I can't believe this hasn't been discussed yet

[Rudyard K]

Originally Posted by PaganGuy

Anybody has the right to build anything they want anywhere they want, that is America.

Not true. Not even close to true.

All kinds of things get blocked from being built for all kinds of reasons. There are thousands of rules and regulations that can be used to disallow things from being built...and they are used every day in communities all across the country. And many times, things that appear to be being designed within the confines of the rules...get blocked purely because the community is up in arms, and is willing to go speak in front of the council.

It seems folks here seem to think that free speech is only their free speech. Most of the lawyers know this, but "When the law is against you...argue the facts. When the facts are against you...argue the law". That's what we are seeing in regard to this.

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

Not true. Not even close to true.

All kinds of things get blocked from being built for all kinds of reasons. There are thousands of rules and regulations that can be used to disallow things from being built...and they are used every day in communities all across the country. And many times, things that appear to be being designed within the confines of the rules...get blocked purely because the community is up in arms, and is willing to go speak in front of the council.

It seems folks here seem to think that free speech is only their free speech. Most of the lawyers know this, but "When the law is against you...argue the facts. When the facts are against you...argue the law". That's what we are seeing in regard to this.

there appears to be a couple of possibilities regarding the mosque and its location

1. a tin eared, genuine lack of sensitivity, which when confronted became obstinence and bullheadedness, regardless of the stated goal of bridge building.

2. an understanding of the location and its import, although given the world view of the proposed mosque's adherents, was seen as projecting the dominance of Islam, and giving Islam its rightful place, as Islam means submission and was seen as a tool of conversion. whether or not the principles of this project had any tinge of gloat or truck with the more extreme elements of islam, their ultimate goal is the same, creating the kingdom of Allah in this world by sword or persuasion. This is diametrically opposed to what Christ said when he stated, "my kingdom is not of this world".

as far as a first amendment right..well yeah..so what? obama as the school marm and "the smartest person in the room" schooling us as to the constitution is rather galling. we know that and its not the point. the point is what he then said he will not comment on, because he wont take a stand, the wisdom of the thing.

[Bliss]

Originally Posted by RN1204

Bliss,

Have you read the New Testament? It is not hard to discern that you are likely atheist or agnostic and that you have not read the Bible "to the letter." Work on the Sabbath was not prohibited under the New Covenant. Neither was death at the hand of a man approved of. Take the story of the woman caught in adultery that Christ intervened in the stoning of and did not condemn her for instance.

What the Bible does make explicit is that we do not live under the Old Covenant, and that Judgement passed by men is wrong under the new. Did you read those parts?

Yes I have read the Old Testament as well, before you ask.

Interestingly enough, the Muslims will not allow the building of the third Jewish temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, as it is under Islamic control. Fancy them wanting to build a mosque on OUR soil where thousands were killed by those under the influence of Islamic teaching.

I never advocated any religion over the other, if that is what you were implying. I simply pointed out what has been birthed from the one in question, but I am sure you already knew that.

One last thing, Women are considered inferior in the Muslim religion. I am sure that would be appealing to you, wouldn't it?

Ciao

Yes, I have read the bible.....old and new testament. And my example was just one of many that exists throughout the bible. My point is, you can take the words of the bible, the Qu'ran, etc and and individuals will draw different conclusions and thoughts about what the message is. That is part of the beauty of scripture......what it provokes in us at that moment in our life that becomes meaningful. It's EXTREMISM of these beliefs that causes harm. Individuals and groups that take it upon themselves to enforce what they see as "God's will." They are self appointed prophets. I may look to scripture for comfort and guidance, they look to scripture to justify their feelings of anger and hatred. The mind can twist things to fit the emotion of the moment. I thought Catcher in the Rye was a very thought provoking enjoyable novel......mark david chapman read it and killed John Lennon.

We have the right to protest against, and vehemently disagree with issues regarding government. Tim McVeigh took that to the EXTREME, and he and his band of idiots decided it was their job to show the country the error of it's ways.

A mentally ill person who reads the bible or the Qu'ran or materials dealing with governmental tyranny obsessively is a recipe for disaster. If that person happens to have great charisma and the ability to network with and lead other like minded people......disaster.

And of course, any religion that sees a woman as inferior is not appealing to me. I am a Christian, but do not associate myself with a specific religion. The majority of organized religion plays on the fear and guilt of their members. I've never been surrounded by more hypocrites that I have when attending church. My relationship with God is personal and private and is not confined to a building with a cross on top.

[pjorourke]

Four points:

1) It is a measure of the greatness of this country that building this a block from Ground Zero wold be allowed by the authorities (whether the public agrees or not). We are a nation of laws and it is a legal building, consistent with local zoning laws. In contrast, can you picture Saudi Arabia allowing a fundamentalist Baptist outreach center to be built in Mecca?

2) Point 1) being said, the people behind this project are either trying to inflame the situation or just fucking rude to do it where they are.

3) I doubt the building trade unions in NYC will ever let the thing get built.

4) If it is built, some nut job will blow it up.

[oden]

In situations like these I think it is important to pierce the veil of deceit and look clearly at what is really occurring. An aggressive movement hiding behind the facade of a popular world religion, that is funded by outside know terrorists or regimes that are hostile to the U.S. and our interests do not and should not enjoy the same privileges as a pure religious entity. Add to that the stated beliefs of the would be developer that America is responsible for 9/11 and it is not hard to believe that this is more a war of cultures than religion. That we would allow a movement whose method of operation is to utilize such fronts as Mosques and Massdras to spread propaganda, recruit and train potential terrorists is preposterous.

We have the legitimate right to see the people, purpose and money in this project is thoroughly vetted. The propaganda value for terrorists around the world would be huge if they are allowed to lay their marker at the sight of their greatest victory.

I'll give you an example from history. I'll bet the Indians were surprised when they found the Missions built by the Spanish were about more than spreading Catholicism.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

It seems folks here seem to think that free speech is only their free speech. Most of the lawyers know this, but "When the law is against you...argue the facts. When the facts are against you...argue the law". That's what we are seeing in regard to this.

RK, actually the quote goes something like this:

"When the law is in your favor, pound the law; when the facts are in your favor, pound the facts. When neither the facts nor the law is in your favor, pound the table."

Seems like there is a lot of table-pounding going on in this thread.

[Bliss]

Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

ridiculous, stick to something you know

Ridiculous would be you assuming you have any idea of what I do or do not have knowledge of. I welcome disagreement, I welcome opposition, I have no problem with a passionate, vehement rebuttal of what I may have to offer. But, please, do not conclude from my 2 sentence post that I am ignorant regarding the subject.

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by Bliss

Ridiculous would be you assuming you have any idea of what I do or do not have knowledge of. I welcome disagreement, I welcome opposition, I have no problem with a passionate, vehement rebuttal of what I may have to offer. But, please, do not conclude from my 2 sentence post that I am ignorant regarding the subject.

what you know, who knows...all i can judge by is what you typed and it was ridiculous

when you offer nothing to give a rebuttal too because there is seemingly no place to start, how does someone argue with that?

[Sa_artman]

Originally Posted by RN1204

Islam is a violent religion in its teaching for the most part. May I remind any American or citizen of the world that Islamic belief and teaching was the prime reason for the destruction of the Twin Towers and the murder of thousands of innocent Americans. It is also a prominent force in nuclear catastrophe that Iran would like to unleash on the World. Not all Muslims are bad; do not get me wrong. However, this religion has the potential and extreme likelihood to produce discipled offspring that will be Ant-American and Anti-anything that opposes their beliefs and practices.

Adolph Hitler had very similar views. He believed in the perfect race and the eradication of anyone who threatened it. Saddam Hussein was heavily influenced by Islam, and he was guilty of genocide among other atrocious acts of terror and mayhem.

Alminejhad and Bin Laden are the perfect example of what Islam and its followers are capable of. Is that what we want in our country? WTF does one think they would do if they had free reign? A dominant religion of Islam in this country would given them a ticket to do whatever they wish. Many people do not understand that there is an undying allegiance with these people. It is cultish, and they will follow their leaders to death. I cannot say that Islam will be the dominant religion in this nation at any point, but it is the fast growing religion in the world. Be wary.

The idea that Muslims get a bad rap is bullshit. They gave themselves a bad rap and continue to do so. Not all of them practice violence, but the basis of their religion lends itself to the embracing of it, and many will. How many people will die before naive Americans realize that a large part of these people hate them? To the peaceable Muslims, I extend my courtesy, but in no way do I want a potentially threatening entity to proliferate in this country.

I would suggest to anyone the detailed reading of the Qur'an and then you tell me it does not teach that anyone who opposes or rejects this religion is worthy of tortuous death and is consider an infidel.

The problem is that this religion has the inherit potential to produce monsters. It already has the world over. Do you honestly think that there will be cessation of that? Yes, freedom of religion was a founding principle, but many Muslims do not believe that Americans should even be free to live, much less anything else. Invite their proliferation in this country, and the future will not be good. Many people do not realize the potential long term implications of this. If Islam becomes the dominant religion in this country in say the next 100 years, that religious influence will move into the government by way of Islamic believing leaders and government officials over time. It will evolve into something not fully conceptualized by most, and this nation may very well be reduced to a Dictatorship if we are not careful.

The blood of lost soldier's from the previous century paid for our freedom, and it is a reproach to invite such a potentially threatening religion to flourish in this country, particularly on or near the grounds where Islam destroyed many American lives. That is blasphemy in its purest sense.

Would you want a memorial to Islam placed in your backyard where an Islamic influenced maniac took the life of your spouse and forever changed your family's life? Think about it. This is very controversial to say the least. What good has Islam generated to the world? I am sure there is some, but the acts of terror eclipse most everything else, and they will only get worse.

Bush was an idiot to declare Islam peaceable. Obama has his place in idiocy as well. Our government as a whole is shit, and this nation as a whole is on the downslide morally, judicially, and fiscally. The Great America is what I love, but as a friend of mine said not long ago, "this is not the nation I fought a war for."

These are sad times.

This is just pure ignorance and fear mongering. We're you even overseas? You realize you sound just as much a zealot as extremist Muslims?

Freedom of Religion - what makes America what it is. Building controversial Mosque - not good idea. They should move it because if the majority finds it offending, then out of respect, move it. I would feel the same way if they put a church across from my favorite strip club. Put aside the overt religious tones. I wouldn't want a Wally-mart built just the same or 911 theme park.

[Guest123020]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

Four points:

1) It is a measure of the greatness of this country that building this a block from Ground Zero wold be allowed by the authorities (whether the public agrees or not). We are a nation of laws and it is a legal building, consistent with local zoning laws. In contrast, can you picture Saudi Arabia allowing a fundamentalist Baptist outreach center to be built in Mecca?

2) Point 1) being said, the people behind this project are either trying to inflame the situation or just fucking rude to do it where they are.

3) I doubt the building trade unions in NYC will ever let the thing get built.

4) If it is built, some nut job will blow it up.

I agree with you PJ, 100%. As a native Ny'er (born and raised) and a Jew,the locale of the project is insensitive to the community and, as PJ states, "just fucking rude!" On the other hand, I respect their right to attempt to build on their land. I truly believe that the powers that be in NY will never let it get past the permitting process.
There was a report that I read somewhere, where some entrepreneur wants to build a gay bar next door to the mosque. I think they ought to put a strip club or a Hooters on the other side.

[Camille]

Originally Posted by Bliss

Yes, I have read the bible.....old and new testament. And my example was just one of many that exists throughout the bible. My point is, you can take the words of the bible, the Qu'ran, etc and and individuals will draw different conclusions and thoughts about what the message is. That is part of the beauty of scripture......what it provokes in us at that moment in our life that becomes meaningful. It's EXTREMISM of these beliefs that causes harm.

+1

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by Shyster

There was a report that I read somewhere, where some entrepreneur wants to build a gay bar next door to the mosque. I think they ought to put a strip club or a Hooters on the other side.

a guy on fox came up with that..the gay bar

maybe name it "Ramadannie" with the tag line "Where you might just meet your very own Dannie"

[Happy Diver]

Ansley really set off a firestorm. I think the jihadists are going to point to the Muslim community center at ground zero as a symbol of victory. It should of course be allowed, but not near Ground Zero.

[discreetgent]

Originally Posted by Happy Diver

Ansley really set off a firestorm. I think the jihadists are going to point to the Muslim community center at ground zero as a symbol of victory. It should of course be allowed, but not near Ground Zero.

Or perhaps the opposite. The notion that a Muslim community center is built at that location could signal that although we were attacked it has not changed our fundamental values as a country.

PJ: Unlike you I think it will get built. I do agree that someone will try and blow it up; the security costs will be high.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by Shyster

There was a report that I read somewhere, where some entrepreneur wants to build a gay bar next door to the mosque. I think they ought to put a strip club or a Hooters on the other side.

If it really turns out like that, they should charge admission just to walk down the block.