White Lies

[Roark]

In so much as our lies reflect on our shame determines the shade of our
deception. Of course those adept at denying their own consiousness, of which there are many, a different world may apply.
Those more attached to humanity are more sensitive to these issues....

[Clerkenwell]

Originally Posted by Roark

In so much as our lies reflect on our shame determines the shade of our
deception. Of course those adept at denying their own consiousness, of which there are many, a different world may apply.
Those more attached to humanity are more sensitive to these issues....

Speechless

[Schrödinger's cat]

Hi All,
Long time lurker with time to kill…

Interesting topic – thanks PJ.

In general, I do think that we justify our white lies as being told in the person’s best interest. And most white lies come to naught. But not all white lies end up in the circular file – and that is the problem.

For example, if your SO, wife, friend (you name it) is a horrible cook and in an effort to not hurt their feelings you lie about their cooking – fine – as long as you are the only one eating it. The problem comes when your friend takes your favorite 9-layer sweet pea casserole to work and people start commenting about (the truth of it). Your friend is hurt by the reality that they can’t cook and that you lied to them (or weren’t honest with them – however you like to spin it).

I agree with Altcomedy when he says that, “…not telling the white lie can be pretty liberating”. He wrote of telling friends the truth about not getting together. Although a white lie might seem nice and appropriate – the truth allows others to change their plans to do something else. Maybe not exactly what they wanted to do – but I suspect far better than waiting and hoping for something that is not going to happen.

In many ways I think this comes to the issue of diplomacy that FLWrite spoke of. Some people are better than others and those with little diplomacy either say the wrong thing or revert to a lie.

Although WTF used farting, I will use breath as an example. We’ve all encountered people with bad breath and although seemingly harmless (well, it depends…) – we don’t say much. Even when asked the question “I’ve got a date coming up and does my breath smell OK?” You could offer tic-tacs or comment in some way that is nice or you could say what George Carlin said in one of his monologues, “Anyone can have bad breath, Marge, but you could knock a buzzard off a shit wagon.” Or you can lie. However, the lie doesn’t do anyone any good in this case.

But what has brought me out of lurker status is WTF reference to evolution? I honestly fail to see the connection or how this answers PJ’s query.

All animals are capable of deception. An excellent example of this is mimicry and the Viceroy butterfly (it looks like the Monarch which helps it from being eaten). This is highly adaptive and selected for in successive generations (the hallmark of evolution), but is this “lying”?

The reason for my confusion is that although evolution clearly shapes our capacities (loosely stated), it does not necessary predict or force a given behavior. Example in point – humans are clearly capable of aggression, but most of us (clearly not all) can control that urge (or be forced to control it). The capacity remains, but so does the capacity to subordinate that behavior. If you are arguing that evolution has provided us with the capacity to lie – I am OK with that. If you are arguing that evolution has shaped us to lie…well then I am sorry to disagree.

Thanks for reading this far.

Back to my cocoa pebbles and chardonnay. There is a small lie in there somewhere…

Schrödinger's cat

[FLWrite]

Originally Posted by Schrödinger's cat

...If you are arguing that evolution has provided us with the capacity to lie – I am OK with that. ...

I'm not. Evolution gave us Hillary Clinton.

[FLWrite]

Originally Posted by WTF

... isn't it then a battle between lies and diplomacy? People not blessed with the art of diplomacy are then faced with a dilemma and from what I have read the really good liars are winning!

Yes, I suppose this is a correct resolution; however, "battle" would imply both sides struggle for the same prize. I personally don't believe that. The complications of my lies are motivation enough for me to avoid them; thus, I think for me that avoiding white lies altogether has the benefit of avoiding Sir Scott's "tangled web." More simply, a life free of deception might be its own reward whereas the "white liar" struggles for, as you prove, power or victory over another.

Nice thread, PeeJay.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Schrödinger's cat

Hi All,

Originally Posted by Schrödinger's cat

If you are arguing that evolution has provided us with the capacity to lie – I am OK with that. If you are arguing that evolution has shaped us to lie…well then I am sorry to disagree.

I fail to see the difference.

We all lie. For what ever reason, we all lie. Some more than others, some way more than others!


I do not care for them personally (hopefully that answers PJ's question) but I do wonder if they are so bad , how come they are so prevalent?

I think it is evolution, thats all.

Originally Posted by FLWrite

Yes, I suppose this is a correct resolution; however, "battle" would imply both sides struggle for the same prize. I personally don't believe that. The complications of my lies are motivation enough for me to avoid them; thus, I think for me that avoiding white lies altogether has the benefit of avoiding Sir Scott's "tangled web." More simply, a life free of deception might be its own reward whereas the "white liar" struggles for, as you prove, power or victory over another.

I think we are discussing macro vs. micro. Two different bears. Probably not what PJ had in mind.

[oden]

A lie to preserve love or to be respectful is a white lie; to promote another lie is deceitful. A lie to protect yourself is always a lie. Just my opinion.

[discreetgent]

Originally Posted by oden

A lie to preserve love or to be respectful is a white lie. A lie to protect yourself is always a lie.

An interesting approach, but I would think that the two criteria are not mutually exclusive. A lie could be both to preserve love/be respectful and to protect yourself.

[Camille]

I agree with DG's coment above but that's when you get into some very grey area. I'm not sure that's as much a white lie as not knowing how to communicate something that really does need communicating.

WTF, I don't really understand what you are getting at when you say the following about lies:

"I do not care for them personally (hopefully that answers PJ's question) but I do wonder if they are so bad , how come they are so prevalent? "

Smoking is really bad for people but it's also very prevalent. Are you talking about people's reactions to it (such as this thread, where we are saying it happens but without necessarily advocating it?)

I think the thing with lies is that we have become used to miscommunicating, to a certain degree,and basically that's what a lie boils down to. Several white lies over time can have just the same eventual effect as one whopping big lie that causes more damage than the others put together. I think generally, people to tend the think the fomer is miscommunication and they accept that (to some degree as I said above) whereas the latter is typically views as someone being deliberately obtuse. For myself, I'd be feel more able to listen to someone who had told one flat out lie in the name of self-preservation that had than I would someone who had told loads of smaller white lies over time. A communication bump is one thing...an ongoing communication failure is another altogeher. Others would feel differently, pehaps as though things were still salvagable, with the latter....

C x

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Camille

WTF, I don't really understand what you are getting at when you say the following about lies:

"I do not care for them personally (hopefully that answers PJ's question) but I do wonder if they are so bad , how come they are so prevalent? "

Smoking is really bad for people but it's also very prevalent. Are you talking about people's reactions to it (such as this thread, where we are saying it happens but without necessarily advocating it?)

People stop doing things when their (perceived) cost is greater than the pleasure it brings. People smoke because it brings them more pleasure to smoke than to not smoke. Same with lying.

For Christ sake we start off telling little kids about the Tooth Fairy and Santa Clause. We derive pleasure from lying to the little buggers, not so much fun telling a teenager that same bs, so we don't do it. It is basic rehab recovery 101 , people quit doing things when either the mental , physical or economical cost out-weigh the pleasure derived from doing the activity.

Some folks will never quit drinking or smoking because of that fact, even if it kills them. They would rather die than to quit.
I do not see lying as that big a deal, in that it is like any other body function. What I would advocate is trying to learn why certain people lie more than others (Histrionics, Narcissistic folks) and live one's life according to that reality. The fact that we all lie is indisputable, we all have our own justifications.

I am more concerned with my gullibility to a lie than my own lies, after all, I have already justified my lies just as everyone else has justified their own.

All we are really talking about is matching up each others justifications for telling a fib and I find that changes over time and circumstance.

[Camille]

Easy tiger. I was asking you if you could explain. I wasn't asking if you could justify...

C x

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Camille

Easy tiger. I was asking you if you could explain. I wasn't asking if you could justify...

C x

I was explaining why we all justify. Not everybody smokes but everybody lies so your smoking comparison was moot.
We appear to just be discussing our preference for different brands of smoke is all.

We gather with our own brand of smokers and then dish on the cigar tokers! I find it funny is all.

[Laurentius]

Seems to me there are variants of these things.

Is lying wrong?

So if by telling a lie -- even a real whopper -- to prevent someone from detonating a nuke in Dallas, am I being a horrible person? Maybe I would be a better person and more at peace with myself if I let them get vaporized?

I used an extreme example to illustrate a point. That point is this: there is a hierarchy of values.

A lesser wrong is permissible in order to prevent a greater wrong.

The problem we run into is over-elevating the "wrongness" of telling a truth that hurts someone's feelings.

Sometimes, hurting someone's feelings in the short-term improves their wellbeing for the long-term.

Failing to point something out can deny them an opportunity for self-improvement.

I am NOT saying that we should be gratuitously brutal with each other. Usually, people who call themselves "brutally frank" are using frankness as an excuse to justify needless brutality with a one-sided "truth." Truths can be told, usually, in unhurtful or supportive ways.

However, there are definitely times in a hierarchy of value where lies of all sorts -- even serious whoppers -- are the lesser of evils.

[Camille]

Originally Posted by WTF

I was explaining why we all justify.

I thought you were asking a question, not providing an answer. Misunderstanding.

[Camille]

Originally Posted by Laurentius

Seems to me there are variants of these things.

Is lying wrong?

So if by telling a lie -- even a real whopper -- to prevent someone from detonating a nuke in Dallas, am I being a horrible person? Maybe I would be a better person and more at peace with myself if I let them get vaporized?

I used an extreme example to illustrate a point. That point is this: there is a hierarchy of values.

A lesser wrong is permissible in order to prevent a greater wrong.

The problem we run into is over-elevating the "wrongness" of telling a truth that hurts someone's feelings.

Sometimes, hurting someone's feelings in the short-term improves their wellbeing for the long-term.

Failing to point something out can deny them an opportunity for self-improvement.

I am NOT saying that we should be gratuitously brutal with each other. Usually, people who call themselves "brutally frank" are using frankness as an excuse to justify needless brutality with a one-sided "truth." Truths can be told, usually, in unhurtful or supportive ways.

However, there are definitely times in a hierarchy of value where lies of all sorts -- even serious whoppers -- are the lesser of evils.

Very well said

C x