UBL, Part II

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Marshall

I'd win before the end of voir dire......All I get is $2,500?

2500 dollars and a couple of sessions of waterboarding to see if you would recant your so called victory.

Here is a fair portrayal on waterboarding for the folks that would like to see wtf we are talking about. Keep in mind this is best case scenario. There is no doubt in my mind it is torture. Were any of you that do not believe it is torture to submit to it, there is no doubt in my mind that you would change your mind.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_189280.html

[gnadfly]

Originally Posted by Moe

Hey gnad, why don't we waterboard all suspects....if it saves lives. That is the arguement, isn't it? Saving lives? I say we start with Dick Cheney. What say you oh all knowing one? If it is not torture, why the fuc don't our police departments use it? I mean they interrogate people, waterboarding is the next logical step.
Why are the Dick Cheney sympathizers such pussies on this subject. Either it is torture or it ain't, if it ain't then get ready to have it done on your ass. If you are not man enough for that to happen quit being such a little girl and asking other to do it to the bad guys so you can come on here and beat your chest on how tough on terror you are. I ain't buying you crap.

Your lack of reading compreshion is only exceeded by your inability to put together a coherent arguement, Moe.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by gnadfly

Your lack of reading compreshion is only exceeded by your inability to put together a coherent arguement, Moe.

Coming from Curly Joe DeRita, I will take that as a compliment.

Now come over here and lets play waterboard up your pretty lil nose.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

Because, my fuzzy thinking liberal friend, police departments arrest and interrogate people that are accused of committing crimes. Our military defends the country. Conceptually similar, but quite different.

An enemy combatant is not committing a crime -- they are pursuing diplomacy by another means. Most combatants agree to be bound by the codes of war such as TTH referenced. Terrorists like OBL & KSM are not criminals. They are combatants who don't subscribe to the rules of war and thus should not be accorded the same respect/forbearance that would be shown a member of a military that did abide by those rules. Our political rhetoric often clouds the issue by referring to "crimes against humanity" and 'seeking justice for the victims". We aren't seeking justice in a legal sense, we are seeking retribution as a nation by killing those bastards and making an example of them to deter others from trying it. At its roots though is defense.

While water boarding may arguably be a violation of the rules of war, if those rules don't apply, it is a very humane way to extract the information needed as it produces no lasting damage to the individual (unlike say pulling out their fingernails like the Viet Cong did to some of our guys in the 60/70's). Consider this analogy, you are a boxer and are used to fighting according to the rules of that sport. You come up against a UFC kind of opponent who proceeds to kick you in the balls? Are you just going to stand there with your gloves up because that is the way you are supposed to fight?

Well stated PJ.

Did you ever read about how the VC would tie captured U.S. soldiers to a stake with their hands tied behind their back? Then the VC would put a live rat in a burlap sack, put the sack over the man’s head and then cinch tie the sack at the man’s neck. The rat would go for the soft parts: the eyes, the cheeks, the nose, the tongue. Witnessing such torture often broke the resolve of even the most stalwart among the remaining captives.

More recently, Al Qaida’s ritual beheadings seem to be all the rage. Anybody remember Daniel Pearl? Sometimes it’s tough staying on the moral high-ground, but I admit, we should always try.

WTF’s opinion in these matters might be different had he ever volunteered to serve in the U.S. military rather just than reaping the fruit of financial success wrought from the service of others. WTF is very fond of talking about seeing it from other peoples’ POV, so that old saying, “walk a mile in their shoes” seems appropriate here. This would be even more appropriate if he’d under gone the rigors of SEAL training—which is not that different from the enhanced interrogation techniques used on some GITMO detainees.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by WTF

2500 dollars and a couple of sessions of waterboarding to see if you would recant your so called victory.

Here is a fair portrayal on waterboarding for the folks that would like to see wtf we are talking about. Keep in mind this is best case scenario. There is no doubt in my mind it is torture. Were any of you that do not believe it is torture to submit to it, there is no doubt in my mind that you would change your mind.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_189280.html

Honestly, I'd rather be water-boarded rather than read anything from the Huffington Post. BTW, I don't have to read about it. I've already experienced it personally.

[Guest083011]

Is this horse officially out of life, beaten wise?

[WTF]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

WTF’s opinion in these matters might be different had he ever volunteered to serve in the U.S. military rather just than reaping the fruit of financial success wrought from the service of others. .

First....they volunteered for a JOB. That is WTF everyone does in this country. They apply to go to work for IBM. IBM either hires them or not. That is exactly WTF they do in the military. It is a God Damn J O B.

You do not want to do it go volunteer for another type of job but do not come around my ass looking for a pat on the head for doing the job you volunteered for. You did it because you wanted to...not because I wanted you to.

My taxes pay for your job, so you need me as much as I need you. A simple concepts some of you war warriors have trouble understanding and some liberals have trouble articulating.

By you , I mean the military, and when I say me, I mean the taxpayers.

Quit thumping your chest, it is unseemly.

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

. WTF is very fond of talking about seeing it from other peoples’ POV, so that old saying, “walk a mile in their shoes” seems appropriate here. This would be even more appropriate if he’d under gone the rigors of SEAL training—which is not that different from the enhanced interrogation techniques used on some GITMO detainees.

Oh Golly....now we have trained these GITMO detainees to be Navy Seals. How very nice of us.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Honestly, I'd rather be water-boarded rather than read anything from the Huffington Post. BTW, I don't have to read about it. I've already experienced it personally.

It was a video. It was not done by the Huffington Post.

Were you a prisoner somewhere and were waterboarded? Were you captured along with Sen. John McCain? Do you know his thoughts on the matter? If so, do you question his military service? Would you throw yours up in his face?


If not, I really doubt that those conditions can be replicated. Kinda like the difference between getting in a cage with a tame lion and a wild one.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by WTF

First....they volunteered for a JOB. That is WTF everyone does in this country. They apply to go to work for IBM. IBM either hires them or not. That is exactly WTF they do in the military. It is a God Damn J O B.

You do not want to do it go volunteer for another type of job but do not come around my ass looking for a pat on the head for doing the job you volunteered for. You did it because you wanted to...not because I wanted you to.

My taxes pay for your job, so you need me as much as I need you. A simple concepts some of you war warriors have trouble understanding and some liberals have trouble articulating.

By you , I mean the military, and when I say me, I mean the taxpayers.

Quit thumping your chest, it is unseemly.






Oh Golly....now we have trained these GITMO detainees to be Navy Seals. How very nice of us.

Unless you are an IBM employee or you own their stock, how has IBM directly helped you? I paid taxes my entire military career: and before and since. So what is your point?

For the record, my experience with water-boarding was training; I know there is a difference, and I am not trying to justify its use. No brag, I'm just stating my experiences are less "arm-chair" than most others who are posting their opinions here.

[Randy4Candy]

It's a question of restraint and proper application. If one steps back just a little bit and looks at the facts, there is still quite a bit of question as to whether or not waterboarding really works. Personally, I'd say that it would work on some but not on others. Kinda like punishing children, one size doesn't fit all and you have to find what will push the appropriate "act right" button. It does seem, from the accounts I have seen and read, that the useful info was revealed long after the waterboarding. If that's true, then how valuable was it really if the info was gained by other means and still over a longer period of time which was not shortened by "enhancement?"

What we limp-wristed lefties are really concerned about is over use and the penchant of our "action oriented" bretheren wearing the righty-tighties to quit thinking, give in to the neanderthal drool and go nucking futz. Yes, we should be concerned not to hand out recruiting tools to those who hate America, especially if there are other means to achieve the same end.

IB, I don't think anyone is really disparaging anyone's service. We are all thankful for those who decide to wear the uniforms of our country and commit to possibly paying the ultimate price. However, that choice and the respect that accompanies it doesn't necessarily provide extra weight in other areas.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Unless you are an IBM employee or you own their stock, how has IBM directly helped you?

You are shitting me right? Innovation helps us all. IBM innovates. Thus IBM directly helps me.

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

? I paid taxes my entire military career: and before and since. So what is your point?

My point is that OUR taxes pay for the military....not just taxes on military personnel. If you want to fund your own military then you may have a point. If you volunteered for free, then you might have a point.

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

For the record, my experience with water-boarding was training; I know there is a difference, and I am not trying to justify it's use. No brag, I'm just stating my experiences are less "arm-chair" than most others who are posting their opinions here.

OK and I almost drowned in New Braunfels, Texas in the Guadalupe River.

Not sure why we need to inject these things into the discussion.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by WTF

You are shitting me right? Innovation helps us all. IBM innovates. Thus IBM directly helps me. Nothing another company would or could not have eventually done. And that’s my point. The U.S. military has provided a safe and secure business environment in which IBM—and all other U.S. companies—can flourish. .



My point is that OUR taxes pay for the military....not just taxes on military personnel. If you want to fund your own military then you may have a point. If you volunteered for free, then you might have a point. My first stint, not so voluntary.


Not sure why we need to inject these things into the discussion.

OK and I almost drowned in New Braunfels, Texas in the Guadalupe River. Whiskey and water should only be mixed together in a glass.


Not sure why we need to inject these things into the discussion but I will play along.

..

[Marshall]

Originally Posted by WTF

2500 dollars and a couple of sessions of waterboarding to see if you would recant your so called victory.

Here is a fair portrayal on waterboarding for the folks that would like to see wtf we are talking about. Keep in mind this is best case scenario. There is no doubt in my mind it is torture. Were any of you that do not believe it is torture to submit to it, there is no doubt in my mind that you would change your mind.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_189280.html

As I said before, I have been water-boarded as part of my military training....I stand by what I said........

[Marshall]

Originally Posted by WTF

My taxes pay for your job, so you need me as much as I need you.



Oh Golly....now we have trained these GITMO detainees to be Navy Seals. How very nice of us.

No, just seals HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

FICA taxes do not pay for the military......

[Marcus Aurelius]

Not everyone served in the military because it was a job.