An introspective discussion about ourselves from within the hobby

[sunfish]

offshore

is that real pocorn ? now i am hungry

[newd]

"Either that or those guys have a later bed time then I do."
NB - you always crack me up!!!!

What a great thread. Thank you so much, boredinbingo, for opening it up.

As a "pseudo-lurker" who has not yet acted on the hobby, I too have often thought that my feelings of self-acceptance on the topic could be simple justification for my thoughts. (How is that for neurotic.... worrying about justifying the un-taken actions...the "sins in my heart" - JC)


If I so choose to act, it will be because of a complete lack of sexual intimacy on the home front; I've long since passed the anger. We've discussed it. As we've aged some, we've ended up with a very bad combination. Her low sex drive and my need for a very active partner. Not a good combo. So, if I proceed with the hobby at some point, it will be to allow myself the intimacy, joy, and fun I deserve, without leaving the home life that I have created with my spouse and so greatly love. Justification; maybe. But I don't feel that way.

A final thank you to Jack for his always highly sensitive and insightful comments!

[MajorHands]

Man, there's a lot here to hash over...and I may not get to all the things I'd want to say...but then again, I may get on a roll.

Dealing first with the discussion about the validity or justifiability of any sex worker/sex consumer, to include providers and clients as well as strippers, phone sex workers, rub n tug attendants, etc....despite what many might think, the various examples of legal sex work throughout the world (even in limited pockets of the US) suggest that there is no perceived moral absolute when it comes to sex work. At the same time there are all sorts of cultural and situation moral judgments made about the people involved (married, single, young, old, etc). There are many sources of perceived moral authority (religious, social, cultural) that color these judgments. Depending on the particular framework, the judgements are fluid...(a single guy can have a series of one night stands and be a stud while a woman who does the same is a slut....a topless dancer is less objectionable than a nude dancer...a rub n tug girl is morally superior to a full service provider...and the list goes on). Balanced against many of these sources of moral authority is the concept of "autonomy of self" or "self-determination"...it's sometimes fodder for discussions of constitutional law...(it is part of the discussion of freedom of religion for instance)...it suggests that to a large degree an individual is endowed with a certain basic right to control what happens with and to one's "self" to include his/her body, with the caveat that the this right may be limited by the degree to which those uses might inflict harm on others... If this were the only principle in play, I suspect there would be far less restrictions on sex-work in the US, but clearly many of those cultural and religious considerations are at the heart of many of the ordinances against it. The whole "secondary effects" argument tied to adult usage (drugs and crimes that supposedly proliferate at strip clubs, adult book stores, etc), pretty much exists because without it, the actual behaviors that are condemned and criminalized are perfectly legal in other contexts: A man and a woman agree to meet and have sex for one hour...perfectly legal. The man pays for the same act and it's a heinous crime...

I know I'm somewhat preaching to the choir here, although some comments here suggest otherwise...there's no shortage of rationale to support the no-shit legitimacy of sex-work...and even more to suggest that the restrictions involved are based on a frame work derived from our religious heritage, which while laudable in context, is somewhat antithetical to the idea embodied in the 1st Amendment that no person's understanding of God or the divine has any preference/advantage over another...so that just about any laws that exist primarily to promote the tenet of a particular faith (or even several) is inherently suspect.

Oy..that was just one little issue...more to follow...

[rooster]

Wow, Major..... that was pretty freakin' awesome, I must say. Who knew you had it in ya'?

You are quite obviously a very educated and articulate individual. Very cool that you can present an argument so objectively.

Here's my favorite part: ".... suggest that there is no perceived moral absolute when it comes to sex work...."

THAT SAYS IT ALL! To that I would only add that there is also no perceived moral absolute when it comes to paying for sex either. Nor is there one for promiscuity, extra-marital affairs, and on, and on, and on.....

[HlavinKitheri]

Just to scratch one small surface here, I personally doubt our providers are in it for the validation. Such women, and I love them, are called "sluts," bless their needy little hearts.

Paid providers, in my humble opinion, are in it for the money.

[jackfengshui]

Originally Posted by HlavinKitheri

Such women, and I love them, are called "sluts," bless their needy little hearts.

Unfortunately, that term is usually considered derogatory even if you meant well.

[MajorHands]

Originally Posted by HlavinKitheri

....Paid providers, in my humble opinion, are in it for the money.

Well, the off the cuff (and admittedly sarcastic) response is...Duh! Of course they're in it for the money!!

[I have to clarify that my opinions in general support of sex work and the motivations associated are limited to those individuals who choose to participate - It's a very harsh reality that no few number of people, mostly women, are undeniably coerced - not the so-called "coercion" of wanting to put a roof overhead, a meal on the table, or yourself through graduate school - but rather the coercion created through threat of violence or other harm to engage in activities they would not choose for themselves. This aspect of the sex-worker world is reprehensible and should be combated rigorously by LE. The trouble is that criminalizing sex-work is easier than pursuing the coercers behind the scene and the crimes that support them: harassment, assault, kidnapping, involuntary confinement, etc. Despite the reality that enforcing laws against sex-work doesn't work and does more harm than good, it's easier and sells better to the public.]

So, with that said, voluntary providers are certainly in it for the money...most people with jobs are...that doesn't mean that the work can't be enjoyable and personally fulfilling. As someone who derives great pleasure from giving pleasure...I can understand that some providers could absolutely LOVE this job...and why not? Sure there's no shortage of risk to go along with the high reward, and some clients are probably a real chore...at the same time, there's the potential for being treated really well and opportunities to enjoy the activity that is not only a basic human need, but has been one of the main driving forces of man throughout his history. It's like China said toward the end of one of our sessions...she remarked that sex is really one of the most fun things that two people can do together. If there wasn't such a stigma attached to it...think how many more people would probably do it.

[summerwaves]

Originally Posted by NormalBob

In my case, this hobbiest isn't as good-lookin' as the guy who can get strange at a bar.

Either that or those guys have a later bed time then I do.

There are very few guys who have "strange" luck. Very few. Besides, most ladies are looking for a relationship and you would most likely end up with a lot of phone calls and demands afterward.

[cnym]

Originally Posted by summerwaves

There are very few guys who have "strange" luck. Very few. Besides, most ladies are looking for a relationship and you would most likely end up with a lot of phone calls and demands afterward.

And you guys wonder why the Men Hobby?

[youngatheart]

quick response..part of the "problem" is our culture. In Europe it is not as big a deal as it is here. We are a puritanical society and anything short of marriage is frowned upon.
I'd also like to pose the questions about money. To those that have a SO, do you every feel guilty that you're spending money on a provider while that money could be used for other things like a family vacation or going out with the SO? I for one justify it as a mental health expense.

[Niktu]

Whew, I really need to check on the board more frequently, and earlier in the day. I saw this thread earlier, expecting I was too tired to give it proper attention, put it aside till later.
Unfortunate as I've had some of the same thoughts mulling around in my head.

Thanks boredinbino for a great thread. Up there with Laker's "Why I Hobby" on the prior board.

I think MajorHands said there is a lot of material here, too much for me to adequately address but I'll attempt to hit only a few of the points that scream out at me.

Forgive the use of quotes, I use them to give credit to the original poster.

Originally Posted by summerwaves

I really do not like the expression "girlfriend experience" because it is not reality. Perhaps "girlfriend fantasy" would be better.

I agree that the "academic" work is underdeveloped and misses a great deal of issues surrounding this life style. Getting back to the girl friend experience and the reality of it is that it is just a fantasy. A real problem is that some hobbiests do not understand this and some believe the object of their experience is really like that all the time. They start believing it and becoming too attached. Some forget that the experience is all about and for them and that the girl giving the experience may have a totally different idea of what is good. Her style, wants, needs and desire may be completely different.

Not one of us is damaged goods. We are normal and human and doing what we have to do to get by. I don't know too many people who have had picture perfect lives since birth. We all have our problems in some form or another.

Agreed, GFF is a better understanding. I like your nomenclature.

We all have problems and our own issues, ladies and gentlemen alike. No human should be considered "damaged goods", some of us do have, lets say, "problems".

Going to NB's comment I suppose it's somewhat about how we "adapt and behave differently in response," ie our behavioral and emotional response and how hobbying is part of that.

Originally Posted by summerwaves

This lifestyle is no different than swinging or meeting someone out and going for a roll in the hay afterwards. Single people do. Married people do it. Drunk people do it! Sad people do it. Mad people do it. Horny people do it. Lonely people do it. Stressed out people do it. Every walk of life and profession does it. People that say the "don't do it", do it (and usually "do it" the most and after a few drinks to use as an excuse for "doing it")! I think this avenue simply makes "doing it" easier and more convenient, and without really having to say the obvious, it helps out a lot of people in need and who are struggling to get by.

Damn, I really am getting to like your thinking


I don't agree at all with the addiction theme for hobbyists (nor for the ladies here). Not to over think. Sex is a human need.


Thinking only of hobbyists with spouse, SO the younger hobbyist may be missing their bigger picture.
For us older hobbyists, I really don't know. Is this a good adaption to our situation which is set in stone, or are we (I) simply too nervous of causing more harm than good taking a hammer and chisel to the stone?

Perhaps we are as well rounded and reasoned as my favorite regional philosopher DeepThinker and intend to wring every drop of pleasure out of life. But I doubt it.

Hobbyists without SO, there is no reason to not revel in the pleasures offered.

I imagine we all are looking for different things with different motives.

Originally Posted by NormalBob

In my case, this hobbiest isn't as good-lookin' as the guy who can get strange at a bar.

Me neither, but I still can't help but hope to

Originally Posted by rooster69

Wow, Major..... that was pretty freakin' awesome, I must say. Who knew you had it in ya'?

You are quite obviously a very educated and articulate individual. Very cool that you can present an argument so objectively.

Here's my favorite part: ".... suggest that there is no perceived moral absolute when it comes to sex work...."

THAT SAYS IT ALL! To that I would only add that there is also no perceived moral absolute when it comes to paying for sex either. Nor is there one for promiscuity, extra-marital affairs, and on, and on, and on.....

(obviously for MajorHands also)

Originally Posted by youngatheart

quick response..part of the "problem" is our culture. In Europe it is not as big a deal as it is here. We are a puritanical society and anything short of marriage is frowned upon.

Absolutely!!!

Someone, perhaps NYGUY, said in Quebec laws from Ottawa are regarded as suggestions. It is the same in Italy, home of the Vatican, or even the church itself in Rome. Rules written which we take as black and white. Human nature includes a lot of gray.

I was sort of a conservative republican who bought into the Bill Clinton impeachment issue. At the end of the day the republican's spent over $10 million tax payer dollars and a formal US Senate trial to finally and definitively answer the age old cosmic question that yes, a middle aged white guy will have sex with a younger woman and lie so his wife doesn't find out. Simply f*cking amazing.

Originally Posted by youngatheart

I'd also like to pose the questions about money. To those that have a SO, do you every feel guilty that you're spending money on a provider while that money could be used for other things like a family vacation or going out with the SO? I for one justify it as a mental health expense.

Yes, it does weigh on my mind, especially with the recession.


I enjoy threads that challenge and make me think and reevaluate.
Learning is a life long experience. Thanks

[Chloe]

My heart tells me that people are inheritantly good my spirit says otherwise . . . Some of us are led by dualistic virtues. Mine are love and "greed" or shall I say a need. A belief that we all deserve love. A belief that my time is so comsumed with the generous nature of my being that I will take monetary compensation rather than the stress of bankruptcy. Is that different than any other service position? Reverends, doctors, therapists . . . Should we take away the money they earn because they put a price on their love? Or can we chalk it up to being a caring being that needs to survive in this monetized society?

The definition of prostitution is the act or practice of engaging in sex acts for hire. Another is the act or an instance of offering or devoting one’s talent unworthily (as stated above)

Unworthily? An accomplise word would be undeserving . . . . If the intentions are good ….when love is involved . . . .even if money is, how is anyone undeserving of love? Everyone has their own perceptions and judgments of prostitution. Many are derogatory based on ingrained teaching from our society. There are many instances within this that are not favorable. Supporting drug habits, addictions, low self esteem, masking reality with fantasy, a need to feel in control, greed, envy, racism, sexism, hatred, all may fuel this . . . .but there is another side and another view that encompases a whole other concept and view of this. . .


The definition of an escort is one or more persons accompanying another to guide, protect or show honor. I wonder who this person is that decided to name the prostitution services with this word? Obviously it makes it legal to advritise…. Gives a socially acceptable label to an unsocially accepted business but I must think deeper into this as you all have . . . .

I may be a different breed or class within this world and an admitted low percent. My love is deeper than perception therefore I see all views yet have a broader vision of the whys and why nots. . . .

I’ve chosen to hate, to dislike or look down upon others for the way they lived their lives at times. It was protection. It was to make myself feel better about loving those that took advantage of me. But above all it was my sure fire way to not be involved anymore with those who have rejected or hurt me. As part of coming into my true self, “growing up” and deciding to not utilize these things as vices and or reasons to not "love or be loved in return", my eyes have opened up. I do not see anything but the positive in the men I see and I truly set out to fully love them as they deserve within a session. As a result I have loyal and devoted regulars that are actually love me. We talk on the phone, buy gifts for each other, share all the ups and downs of life. They can talk to me openly without having to hide any aspect of their lives (wife, kids, job . . .) they share their deepest feeling and desire to someone with no judgement and to someone who only desires for them to be happy.

Bottom line . . . when 2 people balance eachother with needs and desires and both people are happy . . . why the heck does anyone else care to shoot them down? I believe it is those who are unhappy with their lives or those happy people who believe that their only route to happiness is their way.

Addiction sure . . . we can get addicted to ANYTHING.

Thank you Jack for the defense on the "slut" use . . .but maybe I am more comfortable with who I am that a "label" can't touch it . . . and maybe he's right . . .maybe we are a convent of sluts instead of monks? Maybe . . . but GUESS WHO HAS MORE FUN?? lol

The idea of being bent over or bending someone else over for the night instead of staying in reading a book being a good boy or girl turns YOU ALL on!!!! And don't you deny it!!! There is nothing immoral about our ingrained sexual instincts.

[HlavinKitheri]

"The definition of an escort is one or more persons accompanying another to guide, protect or show honor. I wonder who this person is that decided to name the prostitution services with this word? Obviously it makes it legal to advritise…. Gives a socially acceptable label to an unsocially accepted business but I must think deeper into this as you all have . . . .

==============================

Words' meanings sure do change over time. I remember puzzling over some old literature once until I figured out that "chaperon" used to mean a lookout, an accomplice to keep watch, lest the busy couple be discovered.

"Wretch" was once one of the most tender words in the language, conveying sympathy for another's wretched circumstances. The closest modern English expression, in meaning, would be the colloquial "poor baby," spoken with no irony.

"Amateur" literally, and still usually, means a person who does what they do for love, not money. But discussing the hobby in another forum, I used it to mean a casual partner, other than a paid provider. ("Bar strange," as referenced above.)

One of the other participants in that discussion let me know "amateur" is offensive in his community, like "b*tches" or "h*'s in training." He assured me this implies ALL women are "h*'s, paid or not." So I had stepped in it again.

I'd like to come up with an agreeable term for those emotionally needy women who "give it up" repeatedly in search of validation; the ones who don't want money, just the approval of some man. "Sex addict" seems both judgmental and inaccurate, so I avoided that one in the first place. Also, it should be a word that DOESN'T include self-confident women who seek various partners simply because they're horny (as we do).

No biggie, I'm not hurting from the lack of a word.

[China Doll]

I would like to speak up on one issue. I don't frequent the local board much, so I wish that what I am about to say could be truly magical and eye-opening, but alas, it's just a humble opinion.
For many or most of you, hobbying may be no different from a "roll in the hay" with anyone else you’re not in a committed relationship with. I accept that. For me, however, it is clearly different. I am quite a prude in real life. If I told you how many men I had been with before I started providing, you would not believe me. I see absolutely nothing wrong with casual, safe sex, but it's not my style.

I saw a man once in the beginning of my time in this profession. Even though it was quite clear to him ahead of time that I do not offer BBBJ, he was quite angry when he could not pressure me into performing said act. He said, "Well, how is this different from you picking up some guy at a bar? You wouldn't make him wear a condom!"

HA! My response? "What kind of girl do you think I am? I don't pick guys up at bars!"

It's a funny response for someone who does what I do, isn't it? The statement still stands. I believe that I remain unchanged in the sense that after this period of my life is over, I still will not sleep with anyone I'm not in a relationship with.

So the question is...why is the hobby different for me? Obviously there is the money aspect, but it's not just that, because I do enjoy what I do. Perhaps I can justify it and allow myself to participate and enjoy it because the money aspect is there? I have a few other theories, but I’ll need a little time to think this through before I can conclude anything.
Please do not misconstrue this as an assertion that you are all wrong in saying that the hobby is the same as casual or semi-casual sex for you. All I’m saying is that it isn’t that way for everybody, but not in the ways you might expect.

[NormalBob]

Originally Posted by China Doll

Please do not misconstrue this as an assertion that you are all wrong in saying that the hobby is the same as casual or semi-casual sex for you. All I’m saying is that it isn’t that way for everybody, but not in the ways you might expect.

I maybe ought to try to put together a thorough coherent post on this subject but instead here's another hit and run.

Playing with providers is vastly better than casual or semi-casual sex in my situation. The clarity of the relationship with a provider is essential to protecting things that are really important to me such as my marriage. Having this hobby allows me to tap into feelings that are dangerous otherwise.

The confusion that can come from having a truly outstanding physical and personal relationship with a casual partner may call into question whether you are with the right person. It causes doubts. It allows gaps that can be filled with a lack of commitment to the permanent relationship.

However with the hobby, I can experience a truly outstanding physical and personal relationship knowing that it risks nothing in my real-life. I can even allow myself to tap into tender feelings without risk.

I was asked by a provider if I sought providers to fill in for lost intimacy in my marriage. This has had me thinking...

In a way, it is MORE true to say that I seek providers because of the lack of intimacy. A long-term marriage consists of thousands of layers of intimacy, so much so that it can get in the way of great sex. As women tend to say in relationships, they can't just have sex. It comes in the context of the totality of the relationship it seems. For example, men are encouraged by advisers to realize that foreplay in marriage is continuous and includes the first touch in the morning, getting the bills paid, throwing your dirty cloths in the hamper instead of leaving them on the floor, feeding the dogs, running the vacuum when its expected and surprising her by running it when it's not expected.

After a decade of marriage, you have 3,650 days of foreplay.

After 27 years and five months of marriage, there are 10,000 days of foreplay.

Mistakes are made. Things are said. Tensions exist. Investments need to be undertaken. Job stress takes its toll. Kids get sick. Parents die.

Man that's a lot of intimacy.

In summary, casual sex for a married guy is dangerous because of the threat to the permanency of the primary relationship.

Married sex is burdened by years of issues that marriage necessarily incorporates.

For some of us, the hobby creates a third way that is so safe and effective, even the FDA may approve it under the right 510(k) application.