Fine

[CuteOldGuy]

For those of you who think I should be put away or killed because I simply want to live in freedom, consider which side you are on in the following:

Martin Niemöller (1892-1984) was an ardent nationalist and prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last 7 years of Nazi rule in concentration camps. Niemöller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation:
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.

I'm trying to speak out, not just for me, but for all of us. Too many of you buy into the Government Military Industrial Pharmaceutical Media Alliance lies, which are leading us into a completely controlled society. It won't look like East Germany or the Soviet Union to begin with, because we must have our entertainment and our sports teams. They know that, so they encourage that in order to keep our minds off what is truly going on. But eventually it will all slip away, and we will resemble East Germany. Look at all the liberty we have lost in the last 100 years, culminating in the NDAA of 2011. We no longer have "unalienable" rights, rather, we have given the power to grant or restrict rights to the government, to use as they see fit. You can be sure, that government granted "rights" will continue to erode. It is the nature of government that government will increase, and liberty will decrease.

I know I'm in a minority, and the vast majority of Americans could give a shit less about the loss of freedom in this country. As long as they have their American Idol and other mindless television, their sports teams, and the comic melodrama known as the "elections" they are content. WalMart still has sales, and cable TV is available. So it's going to happen regardless of what I do. I'm just not going to down without some non-violent civil disobedience. If you people want to kill me or lock me up because of my opinions - I guess you prove my point.

And you think you're the tolerant ones.

[Sensia]

Cog,

If you really want to be heard why don't you consider starting a blog and publish it. Maybe find a blog site that has a lot of readers. Just a suggestion. You might actually get more readers and maybe even set your blog up for your readers to add comments and respond.

[MC]

So because a few people made some stupid comments about your stupid posts you're comparing yourself to Niemöller?

Please stop taking yourself so seriously.

[CuteOldGuy]

Guilty, when I get serious, that is what I will do. However I have other things that I would like to put in a blog. Thanks for the suggestion.

I post what I do here for 2 main reasons. 1. I believe what I say, and 2. I love the responses I get. This is entertainment for me, even though I am serious about what I post. I know I'm a minority, and nothing is going to stop the trend.

But when I start a blog, I will devote my effort to assisting people with overcoming what the government is doing. True freedom is in the mind and heart, where government can't legislate. That's where I will focus, since telling the truth about what is going on will get me just the same responses as here. But I've resolved to be happy and positive regardless of what government does. They can't take away my attitude, and I choose to enjoy life, regardless of what is going on around me. No time for hate, hate is unique in that it destroys the vessel that contains it.

[CuteOldGuy]

MC, you made stupid comments yourself. And please read, I asked what side do you see yourself on in Niemoller's quote. I can't keep explaining everything to you people.

[Sa_artman]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Guilty, when I get serious, that is what I will do. However I have other things that I would like to put in a blog. Thanks for the suggestion.

I post what I do here for 2 main reasons. 1. I believe what I say, and 2. I love the responses I get. This is entertainment for me, even though I am serious about what I post. I know I'm a minority, and nothing is going to stop the trend.

But when I start a blog, I will devote my effort to assisting people with overcoming what the government is doing. True freedom is in the mind and heart, where government can't legislate. That's where I will focus, since telling the truth about what is going on will get me just the same responses as here. But I've resolved to be happy and positive regardless of what government does. They can't take away my attitude, and I choose to enjoy life, regardless of what is going on around me. No time for hate, hate is unique in that it destroys the vessel that contains it.

You think way to highly of yourself. Extremists have been crying about this or that since 1776 (maybe even before) even as hard working people built this country and government in the midst of the whiners and detractors. You won't bring it down, no definitely not in your lifetime, no how matter how many street corners you stand on yelling the end of the world is near. You and Mr. Bill are highly delusional...but entertaining.

[essence]

I was prompted to start a new thread, prompted by what I read last night and this morning, but I think it fits into this one.

To be clear, this is not an attack on CoG, although I probably disagree with him on 99% of issues. CoG seems to have some sense of humour, and a bit too much time on his hands, but is not in the same ballpark as some other extremist posters here.

I am commenting on his tag:

extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice

This statement has only three problems. The word extremism, the word liberty and the word vice.

The word extremism will clearly raise a red flag, but maybe the word has changed meaning and connotation in recent years. Defending liberty has often required courage, outspokennish, passion, dedication, etc., and those defending it may be exceptions compared with their peers. However, I'm not sure whether MLK or Mandela or Bonhoeffer or countless others would like to be called extremists. Maybe radical is a better word nowadays.

Liberty also has a problem. My liberty or your liberty? Let me compare a bit more below.

The third problem is vice. Not this is an adult board where adults can enjoy themselves and have fun, and some regard this as a vice. So saying that something is 'no vice' does not seem to me to be a strong statement of condemnation? Surely a bit of vice is a good thing, otherwise why are we here on this board?

As an important aside, it is unfortunately true (I have some experience of the mental health profession) that a small percentage of people are very mentally unwell, and/or evil, to an extent that the general population has little concept. We see just the tip of the iceberg in the press. They need protection from themselves, and society needs protecting from them. Given the number of members of ECCIE, it is inevitable that some members and posters have some serious mental health issues. They need treatment by mental health professionals.

So, my liberty/freedom or your liberty/freedom.

My freedom to continuously froth lies about HIV v. your freedom to enjoy the best of medical care.

My freedom to publish gross images (which should be restricted to medical specialists or the courts of law) v. my freedom not to be upset and tainted.

My freedom to recommend people stop a medical treatment v. your freedom to continue to enjoy the benefits and life arising from that treatment.

My freedom to take substances v. your freedom not to be subject to consequent psychotic episodes.

My freedom to cross national borders v. your freedom to manage immigration

My freedom to earn a decent wage v your freedom to maximise profits

My freedom to a base level of medical care v. your freedom to kick down poor people who don;t have the ability to pay

My freedom to fight wars of liberty v. your freedom to look after veterans who have difficulty coping with the aftermath.

etc etc etc.

So, my main point with Goldwater's statement is:

- whose freedom/liberty are you talking about?

ps. don;t know much about Goldwater, but he seems like a complex person, with some good and not so good viewpoints, and would probably disagree vehemently with many current republicans. I note he seems to have had a strong role in desegregation. An 'old school' conservative/libertarian.

[CuteOldGuy]

Did I say I was going to bring this down? No, you simply made up something I did not say, knocked it down, and congratulated yourself. You're getting boring, Sa_fartman. You are a fine spokesman for the establishment line. No doubt you will make a fine citizen in the society that's developing.

I don't plan to bring this down. I will protest nonviolently when the opportunity presents itself, but I intend to enjoy my grandchildren and instill in them a love of freedom and nonviolence.

And I may enjoy the occasional provider.

I'm an extremist, but you are the one who wants me to be silenced or dead. Interesting. And all I want for you is freedom. Yes, you will fit in well with the establishment.

[Mr. Bill]

COG...

"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."


.

[essence]

Isn;t the internet wonderful! Goldwater's quote was actually from Cicero. I cut and pasted this:

...the inflammatory speech was largely written by Hess, with a quotation -- of Marcus Tullius Cicero defying the conspiratorial Catiline -- contributed by Professor Jaffa; Goldwater (or one of his acknowledged ghosts) wrote later that "I had heard it earlier from the writer Taylor Caldwell."


Cicero, criticized for his hasty execution of five of Catiline's supporters, said, "I must remind you, Lords, Senators, that extreme patriotism in the defense of freedom is no crime, and let me respectfully remind you that pusillanimity in the pursuit of justice is no virtue in a Roman."

So, Goldwater was talking about the freedom to perform hasty executions. Some freedom.

[CuteOldGuy]

I don't think Goldwater was using the phrase in the same context as Cato. Quit being stupid. You know that. And here I tried to take you seriously. My bad.

Essence, I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. My freedom? Your freedom? I believe that each person should be allowed to whatever they want to do, so long as they don't infringe on someone else's rights.

If you want to drink or otherwise alter your consciousness, go ahead. Just don't drive or hurt someone else.
If you want to drink raw milk from an Amish farmer, go ahead.
You ought to be able to seek the medical care you want. If you want insurance, buy some. If not, pay for it yourself. If you want the poor to have free medical care, organize a charity for that purpose.
I think you should have the right to sell your labor for highest price the market will bear.
I'm in favor of managed immigration.
I'm in favor of punishing criminals, that is, those who attempt to harm another person's life, liberty or property by force or fraud.

If you think it is a freedom to have access to the best of medical care without paying for it, you are taking another person's livelihood without compensation, which denies them their freedom. The answer is to organize and take donations and volunteers to assist those who for whatever reason are unable to afford care. Government force is not necessary to insure people are cared for.

I think war should always be a last resort, and only waged with a declaration of war issued by Congress.

So I don't know what you're getting at. There will always need to be a government for defense, police and public safety, as well as the few other responsibilities defined in the Constitution.

Now, states have much greater authority to do things than does the federal government, and localities even more. This allows the people closest to the action can fashion a program that specifically addresses their needs. For example, Romneycare in Massachusetts is perfectly constitutional, whereas Obamacare is definitely not.

I still disapprove of things state and local governments do, such as property taxes, but they are constitutional.

So I really don't know what you're getting at. Liberty as defined in the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution. It belongs to all of us.

[essence]

Also, I note CoG values freedom to be part of a Trade Union (pace Goldwater)

[essence]

CoG, I was mainly concerned about the freedom to post gross images of babies with the freedom for me to sleep an undisturbed sleep. As I said, my post was absolutely nothing to do with you.

[CuteOldGuy]

Yes, I think unions in private industry are fine. I don't think they always make the right choices, but it is freedom of association.

As far as gross images go, I don't know. We have nuts driving big trucks around here with pictures of aborted babies on them. Really gross, and I don't care to see it. So I'm not sure what limits ought to be placed on images.

[Sa_artman]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Did I say I was going to bring this down? No, you simply made up something I did not say, knocked it down, and congratulated yourself. You're getting boring, Sa_fartman. You are a fine spokesman for the establishment line. No doubt you will make a fine citizen in the society that's developing.

I don't plan to bring this down. I will protest nonviolently when the opportunity presents itself, but I intend to enjoy my grandchildren and instill in them a love of freedom and nonviolence.

And I may enjoy the occasional provider.

I'm an extremist, but you are the one who wants me to be silenced or dead. Interesting. And all I want for you is freedom. Yes, you will fit in well with the establishment.

Lol. Thought this was purely entertainment for you. Getting you panties in a wad eh? You know what's boring? Your posts. They lack the excitement of Marshall or even whirlie. I've proven (or rather you proved) in another post that you can't prove a damn thing you post beyond the link.

"As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly."