Would You Fire Her?

[guest043013-2]

Originally Posted by Kaci Snow

...If she has chossen to use the office space to see clients or set up meating with them or is causing a risk for the business. ...

Had to pick at you alittle for the freudian slip there?

As far as the original question, as long as it does not impact her ability to meet her job responsibilities for me or my employer, none of my business. I have always thought that those clauses that require you to notify your employer of any moonlighting jobs was a bit bogus. I bet a good lawyer could argue in most professions that those are an illegal restriction on a person's right to earn a living. Especially in this day & age where multiple jobs are the norm. This seems like a bigger violation of rights than all of the non-compete clauses in employment contracts today.

Now, if you are let go for a 2nd job as a provider, do you really want to litigate that? Probably not.

Obviously, there are some exceptions to all of this. If you are the church secretary, ok, probably escorting on the side is not a good second job and don't be surprised by the pink slip. If you are handling large sums of money, some employers are going to get a little nervous perhaps. (Let's face it though, escorts are probably better counting and handling cash than half the kids coming out of our schools today.)

Another way to consider this question: Would you hire a known escort for an open position you had? Here is a tough one. Of course, first off, if she is well-known as in been busted and her mugshot posted on the 10 PM news, then your SO and coworkers may be a problem. But if she is relatively UTR, as long as she can meet the qualifications, I say sure.

(Now, do you do a background check on her to see if she has a history of cancellations, NCNS, etc? That might make it a bit harder to high some escorts. This is probably going to raise the ire of some ladies, but I think that the reason a lot of ladies turn to escorting is because the 9-5 grind does not suit them.)

All of that said, once hired, if she is doing the job, showing up for work on time, etc., then I would be loathe to terminate her. It is too dang hard to find good help these days and I would hate to lose a good worker.

[awl4knot]

I am a bit surprised at responses. Only four people, reluctantly, said that firing was to be expected. About 13 said it was none of the employer's business and there were four "I dunno, it depends" responses.

Here is my take on the situation. I work in an industry where discretion and reputation matter a whole lot. My industry is also close knit and the communities that I work in are also fairly concentrated in that I tend to see the same people at the same places fairly often. It would hurt my business enormously if one of our female white collar employees was outed as an escort. So the choice is easy: she has to go, although probably with deep regrets.

With the office or administrative staff, the damage would not be nearly so great and I might view that situation differently, but if there was any doubt, she would be asked to leave.

Is this a double standard? You bet it is, but I could not afford to ignore the situation.

I never thought about it, but now I understand why so many providers are so tough in their screening. Who would want a good day-time gig threatened by an escorting side line?

Thanks for all of the thoughtful comments.

Awl4knot

[Cpalmson]

No need to fire her unless it directly impacts the company. Now, if she gets busted, then you almost have to fire her.

[coven]

I've actually had this situation at work. She was hired by a sales manager that met her in the hobby. When she didn't make her sales numbers for 6 months in a row, I started questioning her about why. She told me the truth about the situation with backup documentation.

I fired the sales manager and kept her on. She was a good employee until she decided to leave to get married. Imagine that!

[awl4knot]

Originally Posted by Cpalmson

No need to fire her unless it directly impacts the company. Now, if she gets busted, then you almost have to fire her.

I am shaking my head. If she gets busted my business suffers greatly in damage to our reputation and the natural loss of business. So why should I not fire her to avoid the potential for the great loss? It's the old adage about shutting the barn door after the horse escapes. What advantage is there keeping a ticking time bomb of an employee?

Tell me what I am missing here?

[Brittanybellastar]

Originally Posted by IDMT

Unless her job performance had suffered as a result of this side job, then I would ignore it as none of my business.

Now, if she was using company time and resources to arrange her side job liaisons, then that's a different story.

I'd ask if I could get a small discount too.

I agree, if she's performing well at work then whatever she is doing when not at work is NOT your business...and I don't think that just pertains to this subject but to basically anything she's doing outside of work!

ALSO if I was being questioned about this from an employer (and especially if i was being 'punished' or fired for it) I would have to bring up the question as to "how did you find out?!" (because unless it was pointed out by someone else, and i wasn't being ridiculously stupid and way too public, that would mean you were obviously looking somewhere hobby related and most likely looking for a provider for yourself. that seems like a double standard to me! If it's ok for you to be a client on your own time, why wouldn't be ok for me to be a whore on mine?)

Now, that's my opinion on MOST cases...depending on what type of job title she held under your company and the type of work she was doing...If she's a school teacher at a private christian school for instance, um...that would probably be grounds for her to be fired, I could understand that....OR if for any reason she was placing the company in jeopardy if ever "caught". Like, if it was some sort of political office during election seasons or idk, something like that....anywhere there was a risk of her causing a huge scandal or something like that, or if she was putting the reputation of the company at serious risk (our economy still sort or sucks ya know, a lot of companies going under! That would be an issue) ...

[Brittanybellastar]

Originally Posted by awl4knot

I am shaking my head. If she gets busted my business suffers greatly in damage to our reputation and the natural loss of business. So why should I not fire her to avoid the potential for the great loss? It's the old adage about shutting the barn door after the horse escapes. What advantage is there keeping a ticking time bomb of an employee?

Tell me what I am missing here?

see this is why i should read an entire thread before adding my 2cents...i end up repeating what's already been brought up!

BUT as I just pointed out in my previous post, I would want to know HOW YOU FOUND HER OUT...If you were engaging in the same type of behavior (of course on the client end) how could you be such a hypocrite to fire her for behavior you obviously found acceptable?

[awl4knot]

Brittany, I've got to disagree with you on a number of points.

Any thing an employee does that may reflect on my business is a legitimate concern. Maybe she has political views that are highly controversial. It could be lots of things and not just hooking.

I doubt that I would tell the employee the reason. In an at-will-employment state you don't need a reason and this would avoid the HOW DID YOU FIND OUT question. How the employer found out is irrelevant and smacks a little of blackmail. Maybe a concerned customer or co-worker dimed her out. Maybe I saw her ad on ECCIE and did some investigation. None of this excuses the threat to the company.

What many would call hypocrisy I see as reality. I am a safe hobbyist and there is little chance of me getting busted and even less chance of it being publicized. The same is not true if one of our female front line employees gets busted as a working girl. It may not make the papers but it would light up my close knit industry. It may not be fair but it is the reality.

This may blur the double standard. I would also fire a male employee who had an overly reckless personal life, but he probably would be counseled first.

[Sensia]

Originally Posted by awl4knot

I don't remember any discussions about this, but I am curious about what the guys would do if they found out that one of their valuable female employees was escorting on the side. Would you fire her as a potential liability to the company? Would you counsel her that if she doesn't quit she will be fired? Would you just ignore it and consider it to be her private business? Or would you enlist her to engage in a new level of customer development?

I am assuming that in an employment-at-will state it is okay to fire an employee who is engaged in illegal activity, even if it is not job related.

And no, I don't have this issue in my office.

Awl4knot

Escorting in and of itself is not illegal. Having sex for money is. Two different things.

I have known many large companies in the past who have fired women when they found out they were topless dancers in their past, just because they have a "professional image" to maintain, and do not want their customer base to think they condone anything of that nature. I can only imagine what would happen if someone in a large company would do if an escort was found out to be working among them.

However I have known these same big companies to give people with past criminal behavior like "assault" or "drug usage" or worse a second chance and let them work for their company. I think it is sad in the US a woman that is in the "sex trade" industry can't get that same kind of second chance. It is hypocritical that as a society we say to women in these professions that they need to "get a real job", and work mainstream as so called "productive" citizens, yet we are unwilling to employ them because they dabbled in the "sex trade" business. No wonder so many women fall back into the sex trade and find it hard to get out of it.

Edit: If I had an employee working for me and found out they were moonlighting as an escort I would have a private talk with them to find out why they are working as an escort on the side. It could be that the employee took a cut in pay, or isn't paid enough to sustain their personal living expenses. There are many reasons why women escort on the side and these are just a couple of examples. If this was a valued employee then look for a solution and find a way to keep them. Just remember, if you are worried about some "guy" outing her, the chances are pretty good that whoever is doing the "outing" is probably a past client, or someone who themselves see's women in the sex trade business.

[guest043013-2]

OK. So you fire an employee because they might embarrass their employer:

1. An escort (ok, lot of people in real world might support you.)
2. Because they are swingers. (Again, may get a lot of support.)
3. Because they are Republican, Democrat, Liberal, Conservative, Tea Party, etc. (hmm, hitting a little closer to home?)
4. Because they are Christian, Muslim, Atheist, Budhist, etc. (ouch)
5. Because they are gay, straight, bi-sexual, asexual, non-sexual? (hmm, another ouch.)
6. Because they drink (in moderation), smoke tobacco, listen to rap music, read/watch porn?
7. They have a child out of wedlock? (Horror of horrors, even in this day and age?)
8. They are fans of the Cowboys, the Steelers, the Heat, the Lakers, the Lions? (Ok, some of those teams might be pretty embarrassing.)

Where do you draw the line? Sure, most in the general public are not going to come to the aid of some little lady who turns a few tricks in the evening to make ends meet, but most of those same people are going to be opposed to food stamps, child care support, etc. for that same little lady.

It might be pretty interesting to see the reaction to a firing for each of the reasons I suggested above.

In my opinion, if it is outside of work hours, does not utilize work resources, then it isn't any business of the employer. Sure, an arrest with front page newspaper blasting that a key employee of company was busted might be an issue for a high profile employer. But, unless the employer was supporting the moonlighting opportunity, they should not be held responsible for an employee's off the clock antics.

[Old-T]

Originally Posted by awl4knot

What many would call hypocrisy I see as reality. I am a safe hobbyist and there is little chance of me getting busted and even less chance of it being publicized.

So you decree yourself a "safe hobbyist" because you have not been caught while decreeing a lady who has not been caught is "not safe"? What pray tell is the difference? If you are the boss it would seem to be even more of an issue in a close knit community.

Originally Posted by awl4knot

I would also fire a male employee who had an overly reckless personal life, but he probably would be counseled first.

Why does one deserve a counseling first and the other not?

Personally, as I already posted, I CAN see that in some industries/companies the cosequence is too severe to accept the risk. I do NOT understand how it is an unacceptable risk for workers but not for their boss. And I most certainly cannot agree that it's fine to fire the lady but her client just gets a "counseling".

There was a wonderfully hypocritical case a few years ago where a boss went to a strip club and found an employee dancing there. He fired her for this same kind of argument, but he kept right on working. Her dancing was a shock to the company's immage, but his beiing there in public oogling her was obviously not.

Yes, this stuff happens, but it is still wrong.

[Madame X]

Originally Posted by awl4knot

What many would call hypocrisy I see as reality.

Be the change you wish to see in the world - the converse is also true. Your cynicism only helps create a world where such negativity is deemed necessary under the guise of defense. Is that what you want? Many social mores have dissolved over time, and this one can as well. If you cling to your *reality*, you're just going to be left looking like an a-hole when the rest of us get over it.

I have an admittedly awesome day job. I've worked for ladies who also do this (they don't know I know, or at least we all put on a good act) and I've worked with men who partake (they usually have the balls to just say so when we run into each other under appropriate circumstances). While we do our best to be discrete and keep up appearances, we understand that the world is too small for absolute secrecy since this is not a solo activity. We're all generally good people though, so it's not really a big deal.

~Mme X~

[Dragon7769]

as a former business owner I would look the other way.

Words to live by - Thou shalt not dip Thy quill in the Company Ink

[awl4knot]

Originally Posted by tiger cat

OK. So you fire an employee because they might embarrass their employer:

1. An escort (ok, lot of people in real world might support you.)
2. Because they are swingers. (Again, may get a lot of support.)
3. Because they are Republican, Democrat, Liberal, Conservative, Tea Party, etc. (hmm, hitting a little closer to home?)
4. Because they are Christian, Muslim, Atheist, Budhist, etc. (ouch)
5. Because they are gay, straight, bi-sexual, asexual, non-sexual? (hmm, another ouch.)
6. Because they drink (in moderation), smoke tobacco, listen to rap music, read/watch porn?
7. They have a child out of wedlock? (Horror of horrors, even in this day and age?)
8. They are fans of the Cowboys, the Steelers, the Heat, the Lakers, the Lions? (Ok, some of those teams might be pretty embarrassing.)

Where do you draw the line? Sure, most in the general public are not going to come to the aid of some little lady who turns a few tricks in the evening to make ends meet, but most of those same people are going to be opposed to food stamps, child care support, etc. for that same little lady.

It might be pretty interesting to see the reaction to a firing for each of the reasons I suggested above.

In my opinion, if it is outside of work hours, does not utilize work resources, then it isn't any business of the employer. Sure, an arrest with front page newspaper blasting that a key employee of company was busted might be an issue for a high profile employer. But, unless the employer was supporting the moonlighting opportunity, they should not be held responsible for an employee's off the clock antics.

Each of these situations is much different than engaging in illegal activity and each requires a different response.

Swinging isn't illegal but it could be seen as showing bad judgment to some employers.

Political affiliations probably won't get you fired but in some industries where political patronage is how you get work, firms acquire a political identity that influences hiring.

In some states it is illegal to discriminate because of religion and going to a church, mosque or synagogue isn't illegal.

In my state it is illegal to discriminate because of sexual identity or preference. But in states where this is not so, I could see how this could be an issue with an image conscious company. It is not something I would do.

Drinking in moderation, listening to rap music and watching porn are not illegal. Smoking is just vile.

It is illegal in my state to discriminate based on family status. Some women make the choice to have a child alone. I would support that choice.

In my area being a Cowboys fan is actionable and unforgiveable.

Where do you draw the line? Wherever you chose so long as it is on the "right" side of the law. An after hours activity that is illegal and that could embarrass the employer is grounds for termination. Drawing lines is what management does to protect the company.

Most of the posters see hooking as benign and this may color their judgments. What would the response be if the activity is running a small time betting operation or pushing a little weed to friends and neighbors or engaging in dog fighting (we will skip cock fighting)? Should an image conscious employer ignore those little illegalities? Where do we draw the line? Wherever we chose to protect the business or promote our own values, so long as it is not illegal.

[awl4knot]

Originally Posted by Madame X

Be the change you wish to see in the world - the converse is also true. Your cynicism only helps create a world where such negativity is deemed necessary under the guise of defense. Is that what you want? Many social mores have dissolved over time, and this one can as well. If you cling to your *reality*, you're just going to be left looking like an a-hole when the rest of us get over it.

I have an admittedly awesome day job. I've worked for ladies who also do this (they don't know I know, or at least we all put on a good act) and I've worked with men who partake (they usually have the balls to just say so when we run into each other under appropriate circumstances). While we do our best to be discrete and keep up appearances, we understand that the world is too small for absolute secrecy since this is not a solo activity. We're all generally good people though, so it's not really a big deal.

~Mme X~

Mme X,

I'm not here to change the world. I only started this thread to see how people view the reality that many employers would terminate a girl who works on the side. I'm not making a moral judgment about the employee or the employer, I'm only trying to explore attitudes.

I am amazed at the naivete and expressed outrage that a hooker (I am using this term for emphasis) could be fired for hooking. I will bet you that any one who was fired for this reason, while being sad and upset at the loss of employment, would completely understand the reason that she was terminated. Some may argue that the employer has a double standard, but that still doesn't undercut the basic reason for the termination: engaging in unlawful conduct.

Mme X, there is a reason why you and your co-workers don't publicize your side jobs. You don't want to be caught. And your point about the world being too small also proves my point: at some point in time the cat is let out of the bag and the side job becomes known and then it is more than a theoretical problem: it starts to hurt in the pocketbook.

One final point. These attitudes aren't going to change in my lifetime and if they do I'll be happy to accommodate them, so I don't worry about being seen as an a-hole, to use your delicate phrasing.

Awl4knot