The facts do not justify the fear

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by oeb11

HF- Thank you , Sir - Gov Cuomo has spouted so much Anti-Trump hyperbole and propaganda, that my trust in him saying anything reasonable was reduced to nil.

I did not see the media segment of Cuomo. I React to his well defined Democrat party stands and Trump hatred.



You characterize Cuomo in the media segment as being "reason "able" - which is a change IMHO.

I haven't seen any change from Pelosi or Schumer. They would be happy to have an apocalypse destroy America - if it meant the end of the Trump administration.

Perhaps - for what ever reason - Cuomo changed his political stance to more reasonable. For this topic, at least.

In the interest of the Countries' medical health - "public health" - I do hope so.

I'm not naive enough to believe this will happen on any other issue and these lone voices won't be enough to change the likes of Pelosi and Shumer but it was so different to hear reasonable Democrat voices that I thought it had to be reported. When all this settles down and it will, Cuomo and Newsome will be right back accusing Trump of preparing for another Kristallnacht.

[eccieuser9500]

Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

tulip mania

the dot.com bubble

y2k

investing in $40,000 llamas - some of you might recall that back when $40,000 was a lot of money

and the wuhan coronavirus craze

what do these mass hysterias NOT have in common?

answer: the dims and their news media have only driven the last one

SO . . . $40K isn't a lot of money anymore?

Originally Posted by HedonistForever

I'll have to disagree with you on that. From my research and of course I could be wrong, is that Corona is more virulent than influenza A.


So let's start with the definition of virulent.

Definition of virulent



1a: marked by a rapid, severe, and destructive coursea virulent infection
b: able to overcome bodily defensive mechanisms : markedly pathogenicvirulent bacteria

https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronav...er-11583856879

People have more protection from the flu because there is a vaccine and they are exposed to flu viruses every year.
That speaks to b quite clearly

There is no vaccine yet to protect people against Covid-19, the disease caused by the new virus.

“I think what we’re seeing with Covid-19 is what influenza would look like without a vaccine,” said Neil Fishman, who is chief medical officer at the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania and an infectious-disease specialist.

Scientists haven’t yet established exactly how deadly or transmissible the new virus is. But so far the new coronavirus appears to be deadlier than the seasonal flu, which kills thousands of Americans every season.

Calculations of the mortality rate for Covid-19 have ranged between 2% and 3.4% since the virus was identified in China in January, according to World Health Organization data. Those percentages are derived by dividing the number of confirmed deaths globally into the number of confirmed cases.
By contrast, the seasonal flu has a death rate of approximately 0.1%.

I could post many other sites but this seems to be the consensus. It isn't (yet ) known that Corona will be more deadly, it may not but we do know that we have a vaccine for influenza, none exist yet for corona and we know that over the years our bodies have adapted to influenza which it can be intellectually argued is a reason why it is less deadly AT THIS TIME.


I'm trying to present the facts as I understand them but of course, I could be wrong.


And yes, all these cancellations are absurd. Right now if you are over a certain age, I think it is down to 60 in some cases, you can not board a cruise ship without proving you have tested negative for Corona. So instead of say shutting down the NBA season as example, suggest/ require that all persons over 60, 65, 70, which ever works best, get tested first ( or just sit this out for a few weeks or months ) since these are the most vulnerable. Why cancel an event when 80% of a mixed age group crowd isn't susceptible to deadly consequences and 99% of a younger crowd. The crowd could theoretically be limited to those with less vulnerability?


Going back to Governor Cuomo, he was making the case I have been making. Young people are not as susceptible to this and keeping them out of school a more or less controlled environment, right now, may be a step to far. Let's concentrate on the elderly if we want to get a handle on this new virus that we have no antibodies for and no vaccine which I believe common sense tells us is more virulent than influenza A not because the virus itself is more deadly but having never been exposed to it before, makes it more deadly for reasons just discussed.


I think destroying trillions of dollars of wealth because of panic and hysteria will be seen as a very stupid reaction to this virus.


Think about this. Millions of people will have been exposed to this new virus this year. Millions more will likely be exposed in the coming years and sooner or later like influenza, the majority of people will experience the symptoms with out dying. That too seems to be the scientific consensus.

I really do like your writing. The text in blue, right? Opinions, in my own humble one, are hypothesizing based on facts. Reports, on the other hand, are just facts. As clinical, sterile, and sanitized as possible.

Journalism today has become a cloudy, murky and click-driven industry. Any self-respecting citizen should be able to discern the difference between an opinion and a report. I had "decent" public school teachers. When I had to write a book report, my teachers called me out, as is the modern term, when I inserted words like stupid and boring.

I am a partisan. No doubt. And I hold my feeling true. I'm also enigmatic. That fact that TWK, oeb, Lev17 and yourself (along with others) react to my posts is telling. It tells me you "listen". And that is all that a shock jock cares for. Audience participation. Hence, the click-bait nation we live in today.

I remember the days of in-your-face news. I'm sure you do, and hopefully long for, too. In the name of "progress" our society has become more "informed". Not to get into a scathing social media rant, BUT . . . . Now you're a source of news simply because you have a ubiquitous smart phone.

This leads me to your ill-fated previous thread here. The one about the "21 words". Yes! The information in it was correct. Yes! I dismissed the reliability of the information. C'mon man! Consider the source.


The Trump Presidency Is Over


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...y-over/607969/

“Mr. Trump has no desire to acquaint himself with most issues, let alone master them” is how I put it four years ago. “No major presidential candidate has ever been quite as disdainful of knowledge, as indifferent to facts, as untroubled by his benightedness.” I added this:

Mr. Trump’s virulent combination of ignorance, emotional instability, demagogy, solipsism and vindictiveness would do more than result in a failed presidency; it could very well lead to national catastrophe. The prospect of Donald Trump as commander in chief should send a chill down the spine of every American.

Is it better to be safe than sorry? If course. Overreacting over initial reports is panicking.



P.S.

My definition of a story is something that develops. Like a game within a game. Nothing has happened since. Like your co-partisan patriot TWK assumed, I would dismiss it altogether if indictments were handed down. But no. I wouldn't. I just don't think anything will happen. Think long term. That leaves the door open to swing back through to the other side.












Sorry, long post script.

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by Jacuzzme

Except for his brother, Fredo.

yes, he talked something about going ethnic... what?????

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

tulip mania

the dot.com bubble

y2k

investing in $40,000 llamas - some of you might recall that back when $40,000 was a lot of money

and the wuhan coronavirus craze

what do these mass hysterias NOT have in common?

answer: the dims and their news media have only driven the last one

tulip mania? wow that's going really far back. around 1600's.

[eccieuser9500]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

tulip mania? wow that's going really far back. around 1600's.

It's an ancient allegory.

A Summary and Analysis of ‘Jack and the Beanstalk’


https://interestingliterature.com/20...the-beanstalk/

‘The History of Jack and the Bean-Stalk’, although the elements we most associate with the story were given the definitive treatment in an 1890 version. All this would suggest that the tale of Jack and the beanstalk is relatively recent, especially when so many other classic fairy tales have medieval prototypes in world literature. But in fact, researchers at the universities in Durham and Lisbon believe that the essential story of ‘Jack and the Beanstalk’ dates back over 5,000 years, or two whole millennia before Homer.

As we implied above, there is something immoral in the story’s essential message: steal from others to get yourself out of poverty, and you will triumph. The killing of the giant is self-defence, admittedly, but we can see why Victorians might have been a little queasy around the central thrust of the story. So in some versions of the tale, such as the one the Opies include in The Classic Fairy Tales, a back-story is included, which informs us that the giant actually stole his riches from Jack’s father, whom he killed out of jealousy and greed. The giant’s wealth, then, is ill-gotten, and Jack, in stealing from him, is in fact only reclaiming what is rightfully his.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by HedonistForever

Cuomo said that the President and Vice President "acted swiftly" and he ought to know.

"An yll wynde, that blowth no man to good,....."
John Heywood, 1546

I am no longer tasked with a commute to work!

The 21st Century has arrived!

[gnadfly]

Where are all the bodies? Still holding at 41 CV deaths according the CDC website: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ses-in-us.html

CDC says we've had 144 cases of pediatric mortality this flu season. Can't find the total mortality of flu this year but reading 40-50K per season.

I am with the people who say the current CV test is unreliable. So far Forest, his wife, Treadeau's wife,and the two NBA players are doing fine. The people in Houston who bought it back from their cruise are expected to recover.

More DemPanic. I blame Putin.

[gnadfly]

While everyone is in a panic about the coronavirus (officially renamed COVID-19 by the World Health Organization), there's an even deadlier virus many people are forgetting about: the flu.

Flu season is hitting its stride right now in the US. So far, the CDC has estimated (based on weekly influenza surveillance data) that at least 12,000 people have died from influenza between Oct. 1, 2019 through Feb. 1, 2020, and the number of deaths may be as high as 30,000.

The CDC also estimates that up to 31 million Americans have caught the flu this season, with 210,000 to 370,000 flu sufferers hospitalized because of the virus.

The official toll of the 2019-2020 flu season won't be known for months. The season itself could last until May, and only preliminary estimates will be available until data is finalized.

“The current flu season has been difficult but it has not reached epidemic threshold,” infectious disease expert Amesh A. Adalja, MD, senior scholar at the John's Hopkins Center for Health Security in Baltimore, tells Health. “In the next couple of weeks, when more data is available, it will become clear just how severe the season was given that we had an initial dominance of influenza B and now dominance of influenza A H1N1.”

When a second strain begins to dominate the flu season, this can cause the season to last longer, explains Dr. Adalja.


So how do these numbers compare to flu deaths in previous years? So far, it looks like the 2019-2020 death toll won’t be as high as it was in the 2017-2018 season, when 61,000 deaths were linked to the virus. However, it could equal or surpass the 2018-2019 season's 34,200 flu-related deaths.

Overall, the CDC estimates that 12,000 and 61,000 deaths annually since 2010 can be blamed on the flu. Globally, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that the flu kills 290,000 to 650,000 people per year.

----------------------------------------

Strange but I can't recall shutting down baseball, basketball, hockey, the school districts,etc for the flu.

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by gnadfly

Strange but I can't recall shutting down baseball, basketball, hockey, the school districts,etc for the flu.

the masters, the masters, that's the shame, the pity, the disgrace and the sin of it all

[oeb11]

Originally Posted by HedonistForever

I'll have to disagree with you on that. From my research and of course I could be wrong, is that Corona is more virulent than influenza A.


So let's start with the definition of virulent.

Definition of virulent



1a: marked by a rapid, severe, and destructive coursea virulent infection
b: able to overcome bodily defensive mechanisms : markedly pathogenicvirulent bacteria

https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronav...er-11583856879

People have more protection from the flu because there is a vaccine and they are exposed to flu viruses every year.
That speaks to b quite clearly

There is no vaccine yet to protect people against Covid-19, the disease caused by the new virus.

“I think what we’re seeing with Covid-19 is what influenza would look like without a vaccine,” said Neil Fishman, who is chief medical officer at the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania and an infectious-disease specialist.

Scientists haven’t yet established exactly how deadly or transmissible the new virus is. But so far the new coronavirus appears to be deadlier than the seasonal flu, which kills thousands of Americans every season.

Calculations of the mortality rate for Covid-19 have ranged between 2% and 3.4% since the virus was identified in China in January, according to World Health Organization data. Those percentages are derived by dividing the number of confirmed deaths globally into the number of confirmed cases.
By contrast, the seasonal flu has a death rate of approximately 0.1%.

I could post many other sites but this seems to be the consensus. It isn't (yet ) known that Corona will be more deadly, it may not but we do know that we have a vaccine for influenza, none exist yet for corona and we know that over the years our bodies have adapted to influenza which it can be intellectually argued is a reason why it is less deadly AT THIS TIME.


I'm trying to present the facts as I understand them but of course, I could be wrong.


And yes, all these cancellations are absurd. Right now if you are over a certain age, I think it is down to 60 in some cases, you can not board a cruise ship without proving you have tested negative for Corona. So instead of say shutting down the NBA season as example, suggest/ require that all persons over 60, 65, 70, which ever works best, get tested first ( or just sit this out for a few weeks or months ) since these are the most vulnerable. Why cancel an event when 80% of a mixed age group crowd isn't susceptible to deadly consequences and 99% of a younger crowd. The crowd could theoretically be limited to those with less vulnerability?


Going back to Governor Cuomo, he was making the case I have been making. Young people are not as susceptible to this and keeping them out of school a more or less controlled environment, right now, may be a step to far. Let's concentrate on the elderly if we want to get a handle on this new virus that we have no antibodies for and no vaccine which I believe common sense tells us is more virulent than influenza A not because the virus itself is more deadly but having never been exposed to it before, makes it more deadly for reasons just discussed.


I think destroying trillions of dollars of wealth because of panic and hysteria will be seen as a very stupid reaction to this virus.


Think about this. Millions of people will have been exposed to this new virus this year. Millions more will likely be exposed in the coming years and sooner or later like influenza, the majority of people will experience the symptoms with out dying. That too seems to be the scientific consensus.

HF-Thanks for your post-WSJ is a reasonable source. I entirely agree destroying wealth in the panic is unreasonable.

I read from medical infectious disease journals - not trying to be a snot about it- we do not know far more than we do know about these strains of coronavirus - which is part of the common cold family. Very difficult to construct a vaccine for a virus that mutates kand changes rapidly.

There are very likely tens to hundreds of thousands of people infected with coronavirus with asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic infections -not teted for - that are an uncounted reservoir of infection and source for infection of others. This cohort skews the morbidity and mortality rates to lower levels. Very likely real mortality rates are lower than the 2-4% estimates based on reported diagnosed infections due to this unreported cohort.

No sense arguing about a number in evolution.
Maintain good hygiene practices is the best advice for now to protect oneself. And wish One had shorted stocks a couple weeks ago.

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by eccieuser9500

SO . . . $40K isn't a lot of money anymore?



I really do like your writing. The text in blue, right? Opinions, in my own humble one, are hypothesizing based on facts. Reports, on the other hand, are just facts. As clinical, sterile, and sanitized as possible.

Journalism today has become a cloudy, murky and click-driven industry. Any self-respecting citizen should be able to discern the difference between an opinion and a report. I had "decent" public school teachers. When I had to write a book report, my teachers called me out, as is the modern term, when I inserted words like stupid and boring.

I am a partisan. No doubt. And I hold my feeling true. I'm also enigmatic. That fact that TWK, oeb, Lev17 and yourself (along with others) react to my posts is telling. It tells me you "listen". And that is all that a shock jock cares for. Audience participation. Hence, the click-bait nation we live in today.

I remember the days of in-your-face news. I'm sure you do, and hopefully long for, too. In the name of "progress" our society has become more "informed". Not to get into a scathing social media rant, BUT . . . . Now you're a source of news simply because you have a ubiquitous smart phone.

This leads me to your ill-fated previous thread here. The one about the "21 words". Yes! The information in it was correct. Yes! I dismissed the reliability of the information. C'mon man! Consider the source.


The Trump Presidency Is Over


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...y-over/607969/




Is it better to be safe than sorry? If course. Overreacting over initial reports is panicking.



P.S.

My definition of a story is something that develops. Like a game within a game. Nothing has happened since. Like your co-partisan patriot TWK assumed, I would dismiss it altogether if indictments were handed down. But no. I wouldn't. I just don't think anything will happen. Think long term. That leaves the door open to swing back through to the other side.

First let me thank you for responding to my question. I thought you had given up on following through on questions which I didn't think was like you. Let me start with your P.S.


The Chief judges 19 page letter was without question, a "development".

Definition of development



1: the act, process, or result of developingthe development of new ideasan interesting development in the case
The judges response to this "ongoing story" that started months ago when the Horowitz report told us that an FBI agent had changed the words in a document used to get a FISA warrant. That was a development in the initial report that possible FISA abuse had occurred.


So here is the development. FISA abuse questioned. Horowitz investigates. Finds and FBI lawyer doctored and e-mail changing the understanding of whether the investigation had a legal predicate. Conclusion "mistakes were made" plenty of them. Were they actual mistakes or premeditated? See how this story is "developing"?


Now comes a brand new Chief judge and his conclusion "seems to be", no, they were not just mistakes but appear to be premeditated. That is the definition of a "bombshell" finding. This goes from mistakes, to criminal activity and multiple people within the FBI and DOJ are now barred from participating in any further input into a FISA warrant. I think that may be a president never before seen in the FBI. Now if this doesn't meet the definition of a developing story, then nothing will.



And yes, I use blue to distinguish my comments from what might be somebody else's words.

Thinking "nothing will happen" is separate from acknowledging that a story is developing. That aspect simply can not be rationally denied. Did anything happen to Trump as a result of the Mueller report? Was it then not a "developing story" because "nothing happened"? Surely you can see this but for what ever reason, you just can't bring yourself to admit what everybody can see.

Thank you for the compliment that you enjoy my writing as grammatically faulty as it may be.
Let me try and deconstruct your opening remarks which I find "problematic".

Opinions are hypothesizing based on facts.

Well, that's what it should be but we all base our opinions on what we hear and see, hopefully from more than one source but how do we know they are facts? You, all of us really, question if something is a fact based on who said it which you did in the beginning of this thread. Solomon said it? Nope, don't believe it without even doing any research to see if it was true and then when it is proven to be true, you dismiss it as not being anything worth considering.

Reports, on the other hand, are just facts.
Not necessarily. There are all kinds of reports that are not factual and the FISA abuse story lays this out in spades. I would offer that some "reports" are full of "hypothesized" conclusions. I think it is why the FISA requirement that everything in the application must be verified, is there, for that very reason. They are acknowledging that some reports do include "hypotheses" and that will not be allowed in reports submitted to the FISA court while in other jurisdictions, I'm sure " we think there are drugs in that apartment because the guy that just went in is a known drug dealer", will be enough for a warrant.

As clinical, sterile, and sanitized as possible.

Didn't happen in this FISA abuse case which makes it a "story" and a developing one at that even though it hasn't reached it's conclusion, another definition of developing.

Any self-respecting citizen should be able to discern the difference between an opinion and a report.
Not if a corrupt person has prepared the report. Again, let's see how many "self-repecting citizens looked at the FBI lawyers report and will now make the case in their own self defense, that they "assumed" it was clinical, sterile and as sanitized as possible but it wasn't. It was assumed that the FBI lawyer would not submit an opinion and he presented his conclusion as not his opinion but a fact based on what he was told but he lied and changed the wording of what he was told for a corrupt purpose or so the FISA judge says he has concluded. His report was not a fact but a lie.

This leads me to your ill-fated previous thread here. The one about the "21 words". Yes! The information in it was correct. Yes! I dismissed the reliability of the information. C'mon man! Consider the source.



"Ill fated"?



And this I find troubling. You have just admitted that you dismissed information because of the source and you want me to acknowledge that this is a proper thing to do when you have just been proven wrong to do so? And instead of saying "in the future I will research what has been said regardless of who said it, to see if it is factual", you try to justify your mistake. Don't give me this "C'mon man consider the source". While I may be skeptical of a source, the very first thing I do, is see if I can verify from other sources if what was said is true. All you had to do was find that report, which BTW was right there in my post ( not to rub it in ) but you didn't. You let "the source" be the end of your consideration and that should never be the case for any self respecting citizen.

[HoeHummer]

Dear Trumpholians,

Please go to the nearest mall and lick the escalators railings.

You’d do it for Randolph Scott!!!

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by oeb11

No sense arguing about a number in evolution.

Exactly.

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by eccieuser9500

The Trump Presidency Is Over


Overreacting over initial reports is panicking.

C'mon man! Now that's funny right there.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by gnadfly

Where are all the bodies? Still holding at 41 CV deaths according the CDC website: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ses-in-us.html

CDC says ..... the total mortality of flu this year ....

CDC has the numbers. So far Corona is pissing in a hurricane.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden...-estimates.htm

22,000 – 55,000
flu deaths

In the U.S.......affected persons by the flu.......

36,000,000 – 51,000,000
flu illnesses

Someone saying we can't handle the "load" with existing available hospital beds?

370,000 – 670,000
flu hospitalizations

Someone is trying to make a case for grant money!!! Or an interest free loan from the taxpayers.