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Yeah, by only giving Putin what he wants. I think the people of Ukraine have made it fairly clear that they don't care to give those concessions. LOL
That's not necessarily true McCain. Putin probably would accept peace without getting everything he wants. And the attitudes of Ukrainians are changing, particularly the ones in the eastern and southern parts of the country who are most affected by the war.
Also, there's polling conducted between 2015 and 2021 by Western and Ukrainian organizations that indicate the majority of people in areas currently occupied by Russia would have preferred affiliation with Russia, either as an oblast or a territory, to Ukraine. Admittedly, there was also polling in the Donbas (but not to my knowledge in Crimea) that would indicate the opposite.
That's not necessarily true McCain. Putin probably would accept peace without getting everything he wants. And the attitudes of Ukrainians are changing, particularly the ones in the eastern and southern parts of the country who are most affected by the war.
Also, there's polling conducted between 2015 and 2021 by Western and Ukrainian organizations that indicate the majority of people in areas currently occupied by Russia would have preferred affiliation with Russia, either as an oblast or a territory, to Ukraine. Admittedly, there was also polling in the Donbas (but not to my knowledge in Crimea) that would indicate the opposite.
FYI, an oblast is like a state in the USA.
And there's a process in the Ukrainian constitution to address what they might want to happen. It doesn't involve Russia invading to seize control and running sham referendums.
Too bad that Obama let Putin have Crimea a decade ago. Ukraine isn't getting that back. Biden okayed a small incursion, so that's another one on the Dems. Ukraine will have to give up territory. That's a given. But Dems and Zelensky want this war to continue so they can line their pockets. Concessions will have to come from both sides in the end, so some people need to quit pretending otherwise.
Too bad that Obama let Putin have Crimea a decade ago. Ukraine isn't getting that back. Biden okayed a small incursion, so that's another one on the Dems. Ukraine will have to give up territory. That's a given. But Dems and Zelensky want this war to continue so they can line their pockets. Concessions will have to come from both sides in the end, so some people need to quit pretending otherwise.
And there's a process in the Ukrainian constitution to address what they might want to happen. It doesn't involve Russia invading to seize control and running sham referendums.
Is that relevant to my reply to McCain's post?
You're smart Gristle. You understand the difference between a sham referendum and a poll run by a western or Ukrainian organization. If you're questioning the veracity of what I wrote, here's more.
From the Kyiv Post, November 9, 2019:
Only 5.1 percent of people living in the Russia-controlled parts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions want Ukraine to regain control over the territories under the old terms, according to the findings of a joint survey conducted by the Ukrainian Institute of the Future and the Dzerkalo Tyzhnia...Half (50.9 percent) want a union with Russia and another 13.4 percent said the region should accede to Russia with a “special status...The face-to-face survey polled 1,606 respondents (800 in occupied Luhansk Oblast and 806 in the occupied Donetsk Oblast) on Oct. 7-31, using the 2014 statistics for comparison, after controlling for existing demographic data on temporarily displaced people who left the territories. The margin of error does not exceed 3.2 percent.
The following pertains to the "sham" referendum on Crimean reunification with Russia, after the occupation:
The results of a survey by the U.S. government Broadcasting Board of Governors agency, conducted April 21–29, 2014, showed that 83% of Crimeans felt that the results of the March 16 referendum on Crimea's status likely reflected the views of most people there, whereas this view is shared only by 30% in the rest of Ukraine.
Gallup conducted an immediate post-referendum survey of Ukraine and Crimea and published their results in April 2014. Gallup reported that, among the population of Crimea, 93.6% of ethnic Russians and 68.4% of ethnic Ukrainians believed the referendum result accurately represents the will of the Crimean people. Only 1.7% of ethnic Russians and 14.5% of ethnic Ukrainians living in Crimea thought that the referendum results didn't accurately reflect the views of the Crimean people.[133] According to the Gallup's survey performed on April 21–27, 82.8% of Crimean people consider the referendum results reflecting most Crimeans' views,[134] and 73.9% of Crimeans say Crimea's becoming part of Russia will make life better for themselves and their families, while 5.5% disagree.[134]
May 2014, Washington, D.C., pollster Pew Research published results of a survey that encompassed Crimea, Ukraine, and Russia, in which it was reported that 88% of Crimeans believed the government of Kyiv should officially recognize the result of Crimea's referendum.[135] According to survey carried out by Pew Research Center in April 2014, the majority of Crimean residents say they believed the referendum was free and fair (91%) and that the government in Kyiv ought to recognize the results of the vote (88%).
Between December 12 and 25, 2014, Levada-Center carried out a survey of Crimea that was commissioned by John O'Loughlin, College Professor of Distinction and Professor of Geography at the University of Colorado in Boulder, and Gerard Toal (Gearóid Ó Tuathail), Professor of Government and International Affairs at Virginia Tech's National Capital Region campus. The results of that survey were published by Open Democracy in March, 2015, and reported that, overall, 84% of Crimeans felt the choice to secede from Ukraine and accede to Russia was "Absolutely the right decision", with the next-largest segment of respondents saying the decision to return to Russia was the "Generally right decision". The survey commissioners, John O'Loughlin and Gerard Toal, wrote in their Open Democracy article that, while they felt that the referendum was "an illegal act under international law", their survey shows "It is also an act that enjoys the widespread support of the peninsula's inhabitants, with the important exception of its Crimean Tatar population" with "widespread support for Crimea's decision to secede from Ukraine and join the Russian Federation one year ago". Their survey also reported that a majority of Crimean Tatars viewed Crimea's return to Russia as either the "Absolutely right decision" or the "Generally right decision".
From January 16 – 22, 2015, Germany's GfK Group, with support from the Canada Fund for Local Initiatives, followed-up their pre-referendum survey of Crimeans' voting intention with a post-referendum survey about how satisfied Crimeans are with the outcome of their referendum. GfK's post-referendum survey found that 82% of Crimeans "Fully endorse" Crimea's referendum and return to Russia, while another 11% "Mostly endorse" it.[138] According to a poll of the Crimeans by the Ukrainian branch of Germany's biggest market research organization, GfK, on January 16–22, 2015: "Eighty-two percent of those polled said they fully supported Crimea's inclusion in Russia, and another 11 percent expressed partial support. Only 4 percent spoke out against it. ... Fifty-one percent reported their well-being had improved in the past year."[139] Bloomberg's Leonid Bershidsky noted that "The calls were made on Jan. 16–22 to people living in towns with a population of 20,000 or more, which probably led to the peninsula's native population, the Tatars, being underrepresented because many of them live in small villages. On the other hand, no calls were placed in Sevastopol, the most pro-Russian city in Crimea. Even with these limitations, it was the most representative independent poll taken on the peninsula since its annexation
In November 2017, German pollster ZOiS published the results of a survey which reported that 85.3% of Crimeans excluding Tatars, and 61.8% of Crimean Tatars excluding other Crimean demographics thought that Crimeans would either vote the same or that the majority would vote the same as they did in 2014 if the same referendum were held at the present time (November 2017). 3.8% of Crimeans excluding Tatars, and 16.2% of Crimean Tatars responded that most Crimeans would vote differently if the same referendum were held again at that time in 2017.
In December 2019, Levada-Center was again commissioned by John O'Loughlin, College Professor of Distinction and Professor of Geography at the University of Colorado in Boulder, and Gerard Toal (Gearóid Ó Tuathail), Professor of Government and International Affairs at Virginia Tech's National Capital Region campus, to carry-out a survey of Crimea's attitudes towards their referendum and living as a part of Russia. The survey aimed to repeat the questions of their 2014 survey. The 2019 survey found that 82% of Crimea's population supported Crimea's accession to Russia, as opposed to 86% in 2014. The survey also found that 58% of Crimean Tatars now supported Crimea's accession to Russia, as opposed to 39% in 2014.[
while that might be true, any negotiator worth his salt knows that you don't start making concessions at the outset. whose side is Trump on, anyway?
clearly, international law holds Russia as the party who violated clear legal standards. (which is why he is now an indicted war criminal.) Trump should be fighting for the best deal for Ukraine, not for Putin.
Trump's opening bid should have been, "Vlad, you took territory that wasn't your's by force. we want you to give it all back, and we'll remove all sanctions." Vlad woulda said, " That's all well and good, but then there's the facts on the ground."
and then the parties would haggle from there..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lantern2814
Too bad that Obama let Putin have Crimea a decade ago. Ukraine isn't getting that back. Biden okayed a small incursion, so that's another one on the Dems. Ukraine will have to give up territory. That's a given. But Dems and Zelensky want this war to continue so they can line their pockets. Concessions will have to come from both sides in the end, so some people need to quit pretending otherwise.
while that might be true, any negotiator worth his salt knows that you don't start making concessions at the outset. whose side is Trump on, anyway?
clearly, international law holds Russia as the party who violated clear legal standards. (which is why he is now an indicted war criminal.) Trump should be fighting for the best deal for Ukraine, not for Putin.
Trump's opening bid should have been, "Vlad, you took territory that wasn't your's by force. we want you to give it all back, and we'll remove all sanctions." Vlad woulda said, " That's all well and good, but then there's the facts on the ground."
and then the parties would haggle from there..
your assumptions are incorrect
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDGristle
Quite relevant. Go back and review the constitutional provision
so are yours because you and others refuse to see the truth of Ukraine's involvement in this. they aren't the Lilly white Vestal Virgins many want people to believe they are .. see below for further information
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiny
Is that relevant to my reply to McCain's post?
You're smart Gristle. You understand the difference between a sham referendum and a poll run by a western or Ukrainian organization. If you're questioning the veracity of what I wrote, here's more.
From the Kyiv Post, November 9, 2019:
Only 5.1 percent of people living in the Russia-controlled parts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions want Ukraine to regain control over the territories under the old terms, according to the findings of a joint survey conducted by the Ukrainian Institute of the Future and the Dzerkalo Tyzhnia...Half (50.9 percent) want a union with Russia and another 13.4 percent said the region should accede to Russia with a “special status...The face-to-face survey polled 1,606 respondents (800 in occupied Luhansk Oblast and 806 in the occupied Donetsk Oblast) on Oct. 7-31, using the 2014 statistics for comparison, after controlling for existing demographic data on temporarily displaced people who left the territories. The margin of error does not exceed 3.2 percent.
The following pertains to the "sham" referendum on Crimean reunification with Russia, after the occupation:
The results of a survey by the U.S. government Broadcasting Board of Governors agency, conducted April 21–29, 2014, showed that 83% of Crimeans felt that the results of the March 16 referendum on Crimea's status likely reflected the views of most people there, whereas this view is shared only by 30% in the rest of Ukraine.
Gallup conducted an immediate post-referendum survey of Ukraine and Crimea and published their results in April 2014. Gallup reported that, among the population of Crimea, 93.6% of ethnic Russians and 68.4% of ethnic Ukrainians believed the referendum result accurately represents the will of the Crimean people. Only 1.7% of ethnic Russians and 14.5% of ethnic Ukrainians living in Crimea thought that the referendum results didn't accurately reflect the views of the Crimean people.[133] According to the Gallup's survey performed on April 21–27, 82.8% of Crimean people consider the referendum results reflecting most Crimeans' views,[134] and 73.9% of Crimeans say Crimea's becoming part of Russia will make life better for themselves and their families, while 5.5% disagree.[134]
May 2014, Washington, D.C., pollster Pew Research published results of a survey that encompassed Crimea, Ukraine, and Russia, in which it was reported that 88% of Crimeans believed the government of Kyiv should officially recognize the result of Crimea's referendum.[135] According to survey carried out by Pew Research Center in April 2014, the majority of Crimean residents say they believed the referendum was free and fair (91%) and that the government in Kyiv ought to recognize the results of the vote (88%).
Between December 12 and 25, 2014, Levada-Center carried out a survey of Crimea that was commissioned by John O'Loughlin, College Professor of Distinction and Professor of Geography at the University of Colorado in Boulder, and Gerard Toal (Gearóid Ó Tuathail), Professor of Government and International Affairs at Virginia Tech's National Capital Region campus. The results of that survey were published by Open Democracy in March, 2015, and reported that, overall, 84% of Crimeans felt the choice to secede from Ukraine and accede to Russia was "Absolutely the right decision", with the next-largest segment of respondents saying the decision to return to Russia was the "Generally right decision". The survey commissioners, John O'Loughlin and Gerard Toal, wrote in their Open Democracy article that, while they felt that the referendum was "an illegal act under international law", their survey shows "It is also an act that enjoys the widespread support of the peninsula's inhabitants, with the important exception of its Crimean Tatar population" with "widespread support for Crimea's decision to secede from Ukraine and join the Russian Federation one year ago". Their survey also reported that a majority of Crimean Tatars viewed Crimea's return to Russia as either the "Absolutely right decision" or the "Generally right decision".
From January 16 – 22, 2015, Germany's GfK Group, with support from the Canada Fund for Local Initiatives, followed-up their pre-referendum survey of Crimeans' voting intention with a post-referendum survey about how satisfied Crimeans are with the outcome of their referendum. GfK's post-referendum survey found that 82% of Crimeans "Fully endorse" Crimea's referendum and return to Russia, while another 11% "Mostly endorse" it.[138] According to a poll of the Crimeans by the Ukrainian branch of Germany's biggest market research organization, GfK, on January 16–22, 2015: "Eighty-two percent of those polled said they fully supported Crimea's inclusion in Russia, and another 11 percent expressed partial support. Only 4 percent spoke out against it. ... Fifty-one percent reported their well-being had improved in the past year."[139] Bloomberg's Leonid Bershidsky noted that "The calls were made on Jan. 16–22 to people living in towns with a population of 20,000 or more, which probably led to the peninsula's native population, the Tatars, being underrepresented because many of them live in small villages. On the other hand, no calls were placed in Sevastopol, the most pro-Russian city in Crimea. Even with these limitations, it was the most representative independent poll taken on the peninsula since its annexation
In November 2017, German pollster ZOiS published the results of a survey which reported that 85.3% of Crimeans excluding Tatars, and 61.8% of Crimean Tatars excluding other Crimean demographics thought that Crimeans would either vote the same or that the majority would vote the same as they did in 2014 if the same referendum were held at the present time (November 2017). 3.8% of Crimeans excluding Tatars, and 16.2% of Crimean Tatars responded that most Crimeans would vote differently if the same referendum were held again at that time in 2017.
In December 2019, Levada-Center was again commissioned by John O'Loughlin, College Professor of Distinction and Professor of Geography at the University of Colorado in Boulder, and Gerard Toal (Gearóid Ó Tuathail), Professor of Government and International Affairs at Virginia Tech's National Capital Region campus, to carry-out a survey of Crimea's attitudes towards their referendum and living as a part of Russia. The survey aimed to repeat the questions of their 2014 survey. The 2019 survey found that 82% of Crimea's population supported Crimea's accession to Russia, as opposed to 86% in 2014. The survey also found that 58% of Crimean Tatars now supported Crimea's accession to Russia, as opposed to 39% in 2014.[
