Being Prepared--What to Do When the Cops Show Up?

[Valentine Michael]

Let's assume that you encounter the police in connection witih the hobby. Cops think they know what's happening but don't have hard evidence. Say, they knock on the motel door while you're in the room with a provider or stop you after you leave an amp or pull you over with a street walker in your car. They ask you questions. How do you respond? Don't answer anything and ask for a lawyer? Seems like this is asking to be arrested. Prepared story of something plausible and not illegal? Say, just meeting a friend or just got a massage or just giving her a ride. Seems like more risk of saying something that could be used against you if charges are pressed. Something in between where you don't answer the question but don't tell a story? Seems like I hear stories of guys who get hassled or threatened by the cops when they don't have evidence of crime but the guy is not confrontational, acts scared shitless and deferential and gets off with a warning. What should I know now and be prepared ahead of time to avoid arrest or if arrested, avoid conviction in these kind of situations?

[Capt. Lincoln F. Stern]

Without sounding like a smart ass if they say something like "we know what goes on in there" (referring to an AMP type place) you should say " really? which girl gave you a massage?"

[ShysterJon]

American Civil Liberties Union, "Know Your Rights: What To Do If You're Stopped By Police"

ACLU Bust Card

We rely on the police to keep us safe and treat us all fairly, regardless of race, ethnicity, national origin or religion. The ACLU Bust Card provides tips for interacting with police and understanding your rights.

Note: Some state laws may vary. Separate rules apply at checkpoints and when entering the U.S. (including at airports).

YOUR RIGHTS
- You have the right to remain silent. If you wish to exercise that right, say so out loud.
- You have the right to refuse to consent to a search of yourself, your car or your home.
- If you are not under arrest, you have the right to calmly leave.
- You have the right to a lawyer if you are arrested. Ask for one immediately.

YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES
- Do stay calm and be polite.
- Do not interfere with or obstruct the police.
- Do not lie or give false documents.
- Do prepare yourself and your family in case you are arrested.
- Do remember the details of the encounter.
- Do file a written complaint or call your local ACLU if you feel your rights have been violated.

IF YOU ARE STOPPED FOR QUESTIONING
Stay calm. Don't run. Don't argue, resist or obstruct the police, even if you are innocent or police are violating your rights. Keep your hands where police can see them.
Ask if you are free to leave. If the officer says yes, calmly and silently walk away. If you are under arrest, you have a right to know why.
You have the right to remain silent and cannot be punished for refusing to answer questions. If you wish to remain silent, tell the officer out loud. In some states, you must give your name if asked to identify yourself.
You do not have to consent to a search of yourself or your belongings, but police may "pat down" your clothing if they suspect a weapon. You should not physically resist, but you have the right to refuse consent for any further search. If you do consent, it can affect you later in court.

IF YOU ARE STOPPED IN YOUR CAR
Stop the car in a safe place as quickly as possible. Turn off the car, turn on the internal light, open the window part way and place your hands on the wheel.
Upon request, show police your driver's license, registration and proof of insurance.
If an officer asks to look inside your car, you can refuse to consent to the search. But if police believe your car contains evidence of a crime, your car can be searched without your consent.
Both drivers and passengers have the right to remain silent. If you are a passenger, you can ask if you are free to leave. If the officer says yes, sit silently or calmly leave. Even if the officer says no, you have the right to remain silent.

IF YOU ARE ARRESTED
Do not resist arrest, even if you believe the arrest is unfair.
Say you wish to remain silent and ask for a lawyer immediately. Don't give any explanations or excuses. If you can't pay for a lawyer, you have the right to a free one. Don't say anything, sign anything or make any decisions without a lawyer.
You have the right to make a local phone call. The police cannot listen if you call a lawyer.
Prepare yourself and your family in case you are arrested. Memorize the phone numbers of your family and your lawyer. Make emergency plans if you have children or take medication.

[Stag]

Valentine, I understand the sentiment of your original post, but ANYTHING you say can only lead to trouble -- i.e. "can be used against you in a court of law." Don't get cutesy, or try to deflect suspicion with an "innocent" sounding response -- they suspect you already, and they can conflate any such remark into a grand scheme to obstruct justice. When they ask you a question -- any question (other than your name and maybe your address) -- just say you don't want to answer any questions, that you choose to remain silent. If they've got enough to hang you without trying to cajole you into saying something, it won't matter that you remain silent, and remaining silent won't hurt you. If they don't have enough to detain, they may try to hold you up for an agonizingly long time trying to scare you out of remaining silent, but they don't want a bad arrest to screw up their day with the extra paperwork it will generate, so once again, it won't hurt you that you invoke your right to remain silent.

In an unfriendly encounter with an officer, the ONLY sentence out of your mouth should be, "Am I free to go?"

[ShysterJon]

Good advice from Stag. I don't think I've ever had a client hurt themself by not talking to the police. On the other hand, I've had thousands of clients put their own head in a noose by talking to the police.

[roxy28]

well in my opinion if they show up and you are with someone just dont open the door... they cant come into your home can they? or your motel? ..... not sure, but i wouldnt do it! If you get stopped in your car they can only prove where you were driving from if they saw you... you dont have to tell them anything else right?

[ShysterJon]

Originally Posted by roxy28

well in my opinion if they show up and you are with someone just dont open the door... they cant come into your home can they? or your motel? ..... not sure, but i wouldnt do it! If you get stopped in your car they can only prove where you were driving from if they saw you... you dont have to tell them anything else right?

I think this thread covers fairly thoroughly what information a person who's detained by the police is required to reveal. Regarding your questions about the separate issue of searches, the following thread may shed some light:

"Motel 6 forest by Josey close call, cops cracking down"

[naughtynatale]

Watch this. A bit lengthy and he talks really fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

[Valentine Michael]

Thanks for the responses. I get that not talking is the best strategy to avoid a conviction. Do you really think it is also the best strategy to avoid arrest? Just being arrrsted for prostitution would be a major problem. Of course conviction would be worse, but maybe only double the pain of an arrest. I think i would trade a slightly worse chance of avoiding conviction for a better chance of avoiding arrest. given the importance of avoiding arrest, do you still think saying nothing is the best strategy in the situations I described?

[ShysterJon]

Originally Posted by Valentine Michael

Thanks for the responses. I get that not talking is the best strategy to avoid a conviction. Do you really think it is also the best strategy to avoid arrest? Just being arrrsted for prostitution would be a major problem. Of course conviction would be worse, but maybe only double the pain of an arrest. I think i would trade a slightly worse chance of avoiding conviction for a better chance of avoiding arrest. given the importance of avoiding arrest, do you still think saying nothing is the best strategy in the situations I described?

I've been wanting to write on this issue for awhile, so here goes.

The phenomenon Valentine Michael describes is stated in an old lawyer's adage: "You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." In other words, you might not be convicted of the offense, but you'll not be spared the indignity, expense, and trouble of being arrested for the offense.

I think VM's question assumes you can say something to a cop to avoid being arrested for prostitution -- that is, without speaking, you'll be arrested, but if you speak, you won't be arrested. What you say can be a lie or the truth. However, as I explain below, I think's it's far more likely that speaking will increase your chances of arrest, not decrease them.

I don't think anyone has written in this thread that remaining silent while being questioned by a cop is the best strategy ONLY to make a CONVICTION for a criminal offense less likely. In my view, remaining silent while being questioned will in all likelihood help a person in ALL STAGES of a criminal case -- arrest, charging, plea bargaining, and trial. Under the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Miranda v. Arizona, a police officer is required to advise a criminal suspect prior to questioning (among other things): "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law." But that doesn't mean that statements you make prior to being Mirandized (that is, before the cop will say he deemed you a suspect in a crime) can't be used against you then and later -- In fact, your voluntary statements can be used against you in all stages of a criminal case, like heavy stones hung around your neck as you walk a path through the criminal justice system.

Bear in mind that a cop should make an arrest because he/she has probable cause that a criminal offense has been committed based on evidence, but in reality a cop will at times make an arrest based on mere suspicion, not evidence. A cop doesn't have to believe you're guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to arrest you. That decision would be made on another day by a judge or jury. All a cop needs to arrest you is a reasonable belief that an offense was or is being committed. (As an aside, in Texas, probable cause is also all a prosecutor needs to charge you with a misdemeanor or a grand jury needs to indict you for a felony.)

To me, the issue is not whether a person should speak -- it's why they should NOT speak. In my view, a detained person should probably not speak because to do so might create evidence (or suspicion in the cop's mind) that may be used as probable cause to arrest them, by the prosecutor or grand jury to charge them, or as evidence in a trial.

STFU Rule No. 1. You probably can't lie convincingly enough to escape arrest, but you can lie unconvincingly enough to get arrested.

Some of you may think: Hey, I'm smarter than a cop. I can make up a story the cop will believe and he won't arrest me. If you think that, you might as well have 'ARREST ME' tattooed on your forehead (or 'BORN LOSER' tattooed on your bicep) because cops listen to people lie all day and they're pretty good at sifting the wheat from the chaff. While you might have a higher I.Q. than the average cop, chances are the cop's bullshit detector works better than the bullshit producer right below your nose.

Something the cop perceived probably caused the cop to start questioning you. (Example: You're in your car on Harry Hines at 2:00 a.m. with your window rolled down, talking to a SW.) Once the encounter begins you probably can't change the cop's perception of what he saw. Chances are you'll only make matters worse by telling him some cock and bull story. (Example: "I stopped to talk to her because she looks like my next-door neighbor.") You could be Stephen Fucking King and you couldn't weave a believable story under the stress. Also, people don't like being lied to -- it pisses them off. Again, the cop will probably know you're lying. So if you lie you'll not just have a cop in your face -- you might have a pissed-off cop in your face.

STFU Rule No. 2. Don't tell the truth because the cop is not your friend: He's the guy who wants to bust your balls.

Some people think that being cooperative and truthful to the police will lessen their chance of being arrested. They may even naively think that if they volunteer information the cop will think they're a swell guy and won't arrest them. But I can assure you that if a cop has detained you to question you under the suspicion of having committed a criminal offense, if you speak you are not helping to escape arrest -- you are helping the cop gather enough evidence to arrest you. As I've written before, if you're involved in the hobby, a cop is not talking to you to help you -- he's talking to you to gather evidence to be used against you. Under these circumstances, the truth will not set you free -- it may may put your ass in Sterrett.


Think of old WW II movies where a soldier would be captured and only give his "name, rank, and serial number." That's like what you should do if a cop questions you. If you're not driving, you're only required to produce ID. That's it. You do NOT have to answer the cop's questions. If you're driving, you're only required to produce ID and proof of insurance. (If you're unlucky enough to live in a state other than Texas, you might be required to produce your registration.) A driver does not have to answer a cop's questions, either.

Are we clear on this, boys and girls?

STFU.

[ShysterJon]

I started a new thread on this issue in Coed Discussions-Dallas. The hotlink is in my sig line.

[Smoke2nd]

Naughtynatale posted a very important video.
I was going to post it and then saw it up already.

STFU! thats what you need to know.

Also if they come to your house to talk to you...18 second video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1lo0...eature=related

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by ShysterJon

I've been wanting to write on this issue for awhile, so here goes.

The phenomenon Valentine Michael describes is stated in an old lawyer's adage: "You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." In other words, you might not be convicted of the offense, but you'll not be spared the indignity, expense, and trouble of being arrested for the offense.

I think VM's question assumes you can say something to a cop to avoid being arrested for prostitution -- that is, without speaking, you'll be arrested, but if you speak, you won't be arrested. What you say can be a lie or the truth. However, as I explain below, I think's it's far more likely that speaking will increase your chances of arrest, not decrease them.

I don't think anyone has written in this thread that remaining silent while being questioned by a cop is the best strategy ONLY to make a CONVICTION for a criminal offense less likely. In my view, remaining silent while being questioned will in all likelihood help a person in ALL STAGES of a criminal case -- arrest, charging, plea bargaining, and trial. Under the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Miranda v. Arizona, a police officer is required to advise a criminal suspect prior to questioning (among other things): "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law." But that doesn't mean that statements you make prior to being Mirandized (that is, before the cop will say he deemed you a suspect in a crime) can't be used against you then and later -- In fact, your voluntary statements can be used against you in all stages of a criminal case, like heavy stones hung around your neck as you walk a path through the criminal justice system.

Bear in mind that a cop should make an arrest because he/she has probable cause that a criminal offense has been committed based on evidence, but in reality a cop will at times make an arrest based on mere suspicion, not evidence. A cop doesn't have to believe you're guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to arrest you. That decision would be made on another day by a judge or jury. All a cop needs to arrest you is a reasonable belief that an offense was or is being committed. (As an aside, in Texas, probable cause is also all a prosecutor needs to charge you with a misdemeanor or a grand jury needs to indict you for a felony.)

To me, the issue is not whether a person should speak -- it's why they should NOT speak. In my view, a detained person should probably not speak because to do so might create evidence (or suspicion in the cop's mind) that may be used as probable cause to arrest them, by the prosecutor or grand jury to charge them, or as evidence in a trial.

STFU Rule No. 1. You probably can't lie convincingly enough to escape arrest, but you can lie unconvincingly enough to get arrested.

Some of you may think: Hey, I'm smarter than a cop. I can make up a story the cop will believe and he won't arrest me. If you think that, you might as well have 'ARREST ME' tattooed on your forehead (or 'BORN LOSER' tattooed on your bicep) because cops listen to people lie all day and they're pretty good at sifting the wheat from the chaff. While you might have a higher I.Q. than the average cop, chances are the cop's bullshit detector works better than the bullshit producer right below your nose.

Something the cop perceived probably caused the cop to start questioning you. (Example: You're in your car on Harry Hines at 2:00 a.m. with your window rolled down, talking to a SW.) Once the encounter begins you probably can't change the cop's perception of what he saw. Chances are you'll only make matters worse by telling him some cock and bull story. (Example: "I stopped to talk to her because she looks like my next-door neighbor.") You could be Stephen Fucking King and you couldn't weave a believable story under the stress. Also, people don't like being lied to -- it pisses them off. Again, the cop will probably know you're lying. So if you lie you'll not just have a cop in your face -- you might have a pissed-off cop in your face.

STFU Rule No. 2. Don't tell the truth because the cop is not your friend: He's the guy who wants to bust your balls.

Some people think that being cooperative and truthful to the police will lessen their chance of being arrested. They may even naively think that if they volunteer information the cop will think they're a swell guy and won't arrest them. But I can assure you that if a cop has detained you to question you under the suspicion of having committed a criminal offense, if you speak you are not helping to escape arrest -- you are helping the cop gather enough evidence to arrest you. As I've written before, if you're involved in the hobby, a cop is not talking to you to help you -- he's talking to you to gather evidence to be used against you. Under these circumstances, the truth will not set you free -- it may may put your ass in Sterrett.


Think of old WW II movies where a soldier would be captured and only give his "name, rank, and serial number." That's like what you should do if a cop questions you. If you're not driving, you're only required to produce ID. That's it. You do NOT have to answer the cop's questions. If you're driving, you're only required to produce ID and proof of insurance. (If you're unlucky enough to live in a state other than Texas, you might be required to produce your registration.) A driver does not have to answer a cop's questions, either.

Are we clear on this, boys and girls?

STFU.

IANAL..

I think the advice is right. I think it is deadon as it relates "the hobby" -- if the police are questioning you, their intent is 95%+ not to warn you.

On the other hand I wouldn't say never talk to cops period. Consider you are walking out of a ballgame or concert and your buddy is drunk. You are stopped by a cop. More than likely here all he's concerned about is the buddy isn't going to hurt himself or anyone else. Invoking your right to silence is less helpful than assuring the cop you are putting him in a cab and he isn't driving.

[yesenia]

The less said the better

[Nashvillan]

A very wise attorney once gave me some words of wisdom which I will pass on to you. "You can't catch a fish, if it wont open its mouth".

If any of you sweet, gorgeous, irresistible women are ever in Nashville TN. Look me up and I'll try to give you the welcome wagon tour of our great city.