Shithole countries use face masks

[eccielover]

Originally Posted by Tiny

That doesn't explain Central European countries that use face masks vs. Western Europe so well. You left out the BCG vaccine, which is given to children in some countries but not others. It may provide some protection, and is given in some Asian and European countries.

Yes, the point being that there is nothing yet definitive that masks are or aren't the panacea you have been hyping for weeks.

Many of the central European countries only adopted face mask usage a couple weeks before the recommendations here. And any or all of the cultural and lifestyle items I mentioned still apply as differences there.

You are waffling back and forth over masks vs. testing over and over again, but those are just two potential factors. The full picture is far wider and what's right for one country or even area is not necessarily what's right for another country or area.

Culture and lifestyle, I still think, are more important factors. The simple difference in NY to Texas shows that and even here in PA, the difference between Philly and much of the rest of the state is widely apparent.

But as a result of knee jerk reactions, much of Pennsylvania was under a lockdown stranglehold while conditions or the need for masks didn't support that.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by eccielover

Yes, the point being that there is nothing yet definitive that masks are or aren't the panacea you have been hyping for weeks.

Many of the central European countries only adopted face mask usage a couple weeks before the recommendations here. And any or all of the cultural and lifestyle items I mentioned still apply as differences there.

You are waffling back and forth over masks vs. testing over and over again, but those are just two potential factors. The full picture is far wider and what's right for one country or even area is not necessarily what's right for another country or area.

Culture and lifestyle, I still think, are more important factors. The simple difference in NY to Texas shows that and even here in PA, the difference between Philly and much of the rest of the state is widely apparent.

But as a result of knee jerk reactions, much of Pennsylvania was under a lockdown stranglehold while conditions or the need for masks didn't support that.

I haven't been waffling. I've been clear that testing and tracing are important too. People on this board have been all over me about that.

You're right. There are a lot of factors. New Zealand has done very well at minimizing deaths with a complete lockdown, that decimated their economy. You can chalk up part of Japan's success to tracing. South Korea has been very good at testing and tracing, as has Hong Kong. Hong Kong also is better at treatment than other countries. They use a triple anti-viral cocktail, and, repeating myself like a broken record, only four people have died there, in one of the most densely populated cities in the world, despite their having more contact per capita with people from Wuhan and China than anyplace outside of the PRC proper.

A common denominator for many successful countries though is masks, and that's the only factor besides social distancing that we individually have any control over. If you want to discard masks, testing and tracing, then you're left with lockdowns. And regardless of what you or I think, when the virus gets out of control like it did in New York, Spain or Italy, there will be lockdowns. When those happen, the economy will suffer greatly and people will die. That's what happened here. Now as taxpayers at some point we're going to have to dip into our pockets to pay down the $5 trillion in national debt that's going to result from our ineptitude.

[eccielover]

Originally Posted by Tiny

I haven't been waffling. I've been clear that testing and tracing are important too. People on this board have been all over me about that.

Your opening of this thread alone was part of your waffling in that you decided masks were now "maybe" more important than the testing itself after going the hard line in previous threads that testing is what made these other countries success stories.

You are as of late coming across very biased in your statements in any way that makes Trump or his administration look bad, even if it as I pointed out makes your statements juvenile and uneducated.

That you would sign up for a vaccine that when presented in context you call too dangerous is a tell tale sign of your bias.

That one day it's testing is the problem because the availability of test kits can somehow be pinned on Trump is relevant and then it's masks, because Trump is taking the line of many other experts in that they really won't make a big difference, but you can denigrate him for that.

You are largely rational in your posts that I've seen, but you certainly suffer moderate TDS at this point and it's showing in your ongoing posts.

[bambino]

Originally Posted by eccielover

Your opening of this thread alone was part of your waffling in that you decided masks were now "maybe" more important than the testing itself after going the hard line in previous threads that testing is what made these other countries success stories.

You are as of late coming across very biased in your statements in any way that makes Trump or his administration look bad, even if it as I pointed out makes your statements juvenile and uneducated.

That you would sign up for a vaccine that when presented in context you call too dangerous is a tell tale sign of your bias.

That one day it's testing is the problem because the availability of test kits can somehow be pinned on Trump is relevant and then it's masks, because Trump is taking the line of many other experts in that they really won't make a big difference, but you can denigrate him for that.

You are largely rational in your posts that I've seen, but you certainly suffer moderate TDS at this point and it's showing in your ongoing posts.

He did the same thing with tarrifs. He’s got passive/aggressive TDS..

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by eccielover

You are largely rational in your posts that I've seen, but you certainly suffer moderate TDS at this point and it's showing in your ongoing posts.

Originally Posted by bambino

He did the same thing with tarrifs. He’s got passive/aggressive TDS..

I don't have passive/aggressive TDS. Look at every reference I've made to Trump in this thread for example. I said the CDC and FDA, not Trump, were primarily responsible for the delays in ramping up testing. I suggested Trump, Schumer and Pelosi eat pussy together. I said that CNN had morphed into an anti-Trump network. And I said that Trump is thin-skinned. That's not passive aggressive, that's the way most informed people view the world, except for the pussy eating part. As to tariffs, yes, I believe in free trade, while protecting the security interests of the United States. That was the position of the Republican Party after Herbert Hoover and the Great Depression and before Donald Trump.

In other words, I haven't been brainwashed by the media to believe Trump is the Messiah or the Antichrist. I do not suffer from TDS, where I detest everything he says or does, or from TES (Trump Enlightenment Syndrome), where I have to do mental gymnastics to justify everything he says or does. Trump belongs in the same category as Barrack Obama, George W. Bush and Jimmy Carter. He's a mediocre president.

[oeb11]

Originally Posted by Tiny

That doesn't explain Central European countries that use face masks vs. Western Europe so well. You left out the BCG vaccine, which is given to children in some countries but not others. It may provide some protection, and is given in some Asian and European countries.

BCG vaccine is little used in the US - it is a vaccine for very specific uses for anti-tuberculosis treatment, and efficacy isvariable.

No known anti-Wuhan virus action or anti-viral action.

https://www.cdc.gov/tb/publications/...ention/bcg.htm

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by oeb11

BCG vaccine is little used in the US - it is a vaccine for very specific uses for anti-tuberculosis treatment, and efficacy isvariable.

No known anti-Wuhan virus action or anti-viral action.

https://www.cdc.gov/tb/publications/...ention/bcg.htm

All true Oeb, although there's speculation that the vaccine creates "trained immunity" against viral infections:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-020-0337-y


Some have argued that one of the reasons Japan is coming through this well, despite no lockdowns and poor testing, is because of the BCG vaccine, not because of masks. Asia and central Europe use the vaccine. On the other hand you've got places like Brazil, Iran and Russia where the virus is out of control, and they vaccinate with BCG too. And Western Europe used to use it. So it's very possible it doesn't help prevent Covid 19.

[oeb11]

Tiny - Thank You - good reference. As the article conclusions state - it is a "Hypothesis" - and that only - it is a thoughtful review of immune system function - but no data in support.

It is not suggested to go out and get BCG vaccine - any more than Everyone in America should be on OHCQ.


However - if effective and Trump got the vaccine - all the DPST would refuse out of general principle.



Might be a good thing for natural selection and the health of the country!

[Why_Yes_I_Do]

>70% of COVID deaths come from nursing homes, here and elsewhere
>80% of deaths are from underlying conditions
Most of the rest come from 60+ yr olds with underlying conditions.

Best course of action; protect the elderly, especially with under lying conditions
Worst course of action; destroy the economy and put COVID patients in nursing homes.

That's how I see it across the globe.

[Chung Tran]

Originally Posted by Why_Yes_I_Do

>70% of COVID deaths come from nursing homes, here and elsewhere
>80% of deaths are from underlying conditions
Most of the rest come from 60+ yr olds with underlying conditions.

Best course of action; protect the elderly, especially with under lying conditions
Worst course of action; destroy the economy and put COVID patients in nursing homes.

That's how I see it across the globe.

pretty much sums it up!

Originally Posted by Tiny

Trump belongs in the same category as Barrack Obama, George W. Bush and Jimmy Carter. He's a mediocre president.

I just saw Jimmy and Rosalyn doing a Jig.. calling Jimmy's Presidency "mediocre" is the kindest thing they have heard in 4 decades

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Why_Yes_I_Do

>70% of COVID deaths come from nursing homes, here and elsewhere
>80% of deaths are from underlying conditions
Most of the rest come from 60+ yr olds with underlying conditions.

Best course of action; protect the elderly, especially with under lying conditions
Worst course of action; destroy the economy and put COVID patients in nursing homes.

That's how I see it across the globe.

It's more like 1/3rd to 42% of deaths occur in nursing homes in the U.S. And one of these sources says it's 40.8% worldwide:

https://freopp.org/the-covid-19-nurs...s-3a47433c3f70

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-homes-us.html

https://www.aarp.org/caregiving/heal...es-deaths.html

Yeah, protecting the elderly, especially with underlying conditions, is a great course of action.

I may be simple minded, but masks, testing, tracing, and a vaccine are what are required to avoid future lockdowns and get people comfortable going back to work, eating out, going to stores, etc.

Maybe I've misjudged exactly what you believe. For example, maybe you're not an anti-vaxxer. However, it looks like the policies you favor are a recipe for destruction of the economy.

[ICU 812]

Mask on or mssk off . . .I have lived in a few places in Africa and the middle east . . . and YES, they are shit-hole countries.

Nobody WANTS to go to Egypt for a high-tech job. Nobody wants to go to Botswana or whatever they call what used to be the Congo.

Nobody wants to go to New Guinea or Myanmar. The only thing going for most of the countries of the South Pacific is the weather.

Evern many Brits would rather livr somewhere else.

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by ICU 812

Mask on or mssk off . . .I have lived in a few places in Africa and the middle east . . . and YES, they are shit-hole countries.

Nobody WANTS to go to Egypt for a high-tech job. Nobody wants to go to Botswana or whatever they call what used to be the Congo.

that would be the congo republic, but thats fiction. they're still fighting over there.

Nobody wants to go to New Guinea or Myanmar. The only thing going for most of the countries of the South Pacific is the weather.

Even many Brits would rather live somewhere else.

lot of ex-pats live in south pacific. wonder why....

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

that would be the congo republic, but thats fiction. they're still fighting over there.

I've actually been there. Nobody in this thread believes anything I say but I really do know shithole countries. Maybe not as well as ICU 812, but still pretty well.

[Tiny]

We've got remdesivir and dexamethasone, and a higher % of people being infected with Covid-19 are younger. Now here's something else to add to the list of why the infection fatality rate of Covid-19 should decrease. More people are wearing masks.

If you wear a mask, it cuts down on the amount of virus you're exposed to when/if you're infected. This, as strange is it may seem, reduces the severity of the symptoms.

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...he-coronavirus

Masks don’t filter out all viral particles, [Dr. Monica] Gandhi said. But even cloth face masks filter out a majority of viral particles.

And even if a person wearing a mask gets infected, the mask — by filtering out most of the viral particles exhaled by the infected person — probably leads to less severe disease, Gandhi said.

The idea that a lower dose of virus when being infected brings less illness is a well-worn idea in medicine.

Even going back to 1938, there was a study showing that by giving mice a higher dose of a deadly virus, the mice were more likely to get severe disease and die, Gandhi said.

The same principle applies to humans. A study published in 2015 gave healthy volunteers varying doses of a flu virus; those who got higher doses got sicker, with more coughing and shortness of breath, Gandhi said.

And another study suggested that the reason the second wave of the 1918-19 flu pandemic was the deadliest in the U.S. was because of the overcrowded conditions faced in Army camps as World War I wound down. “In 1918, the Army camps [were] characterized by a high number of contacts between people and by a high case-fatality rate, sometimes 5 to 8 times higher than the case-fatality rate among civilian communities,” the study said.

Finally, a study published in May found that surgical mask partitions significantly reduced the transmission of the coronavirus among hamsters. And even if the hamsters protected by the mask partitions acquired the coronavirus, “they were more likely to get very mild disease,” Gandhi said.

....There’s more evidence that masks can be protective — even when wearers do become infected. She cited an outbreak at a seafood plant in Oregon where employees were given masks, and 95% of those who were infected were asymptomatic.

Gandhi also cited the experience of a cruise ship that was traveling from Argentina to Antartica in March when the coronavirus infected people on board, as documented in a recent study. Passengers got surgical masks; the crew got N95 masks.

But instead of about 40% of those infected being asymptomatic — which is what would normally be expected — 81% of those testing positive were asymptomatic, and the masking may have helped reduce the severity of disease in people on board, Gandhi said.

The protective effects are also seen in countries where masks are universally accepted for years, such as Taiwan, Thailand, South Korea and Singapore. “They have all seen cases as they opened ... but not deaths,” Gandhi said.

The Czech Republic moved early to require masks, issuing an order in mid-March, Gandhi said; that’s about three months before Gov. Gavin Newsom did so statewide in California. But in the Czech Republic, “every time their cases would go up ...their death rate was totally flat. So they didn’t get the severe illness with these cases going on.”

By May, the Czech Republic lifted its face mask rule. “And they’re doing great,” Gandhi said.