Reply to Blackman, so we don't hijack WD's thread

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by 1blackman1

A solution to a nonproblem? You’re smarter than that and I truly hope you don’t really believe that. Maybe you want to believe that but I am sure you know better. There’s been no facts supporting the constant assertion of the existence of voter fraud in any election and it’s clear that voter fraud is not an actual problem in need of solutions. It’s the GOP boogeyman (lie) that they fall back on without ever providing actual examples. There’s a lot of could happen and might happen but no has happened.

You aren’t naive so you’re just trying to avoid accepting what the real purpose for these tactics are (that’s the kinda argument HF was so proud to keep making - he knew better also). They can’t come out and say they want to reduce the number of votes cast which in the past gave them a statically advantage so they say - prevent (nonexistent) voter fraud. Nonetheless, it’s all backfired for now. I actually thank them. When people decided against being disenfranchised they came out in droves.

It isn’t just Georgia but that happened to be ground zero. Arizona, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania followed suit as well. Interestingly, good ole republicans will likely keep up the same shenanigans to their own peril. We still have the likes of ICU and Waco spouting the same nonsense over and over about fraud prevention. Thanks guys. Let’s keep going down that failed path.

Hey, There are definitely cases of election law violation. Sixty three instances in 2022 are documented here,

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud-print/search

Would any of them have resulted in a change in the outcome of an election? My wild guess is no, although I haven't read through the list.

George Parr and Richard Daley were masters at stealing elections for Democrats. But are Democrats stealing elections in this day and age? I suspect not, or at least not very many.

However, that doesn't change the fact that 30% of Americans believe Biden stole the election. That's down from 40% a couple of years ago. The posters in this forum who believe Biden lost also sincerely believe that requiring photo ID and restricting mail in ballots are necessary to protect the integrity of the vote. In those states where their elected representatives believe likewise, what's wrong with giving them what they want?

Those measures would undoubtedly reduce voter fraud, from a low level to an even lower level. The idea those and similar measures would disadvantage Democrats is plain stupid, as you clearly set out in your earlier post. Democrats today are more motivated to go out and vote than Republicans. You tie the fiction, which apparently you've bought into, that Republicans have passed laws to reduce Democratic turnout, to the truth that Trump tried to steal an election, and you've got truly fired up Democrats, who are going to vote.

This is a little analogous to an issue eccieuser and I have been back and forth on, the BLM protests. Eccieuser rightly maintains that cops needlessly killing blacks (and whites and Hispanics and Asians) is horrendous. I agree but don't believe it's nearly as big of a problem as he does. If you want to just look at "black lives", then I'd contrast the number of deaths per year at the hands of cops, maybe 300 total, to 400,000 black men who are in jail, many unjustly. Then there are tens of thousands of premature deaths, maybe over 100,000, annually resulting from worse health care outcomes for blacks vs. whites in America.

Still, I believe it makes sense to try to reduce the number of killings by police. Yeah, perhaps money spent by communities on body cams and the like could be better spent elsewhere. And yes, perhaps police morale suffers. But when you've got a large part of America that's mad as hell about an issue, it makes sense to do something about it.

Same with election fraud. You had two or three thousand storm the capital and you have people out there ready to take up arms to defend America from the conniving Democrats who are trying to steal elections. What's the harm in, say, requiring photo ID and eliminating mail in ballots (except for those who legitimately can't go to the polls) if it's needed to placate 30% of America? Actually I read somewhere that 80% of Americans favor voter ID.

I already see what's coming from you next, that police actually have unjustly killed people, but there aren't stolen elections in recent times that people can point to. Well, maybe so. But there aren't that many George Floyd's out there in recent times either, in the grand scheme of things.

[eccieuser9500]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Hey, There are definitely cases of election law violation. Sixty three instances in 2022 are documented here,

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud-print/search

Would any of them have resulted in a change in the outcome of an election? My wild guess is no, although I haven't read through the list.

George Parr and Richard Daley were masters at stealing elections for Democrats. But are Democrats stealing elections in this day and age? I suspect not, or at least not very many.

However, that doesn't change the fact that 30% of Americans believe Biden stole the election. That's down from 40% a couple of years ago. The posters in this forum who believe Biden lost also sincerely believe that requiring photo ID and restricting mail in ballots are necessary to protect the integrity of the vote. In those states where their elected representatives believe likewise, what's wrong with giving them what they want?


Fraud, waste and abuse.

If those same elected officials believed rubbing dirt on your taint would cure colon cancer because just less than a third of the polled population believe that (including that official), the fraud, waste and abuse of office would raise some eye brows. To say the very least.


Those measures would undoubtedly reduce voter fraud, from a low level to an even lower level.

Has there been any research to back that up? Sir.

The idea those and similar measures would disadvantage Democrats is plain stupid, as you clearly set out in your earlier post. Democrats today are more motivated to go out and vote than Republicans. You tie the fiction, which apparently you've bought into, that Republicans have passed laws to reduce Democratic turnout, to the truth that Trump tried to steal an election, and you've got truly fired up Democrats, who are going to vote.


Harris county population versus the number of ballot boxes. Not fiction. Sir.

This is a little analogous to an issue eccieuser and I have been back and forth on, the BLM protests. Eccieuser rightly maintains that cops needlessly killing blacks (and whites and Hispanics and Asians) is horrendous. I agree but don't believe it's nearly as big of a problem as he does.

That's a God damned shame.

If you want to just look at "black lives", then I'd contrast the number of deaths per year at the hands of cops, maybe 300 total, to 400,000 black men who are in jail, many unjustly. Then there are tens of thousands of premature deaths, maybe over 100,000, annually resulting from worse health care outcomes for blacks vs. whites in America.

Still, I believe it makes sense to try to reduce the number of killings by police. Yeah, perhaps money spent by communities on body cams and the like could be better spent elsewhere.

How about redirecting their funds so uncle LEO does community service? Walking or biking the mean streets of Chicago or Houston. Outreach programs.

And yes, perhaps police morale suffers. But when you've got a large part of America that's mad as hell about an issue, it makes sense to do something about it.


No shit. Butthurt police? My heart aches. If it makes sense, do something about a problem that actually exists. Don't do something that's just a waste of time on a problem that doesn't exist just because some idiots believe it does.


Same with election fraud. You had two or three thousand storm the capital and you have people out there ready to take up arms to defend America from the conniving Democrats who are trying to steal elections. What's the harm in, say, requiring photo ID and eliminating mail in ballots (except for those who legitimately can't go to the polls) if it's needed to placate 30% of America? Actually I read somewhere that 80% of Americans favor voter ID.


Then what the fuck is a voter registration card for? Just more government waste to create an ID.


I already see what's coming from you next, that police actually have unjustly killed people, but there aren't stolen elections in recent times that people can point to. Well, maybe so. But there aren't that many George Floyd's out there in recent times either, in the grand scheme of things.

What the fuck does that mean? The grand scheme is the founding of the Republic. Even with recency bias; doesn't make sense with what you wrote. Sir.

[1blackman1]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Hey, There are definitely cases of election law violation. Sixty three instances in 2022 are documented here,

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud-print/search

Would any of them have resulted in a change in the outcome of an election? My wild guess is no, although I haven't read through the list.

George Parr and Richard Daley were masters at stealing elections for Democrats. But are Democrats stealing elections in this day and age? I suspect not, or at least not very many.

However, that doesn't change the fact that 30% of Americans believe Biden stole the election. That's down from 40% a couple of years ago. The posters in this forum who believe Biden lost also sincerely believe that requiring photo ID and restricting mail in ballots are necessary to protect the integrity of the vote. In those states where their elected representatives believe likewise, what's wrong with giving them what they want?

Those measures would undoubtedly reduce voter fraud, from a low level to an even lower level. The idea those and similar measures would disadvantage Democrats is plain stupid, as you clearly set out in your earlier post. Democrats today are more motivated to go out and vote than Republicans. You tie the fiction, which apparently you've bought into, that Republicans have passed laws to reduce Democratic turnout, to the truth that Trump tried to steal an election, and you've got truly fired up Democrats, who are going to vote.

This is a little analogous to an issue eccieuser and I have been back and forth on, the BLM protests. Eccieuser rightly maintains that cops needlessly killing blacks (and whites and Hispanics and Asians) is horrendous. I agree but don't believe it's nearly as big of a problem as he does. If you want to just look at "black lives", then I'd contrast the number of deaths per year at the hands of cops, maybe 300 total, to 400,000 black men who are in jail, many unjustly. Then there are tens of thousands of premature deaths, maybe over 100,000, annually resulting from worse health care outcomes for blacks vs. whites in America.

Still, I believe it makes sense to try to reduce the number of killings by police. Yeah, perhaps money spent by communities on body cams and the like could be better spent elsewhere. And yes, perhaps police morale suffers. But when you've got a large part of America that's mad as hell about an issue, it makes sense to do something about it.

Same with election fraud. You had two or three thousand storm the capital and you have people out there ready to take up arms to defend America from the conniving Democrats who are trying to steal elections. What's the harm in, say, requiring photo ID and eliminating mail in ballots (except for those who legitimately can't go to the polls) if it's needed to placate 30% of America? Actually I read somewhere that 80% of Americans favor voter ID.

I already see what's coming from you next, that police actually have unjustly killed people, but there aren't stolen elections in recent times that people can point to. Well, maybe so. But there aren't that many George Floyd's out there in recent times either, in the grand scheme of things.

There’s a lot to unpack here so I’ll try to concisely address what you’ve wrote.

Republicans believe the lie they have been told. So you can’t go back and say that because they believe the lie there must be some truth to it. That extremely illogical. Think about what you’re saying. Republicans as a talking point say “election fraud”. Their supporters believe that it’s a real issue because they are being told that. So now it has to be fixed because the lie took hold. That’s asinine at best and stupid at worse. The overall proof that it’s stupid is you site Heritage as the source that in 2022 63 instances of voter fraud existed. Millions of votes cast, 63 instances of fraud. Let’s think about that and take out the hyperbole. That’s not a problem that’s fixed by changing and shortening early votes or removing weekend or late night voting. Surely that’s not solved by reducing mail in voting or requiring IDs. Making all those changes have nothing at all to with stopping the very few actual instances of voter fraud.

It’s a silly position to take that things like stopping people from providing water to folks in line to vote is intended to prevent fraud. Or having late night hours somehow prevents fraud. Or purging voter registration rolls. Or shortening early voting period and not having Sunday voting prevents fraud. You’re smarter than what you wrote so I’ll leave you to ponder the real question, what’s it designed to effect?

I personally have no issue with ID requirements but with 63 out of millions of votes being the problem, it’s likely just an unnecessary artificial hurdle. But overall I believe simple is better. Any reasonable ID should be allowed. Why eliminate student IDs issued by colleges but allow hunting licenses? If you can’t see the difference on the surface of who that constituency might adversely affect, well, I don’t know what to tell ya but willful blindness comes to mind. That isn’t the only instance but if you take a second to look at accepted IDs vs not accepted forms of ID it might be enlightening.

Maybe if republicans quit spreading unfounded and unsupportable lies to their constituents, including through Fox News the RNC and formerly Trump propaganda arm, they be less likely to believe lies. Why does a large number of republicans believe the elections are rigged. Because they are being fed the lie and we know republicans generally aren’t the sharpest tools in shed. Shit, look at republican elected officials in congress Boebert Green Gosar Gohmer, all profound idiots. And that’s just off the top of my head. The republican constituency gets flood with falsehoods and since they only hear what they want to hear from the echo chamber (Fox Newsmax Breitbart etc) the falsehoods are reinforced as truth and facts. What did that lead to “election fraud” “election stolen”.

Your assertion that because people believe a falsehood repeated ad infinitum by people they believe that laws should be passed to assuage their fears is crazy. How about stop telling the lie. Put the real facts out there and tell the truth. Election fraud doesn’t exist in any amounts that require changes in the voting laws. The elections were stolen. There were no dumps of votes in boxes under tables and voting machines weren’t hacked. That’s where republicans can start and stop with all the attempts to limit the vote.

Interestingly you should read the 63 instances from 2022 (they they actually cover a longer period of time. Most are republicans (not surprisingly). I only found two that would be maybe stopped by some of the measures sought to prevent fraud. The instances of felons voting - NOPE, someone trying to affect their own local election - NOPE. Now there were some republicans that voted for their dead parents and spouses. could that be stopped. I suppose but guess what, that subset of the 60 is even smaller. All the other instances were people setting out to effect some small local election through fraud. None of which would have been prevented by making voting more difficult.

Republicans should apply the same logic to voting that they do to gun laws. Why make changes to the laws when there are laws on the books. And the instances that do occur can’t be stopped with more laws anyway so why create more restrictions for the honest voters.

[nevergaveitathought]

tiny good luck

but you are knocking your head against a very dull intransigent brick wall

[1blackman1]

Hundreds on millions of votes cast. Right wing Heritage found 63 fraudulent votes. It’s pretty clear who the dullard is for believing election or voter fraud is a thing.

[Charley3]

“However, that doesn't change the fact that 30% of Americans believe Biden stole the election. That's down from 40%“

You can’t fix stupid. Trumpies will believe anything the Orange Turd tells them to. It’s a phenomenon that I just don’t get and never will.

Nikki Haley 2024!!

[farmstud60]

Originally Posted by 1blackman1

Hundreds on millions of votes cast. Right wing Heritage found 63 fraudulent votes. It’s pretty clear who the dullard is for believing election or voter fraud is a thing.

The problem is that without voter ID it is possible to rig elections and almost impossible to prove fraud as the rules can easily coverup the fraud.

[1blackman1]

Originally Posted by farmstud60

The problem is that without voter ID it is possible to rig elections and almost impossible to prove fraud as the rules can easily coverup the fraud.

Except it hasn’t happened with hundreds of millions of votes cast. You’re stuck on a solution for something that has not been the problem. Heritage, about as right wing as they come, found 63 instances from elections going back to 2018 or so (I think one was 2016). So out of literally hundreds of millions of people going to polls and voting, you have told yourself that the solution to preventing that 63 is voter ID.

Read Heritage’s findings. You see that Voter ID would have maybe stopped only a couple. All of the folks that illegally voted had ID, that wasn’t the issue.

Just because you believe something doesn’t make it a fact. Republicans have told themselves the same lie so long they believe it must be true but the proof is in the pudding. They can’t substantiate their assertion in any election. Voter fraud is almost non-existent. But the recommended solutions don’t even solve the nearly non-existent problem. So what on earth could it really be for?

[farmstud60]

Originally Posted by 1blackman1

Except it hasn’t happened with hundreds of millions of votes cast. You’re stuck on a solution for something that has not been the problem. Heritage, about as right wing as they come, found 63 instances from elections going back to 2018 or so (I think one was 2016). So out of literally hundreds of millions of people going to polls and voting, you have told yourself that the solution to preventing that 63 is voter ID.

Read Heritage’s findings. You see that Voter ID would have maybe stopped only a couple. All of the folks that illegally voted had ID, that wasn’t the issue.

Just because you believe something doesn’t make it a fact. Republicans have told themselves the same lie so long they believe it must be true but the proof is in the pudding. They can’t substantiate their assertion in any election. Voter fraud is almost non-existent. But the recommended solutions don’t even solve the nearly non-existent problem. So what on earth could it really be for?

More nonsense posted by you. Your side rigs the rules, prevents changes to make the system honest, then claim there is no fraud.

[1blackman1]

Uh huh.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by eccieuser9500

What the fuck does that mean? The grand scheme is the founding of the Republic. Even with recency bias; doesn't make sense with what you wrote. Sir.

You think with your heart and I admire you for that. I on the other hand think with my TI calculator and Excel spreadsheets.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

tiny good luck

but you are knocking your head against a very dull intransigent brick wall

Yes nevergaveitathought, Blackman is a tough nut to crack. From his post above he believes Republicans are stupid and more inclined to violate election laws and pass unfair election laws than Democrats. However I believe this can all be overcome with logic and love. I may not have time this evening, but I shall endeavor to rebut him, point by point. Well at least as to the points that support my case. And if that doesn’t work, do you remember the old saying, “If you love something, set it free, and if it doesn’t come back, hunt it down and kill it.”

P.S. That last part’s a joke. Blackman’s one of our best left of center contributors and I wish him a happy and long life. (This is where I’m working on the love part in “logic and love”)

[eccieuser9500]

Originally Posted by Tiny

You think with your heart and I admire you for that. I on the other hand think with my TI calculator and Excel spreadsheets.

At least I use my own body parts to think.











Even under the influence.

[eccieuser9500]

Duplicate

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by eccieuser9500

At least I use my own body parts to think.

Even under the influence.

Good one! I can’t stop laughing, and I’m not under the influence