Where is everyone?

[Guest083011]

I just logged on for the first time since 4/27. Went racing this past weekend. Good dinner Saturday night nice bottle of wine. What was this thread about?

[TexTushHog]

We had a good crowd in Dallas protesting the Arizona law. LE estimated 25,000, but organizers thought closer to 40,000.

[Marcus Aurelius]

What's wrong with the Arizona law?

[TexTushHog]

1. It encourages racial profiling.

2. It's a solution in search of a problem. Nothing wrong in my mind with folks coming to the U.S. to work. I think that labor and capital should move freely across international borders. International borders are (or should be) entirely irrelevant for economic issues.

3. Because it invites invasive police scrutiny that is easily subject to abuse (and is difficult to deter) on less than a "probable cause" basis, it should be unconstitutional under the Fourth Amendment and the Due Process Clause.

Other than that, nothing that I know of.

[Tiffany Cums]

What about protecting what is you and yours?

I am all for immigrants coming here LEGALLY and working hard for a profit...
But for them to sneak in, then 'nest' here taking government money?

Not to mention since they are tax exempt on a lot of things, it has allowed them to outbid Americans in the carpenter trade. This is what I know, I have seen many small companies in OKC go out of business because of this, and caused my brother in law to loose all he had.

And did you know they receive free lunch at school? I was shocked when I was filling out my sons enrollment papers…if you are an immigrant, you get a free lunch regardless of your income….if you’re an American citizen, it is based on income…how is that fair? Why do we not look at their income?

Why are they getting favors from the government over our own people?

IF they are legal, and had the same rights as Americans, then Americans can feel safe and secure in their everyday life. IF they are not legal....well...where's my shot gun?

[am-a-pleaser]

This morning I was helping Tiff find something. Then we got distracted and ended up BCD. omg it was wonderful. Wait. Nevermind. I was having a dream.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

Nothing wrong in my mind with folks coming to the U.S. to work. I think that labor and capital should move freely across international borders. International borders are (or should be) entirely irrelevant for economic issues.

Agreed. Implement a substantial guest worker (temporary) and 12b visa program and much of the problem goes away. Coming here to work is not the same as granting citizenship.

[John Bull]

Rather typical of the left. They riot whenever a governmental entity enforces a law they don't like or passes a law they don't like. They throw bottles, curse police, call any who believe in the law bigots and Nazi's and then turn around and accuse peaceful protesters of doing the things they wrote the book on.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Liberalism (leftists) are a religion.
Conservatives will put their boot on the neck of the working man and woman.

[charlestudor2005]

Tiffany--I'd have to disagree with you on most of this. For most of the arguments, see Sydneyb's dissertation, as follows (see also my comments, in blue in your post):

Originally Posted by Tiffany Cums

What about protecting what is you and yours?

I am all for immigrants coming here LEGALLY and working hard for a profit...
But for them to sneak in, then 'nest' here taking government money?

Ever since President Clinton signed the bill amending the then-federal law, immigrants cannot get government money. At least not directly. Most are entitled to emergency, life-saving efforts (for instance, immigrants in Nashville will be entitled to gov't help escaping death of the flooding). This also carries over to hospitals. They may "nest" as you say, but they don't get regular gov't pmts.

Not to mention since they are tax exempt on a lot of things, it has allowed them to outbid Americans in the carpenter trade. This is what I know, I have seen many small companies in OKC go out of business because of this, and caused my brother in law to loose all he had.

How are they tax exempt??? When they purchase things in the store, they pay the same sales tax you do. The only way they can be exempt (say in the carpentry trade) is for the same reasons other carpenters would be tax exempt. They can purchase as a wholesaler, but pass the tax on to the end-user (whoever has hired the carpenter). Or they can be non-profit. And they can bid lower b/c they are willing to take a lesser profit, also known as the free-enterprise system.

And did you know they receive free lunch at school? I was shocked when I was filling out my sons enrollment papers…if you are an immigrant, you get a free lunch regardless of your income….if you’re an American citizen, it is based on income…how is that fair? Why do we not look at their income?

I agree with you here, for the most part. However, in my child's school, all students receive a free lunch no matter their income, due largely to the fact that the school system is in one of the nation's poorest counties.

Why are they getting favors from the government over our own people?

IF they are legal, and had the same rights as Americans, then Americans can feel safe and secure in their everyday life. IF they are not legal....well...where's my shot gun?

Originally Posted by Sydneyb

[Blue are Sydneyb's comments, I think] From an article in Reason.org:

A stunning two-thirds of illegal immigrants pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes.

And since the 1996 welfare reform bill, illegals do not have access to the programs they contribute to.

What's more, aliens who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks. Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they'll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for. Last year, the revenues from these fake numbers — that the Social Security administration stashes in the "earnings suspense file" — added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus. The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year.


From personalliberty.com:

$11 billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year by state governments.

I believe this is old retoric since welfare reform has been enacted and enforced; therefore my assumption is that we would back out this number.

Illegal households only pay about one-third the amount of federal taxes that non-illegal households pay.
Illegal households create a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion a year. If given amnesty, this number could grow to more than $29 billion.
$1.9 billion dollars a year is spent on food-assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC and free school lunches for illegal aliens.
$1.6 billion is spent on the federal prison and court system for illegal aliens.
$2.5 billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.

Looking at what they contribute vs what they take out, it looks like they more than pay for themselves!? One area that is not quantified is the cost of supporting those in federal prison. I never understood why we didn't just deport all those convicted of felonies? That is one area I am in full support of is deporting those that are committing crimes....why don't we do that?

[Laurentius]

I'm a right winger. Personally, I think that when we lost 5 million jobs last year; our government shouldn't have granted 1.1 million legal greencards; much less admitted illegals by the millions through neglect. I think illegals should be deported and our borders should be defended vigorously. And I think we should do something to get at the root of the problems of the humanitarian disasters befalling those whose lives are so miserable in their homelands that they will give up and risk everything to come here. There are 6+ billion people on the planet. When do we say NO? Would it be enough to let them ALL in? It is a superior solution to improve their lives where they are.

But, that having been said; if they are going to not enforce immigration laws AT ALL ANYWAY -- and will neglect them so thoroughly that we have TENS OF MILLIONS of illegals .... they should just repeal the law altogether.

Make everyone who sets foot in this country an automatic voting legal citizen.

The problem with what they are doing now is it creates an entire underclass to be exploited; and whose exploitation comes at the cost of lost opportunities for people who already desperately need opportunity. We have Americans stuck on welfare while importing illegals to perform work at sub-minimum and sub-market rate; artificially depressing wages for working families who are already here.

If they are hell-bent on not enforcing the laws; then they should be repealed and just make the whole danged world an automatic full citizen the second their toe hits American soil.

At least THAT way they will be afforded equal protection under the law and their odds of being treated unfairly are reduced.

[am-a-pleaser]

Charles, very good points. Only problem I see in the money logic - the Fed's get the income,---- and the expense is at the local level. Maybe some locales pay more than others.

This makes me think too much. I'm going back to bed. Tiff, bring some fudge.

[charlestudor2005]

I assume your last paragraph is stated facetiously. Especially since you self ID as a right winger.

Originally Posted by Laurentius

I'm a right winger. Personally, I think that when we lost 5 million jobs last year; our government shouldn't have granted 1.1 million legal greencards; much less admitted illegals by the millions through neglect. I think illegals should be deported and our borders should be defended vigorously. And I think we should do something to get at the root of the problems of the humanitarian disasters befalling those whose lives are so miserable in their homelands that they will give up and risk everything to come here. There are 6+ billion people on the planet. When do we say NO? Would it be enough to let them ALL in? It is a superior solution to improve their lives where they are.

But, that having been said; if they are going to not enforce immigration laws AT ALL ANYWAY -- and will neglect them so thoroughly that we have TENS OF MILLIONS of illegals .... they should just repeal the law altogether.

The common figures floating around are, I think, 10-12 million. I think TENS OF MILLIONS is an overstatement.

Make everyone who sets foot in this country an automatic voting legal citizen.

The problem with what they are doing now is it creates an entire underclass to be exploited; and whose exploitation comes at the cost of lost opportunities for people who already desperately need opportunity. We have Americans stuck on welfare while importing illegals to perform work at sub-minimum and sub-market rate; artificially depressing wages for working families who are already here.

If they are hell-bent on not enforcing the laws; then they should be repealed and just make the whole danged world an automatic full citizen the second their toe hits American soil.

At least THAT way they will be afforded equal protection under the law and their odds of being treated unfairly are reduced.

[Tiffany Cums]

My New Responses are Purple, Yay!


What about protecting what is you and yours?

I am all for immigrants coming here LEGALLY and working hard for a profit...
But for them to sneak in, then 'nest' here taking government money?

Ever since President Clinton signed the bill amending the then-federal law, immigrants cannot get government money. At least not directly. Most are entitled to emergency, life-saving efforts (for instance, immigrants in Nashville will be entitled to gov't help escaping death of the flooding). This also carries over to hospitals. They may "nest" as you say, but they don't get regular gov't pmts.

I wasn't referring to welfare checks...there is also TANF and medical expense...think them mommas are having their babys free?? Andf the free schooling, lunches, ect...

Not to mention since they are tax exempt on a lot of things, it has allowed them to outbid Americans in the carpenter trade. This is what I know, I have seen many small companies in OKC go out of business because of this, and caused my brother in law to loose all he had.

How are they tax exempt??? When they purchase things in the store, they pay the same sales tax you do. The only way they can be exempt (say in the carpentry trade) is for the same reasons other carpenters would be tax exempt. They can purchase as a wholesaler, but pass the tax on to the end-user (whoever has hired the carpenter). Or they can be non-profit. And they can bid lower b/c they are willing to take a lesser profit, also known as the free-enterprise system.

In the particular situation I was referring to, they are self contracted...they are in charge of their own taxes, and they are also not listed on any legal paperwork regaurding the job...hence illegals work and they place their bid lower since they don't pay the same taxes on their income.

And did you know they receive free lunch at school? I was shocked when I was filling out my sons enrollment papers…if you are an immigrant, you get a free lunch regardless of your income….if you’re an American citizen, it is based on income…how is that fair? Why do we not look at their income?

I agree with you here, for the most part. However, in my child's school, all students receive a free lunch no matter their income, due largely to the fact that the school system is in one of the nation's poorest counties.

Thank you!

[Tiffany Cums]

Originally Posted by am-a-pleaser

This morning I was helping Tiff find something. Then we got distracted and ended up BCD. omg it was wonderful. Wait. Nevermind. I was having a dream.

Or was it??