E-books: To own or not to own...

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Anna Symon

This can only be an applicable analogy if the blacksmith saw an increase in horseshoe-buying customers owning cars as well. Why would the blacksmith give away for free what he could charge customers for (i.e. the customer would need both horseshoes and tires)?

A blacksmith that did not get into the tire selling business would not have a job for long.

Originally Posted by Anna Symon

Similarly, why would amazon continue to give away e-books with every hard copy book purchase when more and more people are owning kindles?
They think the product is so good that they will be able to convert book readers and my guess is that the profit margin will be much higher on e-books. Books are going the way of horse and buggy.
No different than a tobacco company giving away ciggy's to teenagers!

:-)

Originally Posted by Anna Symon

(yet incurring the wrath of many customers).

:-)

You answered your own question.

[Guest053011]

Originally Posted by Anna Symon

I love the feel of the pages, the smell of the paper and ink

I think there's another element to the tactile feel of printed material.

Computer files are invisible, and forgotten the moment you're done with them. They disappear into a heap of electronic rubbish that does nothing more than eat up memory.

When I go to the home of an avid reader, they take great pride in the books they have read. Their bookshelves represent their intellectual journey though life, it is a reflection of their mind and spirit. You can learn a lot about a person going through their book shelf, and I have always felt a tingle of pride when someone visits my home for the first time and says "Wow, your book collection is AMAZING!"

In it's own way, it's a deeply personal reflection of your identity. I know people who have wept when their homes have become flooded and their books were destroyed.

Antique books in particular have a history. When I buy one, I feel I have taken on a responsibility, that I have become a guardian, amongst a chain who came before me. There is an abstract sense of connection to all the people who have held that book. For example, I was given a gift once - a first edition of Winnie the Pooh. In the cover is a hand written note dating to 1921, sending warm thoughts to the person it was being given to. I think of all that has happened to the world since that time, and feel an odd connection to it's mysterious and unspoken history.

I also recall a childhood book I read often from my country of origin. It was a wonderful feeling to be able to pass that book on to my sibling's children, hoping that they too would treasure it, and continue to pass it on. Physical books build connections between people, ones you know, and ones you never met.

[..]

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

When I go to the home of an avid reader, they take great pride in the books they have read. Their bookshelves represent their intellectual journey though life, it is a reflection of their mind and spirit. You can learn a lot about a person going through their book shelf

hehe, that's true people who keep their books can be very easily classified, analyzed and characterized.

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

In it's own way, it's a deeply personal reflection of your identity. I know people who have wept when their homes have become flooded and their books were destroyed.

Those are weak, western middle-class people. I remember visiting Ernst von Glasersfeld after a fire had destroyed his totality of books. (And he had a great library!).
What surprised me was that he had exactly the some attitude, I have towards books. In a way he regretted the loss, but overall he was more than happy about having lost all his books.

Books are great to read, but hoarding them is a burden (not just a dust-collection). Books you own end up owning you.

[..]

BTW, more on-topic. Almost no book I've read recently is available for the Kindle -- so I can't really contribute much here.

[Guest053011]

Originally Posted by ..

Those are weak, western middle-class people. I remember visiting Ernst von Glasersfeld after a fire had destroyed his totality of books. (And he had a great library!).

What surprised me was that he had exactly the some attitude, I have towards books. In a way he regretted the loss, but overall he was more than happy about having lost all his books.

Books are great to read, but hoarding them is a burden (not just a dust-collection). Books you own end up owning you.

There is much that can be argued regarding your "weak minded" comment, but that didn't strike me as much as the western middle class generalization.

I have noticed no correlation between economic class and love of the literature they own - the poor treasure it because it's acces to the world otherwise unattainable. The rich have some of the most impressive collections I've ever seen.

I noticed the same love of books in Israel, Japan, Iranian households and Eastern culture.

[..]

"He confused ownership and access. He wanted ownership when what he should have wanted was access. This was the essence of our disagreement." -- Chloe Bancroft

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

There is much that can be argued regarding your "weak minded" comment, but that didn't strike me as much as the western middle class generalization.

I have noticed no correlation between economic class and love of the literature they own - the poor treasure it because it's acces to the world otherwise unattainable. The rich have some of the most impressive collections I've ever seen.

See, this is exactly "weak minded, western middle class". poor or rich doesn't really matter, these fools are all "Bildungsphilister". and they all lack "μεγαλοψυχία".

An erudite like "Joseph Justus Scaliger" never wants to own literature but wants access to the best and most pristine material available. And due to his or her "μεγαλοψυχία" s/he is able to bear even the most deasterous loss of literature with utmost loftiness and calmness like Ernst von Glaserfeld or many ancient authors.

Owning literature is an incredible burden.

[Anna Symon]

WTF- I am tickled pink each time I read this thread because the image of a blacksmith selling tires amuses me greatly! :-) Thank you for sharing this analogy, it cracks me up!

Originally Posted by WTF

A blacksmith that did not get into the tire selling business would not have a job for long.

Originally Posted by WTF

They think the product is so good that they will be able to convert book readers and my guess is that the profit margin will be much higher on e-books. Books are going the way of horse and buggy.
No different than a tobacco company giving away ciggy's to teenagers!

This is true. Similar to the cigarette industry giving away promotional free cigarettes to teens, it makes sense for Amazon to give away free promotional Kindle materials to hook customers. However, once they have customers hooked, it would make no sense for them to continue this trend. Companies do not continue to just give their product away for free- or at least not at the same rate as they initially would- once the promotional material has pulled in customers.

Originally Posted by WTF

You answered your own question.

Just because a company annoys some of its customers, that doesn't necessarily mean they will change. I would guess, based on consumer reports I have read, that most people at some point report being dissatisfied with one product or another. Yet, that does not always spark a change in the product or the company...and sometimes not even their profits for that matter.

Economists always state that demand drives supply and I agree in the broad sense. However, it seems that nowadays consumers (the demand) will often settle for less than desirable products/business practices and suppliers know this. For example, if I go to the grocery store to buy cereal and I am looking to buy a specific brand that was having a 2-for-1 special but I find out that special is no longer going on, I will probably still buy the cereal. I am not going to drive to a dozen different stores in the hopes that I can find that deal. Similarly, if I buy a Kindle and soon after the free e-book promotion ceases, I will probably be a little annoyed but not to the point of not using the product.

While we might have some control over the broad ideas of supply (our grocery stores don't often sell crickets or fish eyes) we don't have that same control over detail (such as brands) once they are established. Whether we settle because of price or hassle of finding another comparable product or something else entirely, consumers have backed themselves into a corner in which we don't have as much power over the details of what we buy.

[Anna Symon]

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

I think there's another element to the tactile feel of printed material.

Computer files are invisible, and forgotten the moment you're done with them. They disappear into a heap of electronic rubbish that does nothing more than eat up memory.

So very true, electronic sources are eternal and yet ephemeral at the same time. They might exist in the network forever, but we often forget about them quickly.

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

When I go to the home of an avid reader, they take great pride in the books they have read. Their bookshelves represent their intellectual journey though life, it is a reflection of their mind and spirit. You can learn a lot about a person going through their book shelf, and I have always felt a tingle of pride when someone visits my home for the first time and says "Wow, your book collection is AMAZING!"

In it's own way, it's a deeply personal reflection of your identity. I know people who have wept when their homes have become flooded and their books were destroyed.

I am the same way. I adore my book collection and I find that browsing through someone's library can often lead to learning intimate details about who they are. It is almost like a more publicly accessible diary about their beliefs, thoughts, interests, etc.

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

Antique books in particular have a history. When I buy one, I feel I have taken on a responsibility, that I have become a guardian, amongst a chain who came before me. There is an abstract sense of connection to all the people who have held that book. For example, I was given a gift once - a first edition of Winnie the Pooh. In the cover is a hand written note dating to 1921, sending warm thoughts to the person it was being given to. I think of all that has happened to the world since that time, and feel an odd connection to it's mysterious and unspoken history.

I also recall a childhood book I read often from my country of origin. It was a wonderful feeling to be able to pass that book on to my sibling's children, hoping that they too would treasure it, and continue to pass it on. Physical books build connections between people, ones you know, and ones you never met.

I couldn't agree with you more. Antique books are a passion of mine, in particular antique children books (I love the 1st ed Winnie the Pooh, it is one of my favorites). I have a first edition Brothers Grimm- admittedly not very child oriented- that I absolutely adore!

Many of the books I have in my collection have inscriptions on the inside cover and I find that comforting, evoking a feeling of connectedness with someone I've never met and who has long since passed away. Someone loved this book, and the person who owned it was loved by those that took the time to write a personal message in it. These small details are an amazing connection to our history. When we give a book to someone and write in the cover, we are creating the possibility that someone many years from now, will find that book in an antique store/estate sale/etc. and find a connection with us.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by Anna Symon

This is true. Similar to the cigarette industry giving away promotional free cigarettes to teens, it makes sense for Amazon to give away free promotional Kindle materials to hook customers. However, once they have customers hooked, it would make no sense for them to continue this trend. Companies do not continue to just give their product away for free- or at least not at the same rate as they initially would- once the promotional material has pulled in customers.

A better analogy is companies giving away razors to get people to buy their blades.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

A better analogy is companies giving away razors to get people to buy their blades.

A somewhat archaic analogy. How about a cell company giving away a smartphone to sign them up for the plan?

[Camille]

Originally Posted by Anna Symon

http://www.economist.com/blogs/babba.../11/steal_book

*I should confess right up front that I love hard copy books. I love the feel of the pages, the smell of the paper and ink (and potentially the coffee that was spilled on the cover ages ago). So, while I like the idea of the kindle's (and others of its kind) compact/travel friendly usability, in the end I just love the sensation of a hard copy book between my fingers. So, I haven't caved and bought a kindle yet.

And this article isn't really helping to change my mind anytime soon...

The article brought up the good point that we don't really "own" this type of electronic media (e-books). We don't have the right to sell it or pass it along to a friend in the same way we would if had we bought its hard copy counterpart. I never really thought of this, but now that it has been brought to my attention, I don't really like the idea of it. If I purchase something, I want the rights to do with it what I please (within reason, obviously). For me, one of the great joys of books is the ability to pass them along to a friend once I'm done with them. But with these devices, you can't pass anything along without giving them the kindle and effectively losing your entire reading source.

So what if Amazon will let me loan out an e-book "for a whole 14 days. Just once, ever, per title. If the publisher allows it." That seems like a horrible marketing strategy. When I see something with so many limitations on it, I am more wary of the product (*think of those pharmaceutical ads that say, "ask your Dr. about brand X... unless you are a living, breathing, human being, in which case brand X may not be suitable for you"*).

I understand the internet and its litany of networking opportunities opens up these e-books to be more widely shared than conventional books. But there has to be some happy medium where buyers aren't completely devoid of privileges and publishers/authors aren't completely devoid of profits.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Are you happy with you kindle/ipad/etc?

I'm divided on this issue.
I'd love a kindle for travel purposes. It just makes sense.
It would also mean I could buy at anytime in any place...so there is definitely a convenience point. However, if I buy a book I will eventually either lend it out or give it away..and I'd miss the pleasure that comes with that and of browsing in bookstores (I rarely buy online). So for me, the kindle wouldn't altogether replace the more conventional way of buying and reading books..it would add to it.

C x

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

A better analogy is companies giving away razors to get people to buy their blades.

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

A somewhat archaic analogy. How about a cell company giving away a smartphone to sign them up for the plan?

Wow! Chuckles is now our barometer on what is hip in pop culture.

Originally Posted by Camille

I'm divided on this issue.
I'd love a kindle for travel purposes. It just makes sense.
It would also mean I could buy at anytime in any place...so there is definitely a convenience point. However, if I buy a book I will eventually either lend it out or give it away..and I'd miss the pleasure that comes with that and of browsing in bookstores (I rarely buy online). So for me, the kindle wouldn't altogether replace the more conventional way of buying and reading books..it would add to it.

C x

I enjoy that social aspect as well

[Guest042611]

Kindles sound like a good idea if you're a student and are constantly buying books that you might only read one time (if at all, haha!). I've always thought that and never done it for some reason.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

Wow! Chuckles is now our barometer on what is hip in pop culture.

Damn! We are screwed.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by Natalie

Kindles sound like a good idea if you're a student and are constantly buying books that you might only read one time (if at all, haha!). I've always thought that and never done it for some reason.

One of these days, like maybe when the Feds cut off the gravy train to higher ed, schools will get smart and include text books in tuition and just license their delivery via kindles.