. Then, partly because of my own insecurities, and partly because of societal norms, I did not find those sexual experiences I craved. In fact, sometimes I feel like if I did not exercise the freedom that the hobby allows, I might have turned into some sort of "deviant" in a more negative sense of the word. Perhaps if I had been afforded more sexual encounters when I was younger, I might not have chosen this path. But who knows?

Regarding the ethical issues, I'm shocked at the "academic" findings mentioned by boredinbingo. The studies cited must think of both consensuality and prostitution in very black and white terms for them to reach such conclusions. The reality is that a lot of sex, and a lot of everything we do for that matter, is not fully consensual. There are ALWAYS things to be gained and lost, ambivalent desires, power structures, conscious and unconscious needs. Adding money into the equation only materializes and makes some of these things explicit.

I have only had a few partners. One left me feeling absolutely terrible. This one was probably the closest to the type of situation that most outsiders must think of when they envision prostitution. But two others, specifically, have been something entirely different. For them, there was definitely a bond. We both got a lot out of it. A win-win situation if you will. Okay, so I've gone on long enough. Just wanted to add my thoughts. Thanks all

[boredinbingo]

It's hard to say. I often think that my participation in the hobby has done, for me, more damage than good. There is definitely an aspect of fantasy fulfillment that lead me here. I too am in a younger demographic. I am not married but I was in a long term relationship with a woman I loved dearly - but my desire to fulfill these various fantasies made it impossible for me to look at her and bear the burden of the image she had of me with the reality of who I am and what she would think, regardless of how I felt about my hobby. That juxtaposition was really hard. This is all in MY head and I'm not saying anyone else should feel this way or not, but it was my experience. And I started to wonder if the fantasy fulfillment was empty. And I started to feel like my experiences were isolating me from the world, and that unless I found a fairly open minded relationship partner - I would always be holding back a part of myself. It's odd. And yes, this is an inherently isolating thing - and this community is great - but how much does an online message board REALLY help us not feel isolated? You all seem like great guys but when I'm laying awake at night feeling lonely or like nobody in my life relates to me - I don't think "ah but at least there's those guys on the board."

I think we all talk a pretty good game about not feeling bad and I'm sure a lot of us don't. There are activities within the hobby that I don't generally feel bad about (massage + manual release doesn't make me feel passionately one way or another) but I suspect that for some of us it gets tricky. Some of us learn boundaries that we can live with depending on our situations. Some of us can just roll with it. There's no value judgment in my statement I'm just saying how it is for me.

My question though is if we agree that the generalizations about the hobby are not accurate (in our experience) I am curious what we think, from within the hobby, is the factor that makes us different. I'm sure we all realize that lots of people have serious ethical problems with the hobby. The only ethical judgments I make are on myself, so I don't generally care what people do in a consensual environment, so PLEASE don't think I'm preaching some argument that what we're doing is wrong.

But what is different about us that we are okay with something that many people are not? I've heard the statements all before that our society is just puritanical and closed off and etc... but if we spend all of our time waiting for society to change it may not ever. Sometimes I think that if we want to legitimize it, we need to come up with some sort of narrative of our own that explains why it IS okay. We need to generate a new narrative that talks about why we are all okay, and not freaks, predators or deviants, and talks about how we are not hurting each other.

But I think the primary question is - if society is puritanical and prude, and we are all members of society, what quality about our personalities allow us to buck the conventional values? We're not amoral. I don't think any of us would go out and murder people or drown puppies for fun. I guess I'm just curious what it is that makes us different.

I probably think too much but whatever, I studied liberal arts.

[Abnormal_Steve]

Well, let me start out by saying this is not going to be very introspective. I ended up in this "hobby" (man... I hate that term) after my divorce. Unlike many here, when my marriage wasn't working, I got divorced. I didn't participate in this "hobby" when I was married and I certainly don't think if I did, it would have kept my marriage together..... unhappy is unhappy. My son was 2 1/2 when we split up and it's been over 12 yrs now. Luckily my ex only lives a few miles away, so we've pretty much split up his time between both our homes. My hats off to the women raise kids on their own. Between my job and parenting responsibilities, there doesn't seem to be any free time. It's a lot of freakin' work...lol

Anyway, I live in a small college town, there is really is no "dating" scene unless your a young college student. I don't like hanging in bars(except for the occasional happy hour). So, I chose this is an alternative. To be honest with you, I'm not a numbers guy. I don't need a lot of variety, when I hookup with someone that clicks with me... I don't tend to stray much.. unless she retires or moves away.... At my age, I'd rather be in a "relationship". Sometimes I look at all the money I blow on this "hobby" and think.. sheesh.. wouldn't it be more fun to spend a couple grand on a nice 4 day vacation with my sweetie (skiing in Vail or laying on the beach someplace having a few drinks and playing in the ocean). But, that ain't happenin', so here I am.

I've only met one woman who posts on this this board, and I think she'll know who she is . I don't post much, anyplace, cuz I don't have much to say. Honestly, I don't even pay much attention to the reviews. As long as the ladies have a picture and are truthful to me, it seems to all workout.

Ok, I'm not sure why I felt the urge to blort all this crap out, cuz in the end.. who the hell really cares? Anyway, I don't feel an imminent "retirement" coming on so, don't bother planning a party... lol. BTW, can you retire from a "hobby" ?

Peace..........

[summerwaves]

I really do not like the expression "girlfriend experience" because it is not reality. Perhaps "girlfriend fantasy" would be better.

I agree that the "academic" work is underdeveloped and misses a great deal of issues surrounding this life style. Getting back to the girl friend experience and the reality of it is that it is just a fantasy. A real problem is that some hobbiests do not understand this and some believe the object of their experience is really like that all the time. They start believing it and becoming too attached. Some forget that the experience is all about and for them and that the girl giving the experience may have a totally different idea of what is good. Her style, wants, needs and desire may be completely different.

Not one of us is damaged goods. We are normal and human and doing what we have to do to get by. I don't know too many people who have had picture perfect lives since birth. We all have our problems in some form or another.

[FOREVERMAN]

I can only speak for myself in this situation and I am sure that many of you will disagree with my comments. Regardless, this is my take on the thread:

I agree that this is an evolution from magazines-to-present day activities.
As a young boy pornographic images became a way to escape the reality of the world I was living in with my parents divorce impacting me more than I knew at the time. The hobby is no different in my opinion. I look for a way to enter into a fantasy for a length of time to escape the pressure of every day life.

Therefore, it is my opinion that this is an addiction no different than any other.