Organized Crime

[mrlovalova64]

There was a debate on npr about prostitution and whether it should be legalized, etc.
The speaker pointed out that one of the main reasons why the human trafficking organized crime is so well established all over the world is because of the amount of resources they have at their disposal from "clients". I watched a documentary the other day about young girls being targeted, kidnapped and trafficked. Their captors traffic them them to Mexico and have them hooked on drugs. They would work all day at the local cantinas selling their bodies for another hit. Organized criminals go through all this because there's demand from hobbyists willing to pay.

I think this is sick and do not want to support human trafficking. Therefore, no hobby for me.

[Sensia]

Originally Posted by mrlovalova64

There was a debate on npr about prostitution and whether it should be legalized, etc.
The speaker pointed out that one of the main reasons why the human trafficking organized crime is so well established all over the world is because of the amount of resources they have at their disposal from "clients". I watched a documentary the other day about young girls being targeted, kidnapped and trafficked. Their captors traffic them them to Mexico and have them hooked on drugs. They would work all day at the local cantinas selling their bodies for another hit. Organized criminals go through all this because there's demand from hobbyists willing to pay.

I think this is sick and do not want to support human trafficking. Therefore, no hobby for me.

That is certainly your choice and understandable of your concerns. Much of the media is hyping on the "underage" and forced or trafficked women in the sex trade and it is more exaggerated for ratings than truthful. That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen but it is rare.

If you are concerned than I would suggest sticking to independent ladies who look at least 25 or older in their pics. The chances are greater for someone being forced or coerced in a brothel, spa or agency or a massage parlor.

If you would like to read on some insightful and factual literature on this subject I suggest visiting this site. The Honest Courtesan

I don't know if you recall the news about a year or so back concerning the pressure that was put on Craigslist to get rid of the escort section, but these same people have been pressuring Back Page as well. They are owned by Village Voice. There was a news article debunking the whole hysteria on underage girls and women being forced into the sex trade and being trafficked. Seems the plan is to generate public outcry and gain more funds via Government to local states and cities (also gaining FBI assistance) to go after the pimps and those who are supposedly trafficking said girls/women. In reality all they are catching in Stings across the country are legal aged prostitutes/escorts. I think they only netted a total of 11 some girls who were between the ages of 16-17 for the entire Nation (as stated in that article) during that whole period.

Does it happen? Yes. Is it as prevalent as the documentaries and media portray? No. It is all overblown hype.

[exoticdanceweardealer]

That's such a nonsense argument about sex trafficking. Criminals import sex slaves illegally and trying to stop honest prostitutes from doing their jobs legitimately doesn't discourage it, the only thing it does is use LE resources that could be used to stop those stray cases of illegal and forceful trafficking. Most women who provide are legitimately consenting to do the service as adults and there is no reason they shouldn't be able to other than the culture we have today considers it immoral and insists on invading the private lives of other people in their community.

Please stop with the beat to death straw man argument, if we legalize prostitution we can easily fight trafficking and even have added tax revenue to fund LE in doing so. It is the right thing to do and the true wrong in America is that the act is illegal at all.

[guest043013-2]

EDWD,

I agree with part of your argument. The consensual sex part is fine. Where the problem occurs is what percentage of women are involved in the undesirable trafficking as opposed to consensual.

When we look here on ECCIE, most of the women are consensual. I do question some of the AMP-based providers, and even the influx of recent "independent" Asian ladies is questionable. Anytime I see ladies who are moved in groups around the state or country, I have to wonder what is driving these moves. Would appear there is some management function that is involved.

The other issue is the non-ECCIE based providers out there. There is a large, hidden group out there I believe who are being trafficked. I hate to include these people (male & female) as providers, they are truly victims. They may belong to a class or classes of people that we do not talk about here. They may be confined by chains, violence, addictions, or other methods to do their pimps bidding.

What we have to realize is that depending on how we play in this hobby, we likely only see a small slice of the sex industry market. I don't think anyone can truly paint the entire picture of this industry. The percentage of the industry found underneath the trafficking umbrella may be large, may be small. Just no way to gauge it in comparison to the whole industry. The number of woman who maybe don't fall into the category of trafficking, but yet still are not here willingly, is another % we cannot guage.

If you asked me of all of the providers in the DFW area registered as providers on ECCIE are involuntarily pimped, trafficked, or otherwise forced into this career path, I would probably guess the number to be 20%. (yes, I pulled that out of my anal cavity.)

If you asked me how many sexual workers in the DFW area meet those criteria, the number would probably balloon to 50%, another anally derived number.

We have a hard time drawing a box here on what constitutes a pimp, determining which ladies we can brand with that label of being pimped. For LE & the lawmakers, to try to define moral character such as this in a law is too complicated. Easier to paint in broad strokes and capture the entire industry in your dragnet, while allowing LE to hopefully concentrate their efforts on the least desirable elements of the industry.

To the OP, all I can suggest if you want to play but don't want to support these undesirable elements, do your research. Find the ladies who are not being coerced. If the market dries up for the pimped ladies, then the value in that portion of the market will dry up and they will go find some other avenue to make a profit. This is one reason why anytime a guy states he doesn't care where his money goes as long as he gets his rocks off, I figure he is not a guy I want to follow in the footsteps of.

[trojantide]

tc,
I think the percentages (that you admittedly pulled from your sphincter) are way over stated. You really should visit Maggie's blog (I'll link it again for convenience.)
http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/
The facts to support the trafficking hysteria just don't add up. Do you really believe there are box cars full of underaged girls being transported to every big sporting event throughout the year? Don't you find it insulting that they claim men line up to have sex with these underage girls? We, in this community, need to have our facts right to debunk the myths. And where there are situations where our so-called brothers cross that line call them out on it. In the end, legalization is the only rational way to end the small percentage of actual abuse cases and give legitimate sex workers the rights they deserve.

[Harro69]

NPR is a propaganda outlet what did the OP expect to hear?

[guest043013-2]

I understand that the numbers are all speculative. Without taking the time to read your link, because I really just don't have time, none of really knows what the size of the universe (the sex industry) truly encompasses. If we think ECCIE can help us determine that, we are nuts.

I have read and heard enough ladies comment about how small a part ECCIE plays in their customer base. I also know that even in my on hobby pursuits, I have played with many ladies who cannot even spell ECCIE. So, how big is the box that will enclose the universe of all ladies who are accepting some sort of payment for access to their sexual favors? I don't know and I would say that anyone who claims to know is pulling the numbers out of their arse as well.

And when we don't have good information, then the moral police, the newspapers, the politicians can send up red flags, can parade their arrests in front of cameras, and declare the problem is rampant.

If we, who finance this area of entertainment, could self-police ourselves, could drive the demand for the undesirable elements out (underage, pimps, forced prostitution, drugs, etc.), then we might be able to get support for legalize sexual trades. As long as the other side can point to these arrest, whether a fringe or a fraction of the overall industry, and we cannot put forth hard data to prove that this is really a small fraction of the industry, we are left with the laws as they stand.

I think we all are in agreement on at least some levels as to what is going on, what might help, but I don't see anything changing soon.

For the OP, he can make his decision based on his perceptions.

Also, I think that this topic really is not so much a legal topic, and this thread belongs in either the sandbox or the main discussion forum.

[mrlovalova64]

thank you all for the intelligent discussion on this matter.

i no longer go to amps for this reason.

regarding independents, i have to ask if by seeing them i am encouraging their own self destruction. maybe they have an addiction to gambling, alcohol, shopping, drugs, or a combination thereof.
it also bega the question of what message this would send to my daughters or the future generation of women? that it is ok to put a price tag on their bodies and sell it? by paying for sex, i am condoning the act. i cannot imagine what i would do to a guy who would even think of paying my loved ones for sex. it is just plain wrong.

[TheAntichrist666]

This is an interesting topic, thanks for posting.

[trojantide]

Here is an alternate view to some of your comments. I don't see this as buying of flesh. Whores are not selling their bodies, they provide a service in exchange for money. Just like many other professions like massage therapy, hair dressers, lawyers... Also, the majority of escorts choose their work because its a better alternative to other options available. If a woman is predisposed to harlotry and sees it as a better alternative to a cleaning toilets or working in a factory or even a corporate 9 to 5, then why judge her for it. I understand that you would not want to see your daughter make that choice, I feel the same way. However, if she chose that path for the right reasons then I hope I could find it in me to support her decision. Just like if I found out my son was gay (thankfully he is far from it). I agree with your decision not to visit amps. But I steer away from them because they are too visible and get raided a lot. I really think very few if any are forced and trafficked by some big cartel. More likely, again, they choose this as a means to better their family's financial position.

[guest043013-2]

Originally Posted by mrlovalova64

thank you all for the intelligent discussion on this matter.
i no longer go to amps for this reason.
regarding independents, i have to ask if by seeing them i am encouraging their own self destruction. maybe they have an addiction to gambling, alcohol, shopping, drugs, or a combination thereof.
it also bega the question of what message this would send to my daughters or the future generation of women? that it is ok to put a price tag on their bodies and sell it? by paying for sex, i am condoning the act. i cannot imagine what i would do to a guy who would even think of paying my loved ones for sex. it is just plain wrong.

I highlighted the comment above - I have to agree with you. I have quit seeing certain ladies when I realized all I was doing was enabling them to journey down their path to destruction.

I may catch some grief from my next comment, but when you have been in this hobby for 5 or more years, in the same metro area, you can see certain ladies' careers and how they have declined. I have one certain lady in mind when I say the path I have seen her take over the last 7 years has resulted in her going from the top of my list to feeling sorry for her. She is still a top choice in the DFW area, has fans across the state I believe, but she is nothing like the sweetheart who I spoke to and met about 7 years ago. I only had a session with her once, really had hoped to see much more of her, but I don't think she could pay me at this point.

[mrlovalova64]

yes, i had also seen a provider who had scars on her wrists what looked like a suicide attempt. i cant help but feel sorry for her. the sadder thing is that like a drug addict she does not want to be helped. its kind of like she is purposefully hurting herself, possibly because she was sexu aly abused as a child.

[lizardking]

"Sex trafficking", pimping, and almost all of the other negative and harmful aspects of the sex trade are, for the most part, only possible because prostitution is illegal. Artificially forcing the entire industry underground facilitates these practices. The type of visibility and transparency that would accompany legalization would make it very difficult for "sex trafficking" and pimping to maintain a wide-spread presence. For example, a legal prostitute could simply go to the police and say, "Get this blood-sucking pimp off my back." For obvious reasons and in most places in this country, a working girl cannot do that. Have you ever heard of a pimp keeping a stable of bitches working down at WalMart? No. It's like drug violence. If drugs were legal, there would be none. Have you ever heard of a turf-war over a Miller distributorship? If I wanted to get a little deeper into the pathology that causes these "social ills" like "sex trafficking" and drug violence, I would say they are the foreseeable consequence of placing artificial constraints on human conduct. Society should accommodate every individual's - pick a word: need, desire, or right - to do what he wants to do, so long as that conduct does not harm or infringe upon the rights of others. When society attempts to criminalize what is essentially harmless behavior (i.e., harmless to others - don't get me started on that subject!), the system and the fundamental Social Contract are thrown off-kilter. Any society is an organism. If it forces its members into an unnatural posture, negative consequences will ensue. Try walking on one flat foot and one tip-toe for a day or two, and see what type of havoc it wreaks on your body. Your body was not built for walking in that manner. Likewise, humans are not suited to having their right to do what they want to do. We have many inalienable rights, not just the few discussed in the Declaration of Independence. Curtail those rights and we don't function well as individuals or as constituent parts of a society.

[ncdiver069]

Oh one last thing . Lizard king ,sex is not a inalienable right it's is earned either by conquest,love,or money

[Alpha_Male]

The whole traffic/underage deal is vastly overstated because it shuts down the counter argument of if nobody is being hurt. The participants in this hobby cannot publicly argue in its defense, so they otherside gets the ball most times. I think the traffic/underage argument is viewed as just scared tactics because if LE or society really believed it they would be all over prostitution whereas mostly LE is live and let live as long as you keep it quiet.

AMPs? Underage? As if. There is no question that some syndicate is involved to move the ladies around, but it they were sex traffic victims then here they are at the end of their career. I don't visit these places because of the age/looks/lousy sex.