Bleeding Heart Libertarian

[Fast Gunn]

Well, that has to pass for 'interesting" and admit that your comment will be valid only if you can produce a verifiable list of such "stupid mini-wars".

. . . With a wide enough net, you'll capture everything in the universe!

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

I don't think Libertarians are against all wars. I think we would have opposed Hitler. It's all these stupid mini-wars that are started to profit the defense machine we oppose.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

that wasn't pacifism.. that was isolationism.

the major power at the time dealing with all this was Great Britain. this was thier problem, not the U.S. and the U.S wasn't even a major power during this period. The U.S. was a Navy power and that was about it.

Should we have gotten involved some of these european/african conflicts? absolutely not. It wasn't our fight to begin with.

Heck, FDR did some stupid things like starting a secret naval war against the german navy as that would provoke germany to declare war against U.S. that policy didn't work.

oh btw, we did get involved with china before the war by using the Flying Tigers as a proxy air force piloted by americans in P-40's.

I wouldn't call this Pacifism by any stretch of any ones imagination.

You are correct. "Isolationism" is the proper term, and it's the sentiment espoused by both Johnson and Paul. The U.S. emerged from WWI as a major power -- economically and militarily -- in its own right. It was the policies of post-war isolationists that weakened and thus relegated U.S. military forces to the level of a third-rate, world power.

Yet the fact remains, U.S. isolationism didn't keep the U.S. out of either WWI or WWII. Your analysis of FDR's actions regarding the Nazi's isn't correct. FDR struggled to insure Great Britain survived the Nazi onslaught; he didn't connive to insure that there was war between the Nazis and the U.S. There is a difference. Hitler's nonchalant, backhanded declaration of war against the U.S. -- "an undisciplined, mongrel nation lacking cultural unity; thus, incapable of sustaining any prolonged military action" (the view held by Hitler and most Germans) -- illustrated the disdain and contempt he had for the poorly trained and equipped U.S. military forces.

BTW, the first combat mission flown by the Flying Tigers was on 20 December 1941: 12 days after Pearl Harbor (local time).

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Doove

I feel ya 'bro. It's the same way i feel about the dumbass dipshit morons who would vote for Mitt Romney.

But Doofus, only a truly moronic, dip-shit dumbass like you could vote for Odumbo -- TWICE!!!

[CuteOldGuy]

Let's see, FastGoon, there's Korea, VietNam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Grenada, Libya and probably a few more.

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Let's see, FastGoon, there's Korea, VietNam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Grenada, Libya and probably a few more.

Panama, Haiti, Santo Domingo, & Kuwait.

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

<snip>

Yet the fact remains, U.S. isolationism didn't keep the U.S. out of either WWI or WWII. Your analysis of FDR's actions regarding the Nazi's isn't correct. FDR struggled to insure Great Britain survived the Nazi onslaught; he didn't connive to insure that there was war between the Nazis and the U.S. There is a difference. Hitler's nonchalant, backhanded declaration of war against the U.S. -- "an undisciplined, mongrel nation lacking cultural unity; thus, incapable of sustaining any prolonged military action" (the view held by Hitler and most Germans) -- illustrated the disdain and contempt he had for the poorly trained and equipped U.S. military forces.

BTW, the first combat mission flown by the Flying Tigers was on 20 December 1941: 12 days after Pearl Harbor (local time).

I'd say you're an FDR WWII apologist, denying he connived to get U.S. into the european war.

with regards to Isolationism in WWI & WWII, 2 men, Wilson & FDR conspired to get U.S. into a european war, both had different reasons for doing so.

Wilson being the more dishonest leader in getting the U.S. into WWI which the U.S. really had no reason get into. And he did it because he wanted to.

FDR who being constrained by isolationist sentiment worked deceptively behind the scenes to hasten U.S. entry into the European war.

there was a good reason why naval war against the german navy was secret, FDR didn't want the isolationist public to know they were fighting germans in the atlantic. it would have been a scandal had the public found out about it.

oh please, like there was already a war between germans & U.S.? Hitler may have bad-mouthed U.S. as a mongrel nation and dissed its military, that didn't qualify as a declaration of war, let alone a back-handed one. that didn't justify the secret atlantic campaign.

It's not FDR's responsibility to insure that U.S forces be involved in Britains fight for survival. That responibility belongs to Britain only. Its fine when we gave material support to Britain from the lend lease program.

BTW, the training for the Flying Tigers or AVC started in summer of 1941, basing the AVC began in November 1941, a month before pearl harbor.
http://www.flyingtigersavg.com/tiger1.htm

AVC is the best evidence of the FDR's connivance in getting the U.S. in a war. And the administration apparently knew an a japanese attack was coming and withheld data from Hawaiian base commanders who were wrongfully convicted.

Its very likely without the actions & manipulations from Wilson & FDR, the U.S. would not have entered WWI & WWII. they did not want isolationism to succeed as a policy.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

I'

Its very likely without the actions & manipulations from Wilson & FDR, the U.S. would not have entered WWI & WWII. they did not want isolationism to succeed as a policy.

Correct.

But war makes a very small segment of society very very rich. That segment , along with the bankers , run this country now.

[Dawgs]

Originally Posted by Jackie S

Somebody needs to take Gary Johnson out back and beat the crap out of him. Sorry ass piece of shit knows he can cost Romney the Electorial College but he still insist on running is ill advised dipshit "look at me" campain.

And I feel the same way about any dumbass dipshit moron who would vote for him and help re elect President Obama.

I tend to disagree. More people need to be aware that there is a viable 3rd party that has a plan. Dems or Reps, same road just a different speed.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

I'd say you're an FDR WWII apologist, denying he connived to get U.S. into the european war. Wrong. Not an apologist, but a pragmatist. No nation exists – or can exist – in isolation.


with regards to Isolationism in WWI & WWII, 2 men, Wilson & FDR conspired to get U.S. into a european war, both had different reasons for doing so.

Wilson being the more dishonest leader in getting the U.S. into WWI which the U.S. really had no reason get into. And he did it because he wanted to. You are ignoring the Zimmerman Telegram which sought to provoke war between the U.S. and Mexico.

You're also ignoring the German's use of unrestricted submarine warfare resulting in the loss of American lives aboard the Lusitania and other sea going vessels.

Those Americans who died while seeking to earn a living as merchant seamen were not "rich warmongers". They were average citizens. The farmers who sold there crops to foreign buyers were not "rich warmongers". They were average citizens.

FDR who being constrained by isolationist sentiment worked deceptively behind the scenes to hasten U.S. entry into the European war.

there was a good reason why naval war against the german navy was secret, FDR didn't want the isolationist public to know they were fighting germans in the atlantic. it would have been a scandal had the public found out about it. When Germany invaded Poland on 1 September 1939, Britain informed the U.S. that it would be declaring war against Germany that same day. FDR held a cabinet meeting that day and stated his position: “. . . we [the U.S.] were not going to get into war.” FDR also explained that the U.S. would necessarily have to prepare to meet war problems, but he assured those present that that was distinctly different from preparing for war.

oh please, like there was already a war between germans & U.S.? Hitler may have bad-mouthed U.S. as a mongrel nation and dissed its military, that didn't qualify as a declaration of war, let alone a back-handed one. that didn't justify the secret atlantic campaign.

It's not FDR's responsibility to insure that U.S forces be involved in Britains fight for survival. That responibility belongs to Britain only. Its fine when we gave material support to Britain from the lend lease program.

BTW, the training for the Flying Tigers or AVC started in summer of 1941, basing the AVC began in November 1941, a month before pearl harbor.
http://www.flyingtigersavg.com/tiger1.htm

AVC is the best evidence of the FDR's connivance in getting the U.S. in a war. And the administration apparently knew an a japanese attack was coming and withheld data from Hawaiian base commanders who were wrongfully convicted. Yes, the base commanders were scapegoated. FDR presciently understood hostilities were imminent only hours before the strike on December 7th, but he did not understand the magnitude of the impending Japanese strike which he and his advisers believed would transpire in the Philippines. Almost no one in the entire U.S. political and military hierarchies understood Japan's capabilities. So no, FDR did not purposefully withhold information regarding the strike against Pearl Harbor.

Its very likely without the actions & manipulations from Wilson & FDR, the U.S. would not have entered WWI & WWII. they did not want isolationism to succeed as a policy.

From your article: “In the fall of 1940 the Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek [not FDR] instructed Chennault to go to the United States for the purpose of obtaining American planes and American pilots to end the Japanese bombing: and that’s what he did.” FDR’s tacit approval permitted U.S. military aviators to resign before their service contracts had expired, and it allowed Curtis Wright to deliver P-40s built for the British to be delivered – with British permission – to China. Nevertheless, The Flying Tigers of the Chinese Air Force were fundamentally American born mercenaries flying for a Chinese paymaster.

Those men were not significantly different from the American aviators who flew for France’s Lafayette Escadrille during WWI, or men like Ernest Hemingway who enlisted and served in the Italian Army during WWI, or those who enlisted to serve in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade during the Spanish Civil War. There were also Americans who volunteered to wear the German uniform during WWI and WWII.

BTW, as the 1st A.V.G. organized and trained for their first day of combat twelve days after Pearl Harbor, Takeo Yoshikawa, Kohichi Seki and Bernard Kuehn were already drawing maps, taking pictures and filing reports.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeo_Yoshikawa

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Let's see, FastGoon, there's Korea, VietNam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Grenada, Libya and probably a few more.

Please explain how the U.S. "unnecessarily" became involved in Korea. And if you consider Korea and Vietnam (and Afghanistan: Wilson's War) within the context of the longer, overarching Cold War, the U.S. won.

BTW, regarding Afghanistan during W's administration, Jefferson set precedent in 1801 when he declared war on the Barbary States because they were harboring pirates who were preying on American commerce.