The US Missile Defense System Is Only 50% Accurate Against North Korea

[Munchmasterman]

Originally Posted by LexusLover

So you're buttstupid?
And there it is folks.
Lexus liar's version of "I know you are but what am I?".
What you are seeing is a total fucking loser discovering there is no rock bottom. The little twerp is sinking in the ooze.
He's just a more stupid version of corpy, without the resolve to see things until no one but him gives a shit.
He can always pretend he was right.

I see lexusliar spent his first-round draft choice on a real winner. Just like picking M. Flynn. Indefinitely suspended for a lack of morals and lying under oath.
Welcome to the douche-bag's team. You won't win much but it's definitely an easier team to be on.


And all this time you led everyone to believe you are buttsmart!

Still nothing of substance, I see.

Point of Order: I'm not the one whining about what a military "might" NK is and how NK is going to kick our ass. Again: Nice try at diverting attention away from your ignoramous butt buddies.

You're finally right.
You're still nothing of substance.

[Munchmasterman]

The little bitch ran off because we were mean to her.

She sure is bitter. It's not our fault his 3 brothers had his prom date pull a train.....that wouldn't stop at his staion.
He still has the condom he shot his load in before he could get his pecker out of his pants. He pressed it in the pages of his yearbook.

Originally Posted by LexusLover

And now Munchie has WTF "backing him up" with all of WTF's vast military preparedness expertise ....

... the smartest two little wimps on the internet ... just ask them!

What fucking jokes!

Munchie and WTF, two LIARS struggling to appear relevant!

[dilbert firestorm]

https://www.redstate.com/streiff/201...a-level-seoul/

Fallacy #1. Seoul is within easy artillery range of North Korea.
This is simply not true. Thirty miles is extreme range for tube or rocket artillery. The entire North Korean Army has, at a high end estimate, a max of 500 artillery systems and 200 rocket systems that can range Seoul’s northern suburbs and Seoul from what is now North Korea. Only one-third of Seoul can be hit by any type of tube artillery. The drawing of a 44-mile circle and implying that there are hundreds of artillery pieces which can range as far as the heaviest North Korean rocket systems is just dishonest in the extreme.

Fallacy #2. All of these long range pieces are within range of Seoul.
Dispersion between artillery systems is going to be at least 50 meters. Math alone tells you once you start dispersing that you quickly run out of usable real estate. Why disperse? The blast radius for a 500-lb bomb (the B-2 carries 80 of these) is 50 meters. That means it will kill 50% of everyone within that zone. Even troops in bunkers will be killed or injured by the combination of overpressure and vacuum rupturing hollow organs. If you drop 1000-lb bombs, increasingly the weapon of choice, the 50% lethality radius exceeds 200 meters. If you want your artillery to survive more than the first air strike you will want them dispersed and in hardened positions. While the 44 mile radius on the map is cute, many of these weapons will be out of range of Seoul because clustering dozens of pieces up on the DMZ within easy range of ROK infantry and armor doesn’t make sense.

Fallacy #3. North Korea will use all of its artillery to target Seoul.
This is probably the crux of the issue. Why would the North Koreans concentrate all of their artillery close to the border to bombard Seoul. If they level Seoul it doesn’t mean they win the war. And if the guns are aimed at Seoul they can’t aim at Allied troops. Likewise it will use its missiles to hit Osan and Pusan, the airfield and seaport, respectively, through which US forces will flow. If a war breaks out, North Korea will have to use its artillery in the conventional role of providing support to the infantry and armor units it sends south. You have to achieve a 3:1 power (troops, equipment, firepower) ratio to have a 50-50 chance of taking a defended position. You need at least a 5:1 ratio if you want to achieve a breakthrough attack. The only way the North Koreans can achieve that force ratio is to throw 100% of their artillery at the Allied units holding the line closest to the DMZ. They aren’t going to screw around shooting several months of ammunition production at Seoul.

Fallacy #4. North Korean artillery will be able to hit Seoul even if it is in range.
In November 2010, the North Koreans shelled the South Korean island, I say again, island, of Yeonpyeong.

On November 23, the island was hit by two barrages totally 170 rounds of 122-millimeter rockets—and possibly some rounds from nearby 76.2-millimeter coastal artillery units. Republic of Korea (ROK) return fire was limited by an inoperative counter battery radar, which was repaired in time to direct a strike on North Korean rocket launcher units. Two civilians and two ROK Marines were killed in the attacks. Curiously, the rocket battalion should have been able to fire a total of about 288 rockets, but only 170 actually landed near the island. Of those 170 rockets, only 80 landed on the island itself, the rest in surrounding waters.

They were able to hit with 47% of the rockets. Of the hits, about 20% were duds. Most of the rockets that hit the island did not strike actual military or civilian targets. Keep in mind that this was an island that was easily observed from North Korea and is only 7 miles from North Korea. The South Koreans did not begin counter-battery fire until 18 minutes after the attack began and no airstrikes were flown. In short, this is the best performance you are going to get from North Korean artillery.

Once you compound this with the fear and uncertainty of air strikes and hostile artillery firing back, accuracy is going to suffer. Without the ability to spot fall of shot accuracy after the first volley is going to get progressively worse. How, for instance, will a gun know the area it has shelled has been destroyed? Without eyes on the target the result is either overkill, and a waste of ammunition, or ineffective damage.

Fallacy #5. North Korean artillery will shoot thousands of rounds at Seoul.
The North Koreans simply don’t have the ability to store the numbers of rounds it would take to destroy Seoul with the artillery pieces and, once the shooting starts, the only resupply coming forward will be carried by human porters (don’t laugh, the US Army in Korea will use the Korean Service Corps, I know I did). There will be no live vehicles moving on the roads in North Korea after the first few hours. The artillery that is positioned to target Seoul are in positions known as Hardened Artillery Site (HARTS). For HARTS to be effective, the artillery piece has to retreat after each firing to reload and then be run out again. As an aside, these positions are much more night lights and comfort blankets for the gun crews than they are militarily significant. During the first Gulf War we saw video of Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) going down the ventilator shafts of bunkers. The B-2 can carry 80 500-lb JDAM and each is independently targeted.

If you recall, again during the Gulf War, the bombing of the Amiriyah bomb shelter that killed over 400 civilians. This shelter was thought to be impervious to bombs–hence the name ‘bomb shelter’–but it wasn’t:

At 4:30 a.m. on the morning of 13 February, two F-117 stealth fighter/bombers each dropped a 2,000 pound GBU-27 laser-guided bomb on the shelter. The first cut through ten feet of reinforced concrete before a time-delayed fuse exploded. Minutes later the second bomb followed the path cut by the first bomb.[4] People staying in the upper level were incinerated by heat, while boiling water from the shelter’s water tank was responsible for the rest of the fatalities.[6]

The artillery that we have mapped, which is most of it, will be gone within a very short period of time. The rest will die after the first round breaks mask and is detected by counterbattery radar. This is a JDAM refresher for the doubters. Check the attack on the aircraft revetment at 2:00.

There is simply no way to build a shelter than can defeat a 500- to 1000-lb–or even larger–weapon dropping on the weakest points: the door or the ventilator. These guns will fire a handful of rounds each, not hundreds or thousands, before they are silenced.

Fallacy #6. Neither the US nor ROK Air Force or artillery will engage North Korean artillery.
This is the fallacy that undercuts the scenario completely. While only a small number of North Korean guns and rocket launchers can reach Seoul, every gun and rocket system owned by the US and ROK can reach the North Korean artillery. Why is this? Because all North Korean guns aimed a Seoul have to be very close to the DMZ. South Korean and American guns and rocket launchers will also be close to the DMZ bringing 100% of North Korean artillery within range. These systems are aimed with drones and radar and are much more accurate than the North Korean systems and there are 155mm artillery rounds with terminal guidance.

“Defending Seoul against such a threat is the top priority for the alliance,” said Chun In-bum, a retired lieutenant general in the South Korean army who served as commander of South Korea’s Special Warfare Command.

“The U.S. and South Korean response would be immediate. We have assets along the DMZ dedicated for doing this job and counter-battery units trained to conduct these missions,” Chun said.

Fallacy #7. The ROK army won’t cross the border to clear out North Korean artillery.
If the ROK army decides to cross the DMZ in that area to destroy the artillery there, there is nothing the North Koreans have that can stop them.

Fallacy #8. Seoul will suffer massive civilian casualties.
The suburbs of Seoul that are within artillery range from the DMZ are the least populated. It is estimated that Seoul has the ability to shelter 20 million, that’s right, 20 million people in bomb shelters. The subway system in Seoul is designed to serve as a bomb shelter. Don’t think I’m saying civilians won’t pay a price, they will. There is no way to evacuate Seoul.

All the roads south of the capital are going to be clogged with ROK Army units heading north. But the combination of sheltering in place in structurally safe bomb shelters, US and ROK attacks on artillery, and the limited number of systems that can reach them means you probably aren’t talking the tens of thousands of casualties that have been predicted.

[Munchmasterman]

I haven't said Seoul would be destroyed. I've repeatedly said massive casualties. The estimates are 20000 to 1,000,000
Numerous people claim we'll just waltz in and wipe the NKs out. They ignore the weeks of softening up we did on Iraqi defenses to pull off the massive rollback we did to them. They forget Viet Nam had nowhere near the weapons the NKs have. The same people see no reason to protect ourselves from taking a large number of casualties ourselves. Because it's not their asses on the line.
Only a person who has never been in the service or risked his own ass would mistake caution and preparation as being afraid to engage the enemy.
This includes you, lexusliar.

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

https://www.redstate.com/streiff/201...a-level-seoul/

Fallacy #1. Seoul is within easy artillery range of North Korea.
This is simply not true. Thirty miles is extreme range for tube or rocket artillery. The entire North Korean Army has, at a high end estimate, a max of 500 artillery systems and 200 rocket systems that can range Seoul’s northern suburbs and Seoul from what is now North Korea. Only one-third of Seoul can be hit by any type of tube artillery. The drawing of a 44-mile circle and implying that there are hundreds of artillery pieces which can range as far as the heaviest North Korean rocket systems is just dishonest in the extreme.

Fallacy #2. All of these long range pieces are within range of Seoul.
Dispersion between artillery systems is going to be at least 50 meters. Math alone tells you once you start dispersing that you quickly run out of usable real estate. Why disperse? The blast radius for a 500-lb bomb (the B-2 carries 80 of these) is 50 meters. That means it will kill 50% of everyone within that zone. Even troops in bunkers will be killed or injured by the combination of overpressure and vacuum rupturing hollow organs. If you drop 1000-lb bombs, increasingly the weapon of choice, the 50% lethality radius exceeds 200 meters. If you want your artillery to survive more than the first air strike you will want them dispersed and in hardened positions. While the 44 mile radius on the map is cute, many of these weapons will be out of range of Seoul because clustering dozens of pieces up on the DMZ within easy range of ROK infantry and armor doesn’t make sense.

Fallacy #3. North Korea will use all of its artillery to target Seoul.
This is probably the crux of the issue. Why would the North Koreans concentrate all of their artillery close to the border to bombard Seoul. If they level Seoul it doesn’t mean they win the war. And if the guns are aimed at Seoul they can’t aim at Allied troops. Likewise it will use its missiles to hit Osan and Pusan, the airfield and seaport, respectively, through which US forces will flow. If a war breaks out, North Korea will have to use its artillery in the conventional role of providing support to the infantry and armor units it sends south. You have to achieve a 3:1 power (troops, equipment, firepower) ratio to have a 50-50 chance of taking a defended position. You need at least a 5:1 ratio if you want to achieve a breakthrough attack. The only way the North Koreans can achieve that force ratio is to throw 100% of their artillery at the Allied units holding the line closest to the DMZ. They aren’t going to screw around shooting several months of ammunition production at Seoul.

Fallacy #4. North Korean artillery will be able to hit Seoul even if it is in range.
In November 2010, the North Koreans shelled the South Korean island, I say again, island, of Yeonpyeong.

On November 23, the island was hit by two barrages totally 170 rounds of 122-millimeter rockets—and possibly some rounds from nearby 76.2-millimeter coastal artillery units. Republic of Korea (ROK) return fire was limited by an inoperative counter battery radar, which was repaired in time to direct a strike on North Korean rocket launcher units. Two civilians and two ROK Marines were killed in the attacks. Curiously, the rocket battalion should have been able to fire a total of about 288 rockets, but only 170 actually landed near the island. Of those 170 rockets, only 80 landed on the island itself, the rest in surrounding waters.

They were able to hit with 47% of the rockets. Of the hits, about 20% were duds. Most of the rockets that hit the island did not strike actual military or civilian targets. Keep in mind that this was an island that was easily observed from North Korea and is only 7 miles from North Korea. The South Koreans did not begin counter-battery fire until 18 minutes after the attack began and no airstrikes were flown. In short, this is the best performance you are going to get from North Korean artillery.

Once you compound this with the fear and uncertainty of air strikes and hostile artillery firing back, accuracy is going to suffer. Without the ability to spot fall of shot accuracy after the first volley is going to get progressively worse. How, for instance, will a gun know the area it has shelled has been destroyed? Without eyes on the target the result is either overkill, and a waste of ammunition, or ineffective damage.

Fallacy #5. North Korean artillery will shoot thousands of rounds at Seoul.
The North Koreans simply don’t have the ability to store the numbers of rounds it would take to destroy Seoul with the artillery pieces and, once the shooting starts, the only resupply coming forward will be carried by human porters (don’t laugh, the US Army in Korea will use the Korean Service Corps, I know I did). There will be no live vehicles moving on the roads in North Korea after the first few hours. The artillery that is positioned to target Seoul are in positions known as Hardened Artillery Site (HARTS). For HARTS to be effective, the artillery piece has to retreat after each firing to reload and then be run out again. As an aside, these positions are much more night lights and comfort blankets for the gun crews than they are militarily significant. During the first Gulf War we saw video of Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) going down the ventilator shafts of bunkers. The B-2 can carry 80 500-lb JDAM and each is independently targeted.

If you recall, again during the Gulf War, the bombing of the Amiriyah bomb shelter that killed over 400 civilians. This shelter was thought to be impervious to bombs–hence the name ‘bomb shelter’–but it wasn’t:

At 4:30 a.m. on the morning of 13 February, two F-117 stealth fighter/bombers each dropped a 2,000 pound GBU-27 laser-guided bomb on the shelter. The first cut through ten feet of reinforced concrete before a time-delayed fuse exploded. Minutes later the second bomb followed the path cut by the first bomb.[4] People staying in the upper level were incinerated by heat, while boiling water from the shelter’s water tank was responsible for the rest of the fatalities.[6]

The artillery that we have mapped, which is most of it, will be gone within a very short period of time. The rest will die after the first round breaks mask and is detected by counterbattery radar. This is a JDAM refresher for the doubters. Check the attack on the aircraft revetment at 2:00.

There is simply no way to build a shelter than can defeat a 500- to 1000-lb–or even larger–weapon dropping on the weakest points: the door or the ventilator. These guns will fire a handful of rounds each, not hundreds or thousands, before they are silenced.

Fallacy #6. Neither the US nor ROK Air Force or artillery will engage North Korean artillery.
This is the fallacy that undercuts the scenario completely. While only a small number of North Korean guns and rocket launchers can reach Seoul, every gun and rocket system owned by the US and ROK can reach the North Korean artillery. Why is this? Because all North Korean guns aimed a Seoul have to be very close to the DMZ. South Korean and American guns and rocket launchers will also be close to the DMZ bringing 100% of North Korean artillery within range. These systems are aimed with drones and radar and are much more accurate than the North Korean systems and there are 155mm artillery rounds with terminal guidance.

“Defending Seoul against such a threat is the top priority for the alliance,” said Chun In-bum, a retired lieutenant general in the South Korean army who served as commander of South Korea’s Special Warfare Command.

“The U.S. and South Korean response would be immediate. We have assets along the DMZ dedicated for doing this job and counter-battery units trained to conduct these missions,” Chun said.

Fallacy #7. The ROK army won’t cross the border to clear out North Korean artillery.
If the ROK army decides to cross the DMZ in that area to destroy the artillery there, there is nothing the North Koreans have that can stop them.

Fallacy #8. Seoul will suffer massive civilian casualties.
The suburbs of Seoul that are within artillery range from the DMZ are the least populated. It is estimated that Seoul has the ability to shelter 20 million, that’s right, 20 million people in bomb shelters. The subway system in Seoul is designed to serve as a bomb shelter. Don’t think I’m saying civilians won’t pay a price, they will. There is no way to evacuate Seoul.

All the roads south of the capital are going to be clogged with ROK Army units heading north. But the combination of sheltering in place in structurally safe bomb shelters, US and ROK attacks on artillery, and the limited number of systems that can reach them means you probably aren’t talking the tens of thousands of casualties that have been predicted.

[dilbert firestorm]

source: wikipedia

NOK artillery:

SU100 - 100mm - range 9 miles
M1992 - 120mm - range 7 miles
M1938 - 122mm - range 7 miles
M1991 - 122mm - range 7 miles
M1975 - 130mm - range 25 miles
M1992 - 130mm - range 25 miles
M1974 - 152mm - range 15 miles
M1985 - 152mm - range 15 miles
M1978 - 170mm - range 35 miles

NOK MLRS:
T63 --- 107mm - range 5 miles - 4,000
BM11 -- 122mm - range 12 miles (BM21)
M1985 - 122mm - range 12 miles (BM21)
M1993 - 122mm - range 12 miles (BM21)
RM70 -- 122mm - range 12 miles (BM21)
BMD20 - 200mm - range 25 miles - 200
BMD4 -- 240mm - range 35 miles (19 - 43 miles)- 500
M1991 - 240mm - range 35 miles (19 - 43 miles)- 200
KN09 -- 300mm - range 120 miles

[Munchmasterman]

So what's your point? Only 50,000 to 200,000 shells will hit Seoul over the course of a week?

"The North Koreans have produced two different 240mm rocket launchers, the 12 round M-1985 and 22 round M-1991. The M-1985 rocket pack is easily identified as it has 2 rows of 6 tubes and is mounted on a cab behind engine chassis. The M-1991 is mounted on a cab over engine chassis. Both launch packs could be adapted to any suitable heavy cross-country truck.
In the fall of 1993, in a conversation with the Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Army (Research and Technology), the Commander-in-Chief, Combined Forces Command (CINC CFC) stated that the North Korean 240mm Multiple Rocket Launchers (MRLs) posed a significant psychological and political threat to South Korea and the CFC. This weapon poses a significant threat, in that a very large number of 240mm MRLs are poised north of the demilitarized zone (DMZ) and are targeted toward South Korean urban areas and military targets.
According to some reports, the DPRK has about 200 of these launchers in service. North Korea continues to improve its military. Highlighting these enhancements is an ambitious program to improve ground forces capabilities. A key component of this initiative involves the deployment of large numbers of long-range 240mm multiple rocket launcher systems and 170mm self-propelled guns to hardened sites located near the Demilitarized Zone.

According to one report, a South Korean security analyst suggested that DPRK artillery pieces of calibers 170mm and 240mm "could fire 10,000 rounds per minute to Seoul and its environs." North Korea has about 500 long-range artillery tubes within range of Seoul, and the total rate of fire of these artillery pieces would be between 2,000 and 4,000 rounds per minute. The DPRK's two hundred 240mm MRLs fire either 12 or 22 rounds, providing a maximum single salvo of no more than 4,400 rounds.
These launchers can fire a first strike of many thousands of missiles and return in a few minutes to protected caves or to alternate firing positions. The MRLs move out from underground facilities (UGFs), fire from preplanned firing positions, and return to the UGFs. Examination of the available data on the UGF sites suggests that a number of possible "exit and return" methods for the MRLs may be possible. In this case, the launchers move directly from the firing points to the UGFs. This procedure makes it difficult to target the launchers, because once they fire it only takes 75 seconds to return to their UGFs. The MRLs can fire their complete set of rockets in 44 seconds. Data from the Joint Precision Strike Demonstration Project Office indicates that the crew then needs two minutes to lower the launcher, raise the stabilizing pads, and quickly return to the UGF. This gives a total exposure time of 164 seconds. However, it is possible that the MRLs could displace faster than the JSPD case or that they might take longer. [SOURCE]"

https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...m-1985-mrl.htm


"The M-1978 (KOKSAN) 170mm self propelled (SP) gun, of North Korean design and manufacture, is probably mounted on a T-54 chasis, a Chinese Type 59 hull or a T62 Chassis [most soruces tend towards the Type 59 tank chassis, the CHICOM derivative of the T-54]. The 170mm gun has no superstructure, and it has 2 large spades at the rear. The 170mm (~6.69") gun itself is a previously unknown type, possibly Russian coastal-defence or ex-naval weapon. The M-1978 Koksan gun was first noted publicly in a parade in 1985. The Koksan is named after the city in North Korea where it was first seen by the West in 1978. The M-1978 version carried no on-board ammunition supply.The M1989 KOKSAN is a later version or modified M1978 which carries 12 rounds on-board ammunition supply. North Korea used them in batteries of 36 vehicles & supplied them to Iran when missiles became available as replacements.

During the Iran-Iraq War, key oil facilities of both nations were within artillery range of each other's armies. By June 1982, the Iraqis had been driven completely out of Iran. From that point on, Iraq spent most of the war on the defensive. In 1986 and the beginning of 1987, Iran launched new offensives, the last reaching the outskirts of Basra before again bogging down. Meanwhile, Iraq initiated a new tanker war in the Gulf, prompting Iran to target neutral shipping. Kuwait provided billions of dollars in loans and grants to support Iraq, and found itself in the middle of the combatants.
Iran acquired a number of M1978 Koksan guns from North Korea in 1987. "At that time, it was the longest-range field gun made anywhere in the world, capable of firing a rocket-assisted projectile to a range of almost 60 kilometers. It had been used by the Iranians to conduct harassment fire from the Al-Faw Peninsula into Kuwait's northeastern oil fields." [Ally to Adversary, page 27] With the Iran/Iraq War raging just to the north, fighting spilled over into Kuwait, and the steady pounding from the artillery barrages just to north shook the walls in Kuwait City.

Since 1993, the North has reinforced its artillery capability in the forward area. As of 1998 the South Korean military estimated that the DPRK had finished deploying 170mm self-propelled artillery with their range of over 50km and 240mm MRLS in the central and western areas, and was in the process of increasing deployment of these two weapons systems in the eastern area.

North Korea continues to improve its military. Highlighting these enhancements is an ambitious program to improve ground forces capabilities. A key component of this initiative involves the deployment of large numbers of long-range 240mm multiple rocket launcher systems and 170mm self-propelled guns to hardened sites located near the Demilitarized Zone. With the exception of the 170mm M-1978 Koksan gun, a new turreted self-propelled gun observed in a 1992 parade, and perhaps a few other systems, most artillery was developed from older Soviet and Chinese designs.

The M1989 Koksan was a further development of the M1978 Koksan. It carries the same 170mm Soviet Costal Gun mounted on a new chassis which can carry 12 on-board rounds. Both M1989 and M1978 are located over the DMZ these vehicles were designed to hit Seoul from the DMZ. The M1989 was introduced in 1983 and presented a lengthened chassis with a front cabin reminiscent of the Soviet 2S7 Pion.

According to one report, a South Korean security analyst suggested that DPRK artillery pieces of calibers 170mm and 240mm "could fire 10,000 rounds per minute to Seoul and its environs." The number of Koksan guns is not publicly reported, but it is reliably reported that North Korea has about 500 long-range artillery tubes within range of Seoul, double the levels of a the mid-1990s. Large caliber self propelled artillery pieces typically have a sustained rate of fire of between four and eight rounds per minute. This suggests a total rate of fire of artillery alone of between 2,000 and 4,000 rounds per minute. The DPRK's two hundred 240mm MRLs fire either 12 or 22 rounds, providing a maximum single salvo of no more than 4,400 rounds.

North Korea is establishing a host of antitank defensive positions on the eastern and western fronts of the Demilitarized Zone (DMZ) that bisects the two Koreas. The North Korean army has been building antitank defensive positions north of the Military Demarcation Line (MDL) in Kangwon Province since March 2001, and in early 2002 such positions were going up along the western front as well. It is exceptional for the North to build defensive facilities as its strategy has always centered on an offensive posture. The North has demanded that South Korea abolish its defensive concrete walls, designed to deter advancing North Korean tanks, south of the MDL. By January 2002 fifty more positions had reportedly been spotted on flat land and roads, which ensure that tanks and other vehicles can be conveniently maneuvered. The positions are reportedly five meter-high concrete structures with holes at the front, left and right for antitank guns. The structures are camouflaged by earth and sand after completion.
Given North Korea's reliance on artillery as the foundation of their combat power and the size of these positions, they are likely designed for self-propelled artillery pieces such as north Korea's Koksan Gun. The height of the positions is much more then is required to provide protection for either tanks or anti-tank guns. Tanks are usually employed "hull down" in which only the turret is exposed and anti-tank guns which have little use against modern armor, normally seek to fire at the flank of armored vehicles at close range in restricted terrain. Anti-tank guns are of little value against the K-1 and M-60s of south Korea's military. North Korea's only realistic chance to take out modern armor is with the use of anti-tank missiles, mines, or close infantry assault.

On 07 March 2016, South Korea and the United States began joint annual war games "Key Resolve" and "Foal Eagle," which Pyongyang claimed were rehearsals for northward invasion. On 26 March 2016 the DPRK threatened to fire long-range artillery at Seoul unless South Korean President Park Geun-hye apologizes and punishes those who planned striking the DPRK leadership. Pyongyang issued the warning in an ultimatum sent to the Park administration by the artillery force of the Korean People's Army(KPA). The ultimatum urged Park to offer "an official apology" to all Korean people for "dare attempts to slander and do harm to the sun of Songun," which refers to the DPRK's top leader, Kim Jong Un.

Korean Central News Agency reported that "The recent simultaneous firings conducted by the long-range artillery force of the Korean People's Army, rocking the earth and sky, turned the imaginary enemy bases of provocation into a sea of flames in a flash. This was a great eruption of its irrepressible hatred and wrath at the enemy which committed the thrice-cursed act of daring attempt to hurt the dignity of the supreme leadership of the DPRK. It was, at the same time, the beginning of the merciless retaliatory campaign to put the most miserable end to the Park Geun Hye group of south Korea."

Korean Central News Agency reported 27 March 2016 that "Citizens in the DPRK fully support the ultimatum to the south Korean puppet group recently issued by the long-range artillery force of the Korean People's Army. Kim Han Il, manager of the Chollima Steel Complex, told KCNA: "The KPA's ultimatum is as good as the last warning to those provokers by the workers of my complex. The respected Marshal Kim Jong Un is the great sun of Songun Korea representing the destiny and future of the Korean nation. It is a never-to-be-condoned crime to point an accusing finger at the sun.""

https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...m-1978-170.htm

As both of those articles point out, the number of shells that can be fired at Seoul, per minute, is huge.
Is it enough to "destroy" Seoul? Fuck if I know.
It's enough to fuck it up and kill a shitload of people. In Seoul.
There are many guns in range of other SK centers of population.

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

source: wikipedia

NOK artillery:

SU100 - 100mm - range 9 miles
M1992 - 120mm - range 7 miles
M1938 - 122mm - range 7 miles
M1991 - 122mm - range 7 miles
M1975 - 130mm - range 25 miles
M1992 - 130mm - range 25 miles
M1974 - 152mm - range 15 miles
M1985 - 152mm - range 15 miles
M1978 - 170mm - range 35 miles

NOK MLRS:
T63 --- 107mm - range 5 miles - 4,000
BM11 -- 122mm - range 12 miles (BM21)
M1985 - 122mm - range 12 miles (BM21)
M1993 - 122mm - range 12 miles (BM21)
RM70 -- 122mm - range 12 miles (BM21)
BMD20 - 200mm - range 25 miles - 200
BMD4 -- 240mm - range 35 miles (19 - 43 miles)- 500
M1991 - 240mm - range 35 miles (19 - 43 miles)- 200
KN09 -- 300mm - range 120 miles

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by Munchmasterman

So what's your point? Only 50,000 to 200,000 shells will hit Seoul over the course of a week?

A couple of "issues" you've brought up.

#1: I see that you have also personally examined my OMPF, along with some other "historical" Eccie Posters, eg. BigTex, etc.*

*It would occur to me that there are so many people on here who know all about me (just look at their claims along with yours) that they would know EVERYTHING about me .... and consequently they would share all of that personal information with you. I mean: WTF outs people's RW information with the bat of an eye! Then there is AssUp ... knows EVERYTHING about me! And let's not leave out Speedo!!!!! Are they not sharing with you, Munchie?

Or are they just intentionally trying to make you look stupid.

Speedo made himself look stupid WITH his threat to "kick my ass all the way back to Houston" then asking me what "condition" I was in. AssUp did with his Clarksville bullshit (ignoring OFFICIAL CITY OF AUSTIN/STATE MAPS!) You're on the way, Little Boy!

#2: The above statement alone reflects the depth of your ignorance of ALL THINGS MILITARY, particularly today, particularly when "added' to your 15,000 units over a 160 mile DMZ claim to attack Seoul. (Do I detect a "retreat" by you? You moved from "units" to "fortifications" to "a week" of shelling and "rocketing" of Seoul! Where will you retreat and hide now?)

I don't know if it's reflective of your general ignorance of "military planning" and "tactics" the "resources" available for intelligence gathering .... or perhaps you just want to make up shit and ignore reality ..... during these alleged "50 years" of preparation you claim has been on going by NK ... what do you think the SK's and U.S. (U.N.) military and intelligence personnel have been doing? Partying? Do you believe "the Bones" flying around the perimeters of NK were there for "fluff"? For "show" (like you are with your big fat blue letters)?

You have all the answers, right?

#3: Have you ever had a personal one-on-one conversation with a SK intelligence officer who was assigned to the U.S. military? Have you ever had a one-on-one conversation with a U.S. intelligence officer/contractor assigned to the U.S. military or the SK military? How about any intelligence officer/agent/contractor for any military ...

.. BTW: I'm not talking about a desk analyst who pretends. I'm talking about a "field operative" who comes and goes with multiple identities and multiple passports, and who rarely ever leave from the U.S. as a final departure point.

Have a nice day .... and do some more internet research!

[Unique_Carpenter]

Lexus,
Yes, Munchie's version of reality washes away like a sand castle on a beach.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by Unique_Carpenter

Lexus,
Yes, Munchie's version of reality washes away like a sand castle on a beach.

His "version of reality" evaporates with the "reset" button, also.

Video games are entertaining. That's about all. Not a good source!

[Unique_Carpenter]

Originally Posted by LexusLover

....Video games are entertaining....

Muchie is certainly entertaining.
Just give him a comment, and he repeatedly spews his rerun script, just like a vid game starting over.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by Unique_Carpenter

Muchie is certainly entertaining.

Roadkill is not "entertaining," ...

... but it's good to keep a lookout for it so the odor doesn't linger.

I think I've mentioned before ... about him ... and others....

.. he (they) remind me of the first days of "chatrooms" in which I saw someone comment there were more self-proclaimed "Commercial Airline Pilots" in chatrooms than the FAA had issued licenses.

Same with "all things military" ... the media pundits and Munchie, et al, ... are advising the Trump administration on military tactics and assessments ... ?

Is that the same as Vegas Bookies awarding MVP's?

[bamscram]

Looks like someone military told Trump to tone down the BS and stick to the script if he wants anything productive to come from his trip.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by bamscram

Looks like someone military told Trump to tone down the BS and stick to the script if he wants anything productive to come from his trip.

"Looks" can be deceiving. Just "look" at Munchie!

[Munchmasterman]

Originally Posted by LexusLover

A couple of "issues" you've brought up.
You can't do anything in an objective manner. You have a large ego which your record for much of the last year is unsupported. You claim to support the constitution but you act like Democrats are guilty and conservatives are innocent. Many of your posts reflect this. You see no reason to investigate Russia but want to reopen things that have had the bejesus checked into. You can't determine what is bullshit and aren't inclined to check or confirm
Your ego keeps you running your mouth long past when it should have stopped. You look only for info supporting your point. You are beaten regularly because you are and pompous and vain.

None of that means anything to me. I check most things you write. I go on lies, mis-representions, and ommissions. You seldom retract mistakes and if you don't like facts you discard them.

Those are the things I notice and go by.
The people who supplied actual discussions or could engage in them are all gone.

I'm not aware of any "conseratives" who would conceed a point in an ongoing disscussion.
95% of them truly believe they are smarter than all drmocrats

On top of all that, you label everyone liberals.
I don't know exactly what you think of yourselves but I see team IB to some degree. Frequently wrong, unable to admit the mistake and unwilling fix the mistake.



#1: I see that you have also personally examined my OMPF, along with some other "historical" Eccie Posters, eg. BigTex, etc.*
None of this means anything.
It's all in the posts.
*It would occur to me that there are so many people on here who know all about me (just look at their claims along with yours) that they would know EVERYTHING about me .... and consequently they would share all of that personal information with you. I mean: WTF outs people's RW information with the bat of an eye! Then there is AssUp ... knows EVERYTHING about me! And let's not leave out Speedo!!!!! Are they not sharing with you, Munchie?

Or are they just intentionally trying to make you look stupid.

Speedo made himself look stupid WITH his threat to "kick my ass all the way back to Houston" then asking me what "condition" I was in. AssUp did with his Clarksville bullshit (ignoring OFFICIAL CITY OF AUSTIN/STATE MAPS!) You were wrong about boundaries of Clarksville too.You're on the way, Little Boy!

#I'm going back to bed.
You deserve the whole boot up your ass. I'm going to shove this stuff up your ass to the proper depth. Units are found inside of fortifications. The are many more fortifications than units.And finally, for now you stupid cocksucking motherfucker, I said building and digging since the 50S, I didn't say for 50 years you stupid douche-bag.2: The above statement alone reflects the depth of your ignorance of ALL THINGS MILITARY, particularly today, particularly when "added' to your 15,000 units over a 160 mile DMZ claim to attack Seoul. (Do I detect a "retreat" by you? You moved from "units" to "fortifications" to "a week" of shelling and "rocketing" of Seoul! Where will you retreat and hide now?)

I don't know if it's reflective of your general ignorance of "military planning" and "tactics" the "resources" available for intelligence gathering .... or perhaps you just want to make up shit and ignore reality ..... during these alleged "50 years" of preparation you claim has been on going by NK ... what do you think the SK's and U.S. (U.N.) military and intelligence personnel have been doing? Partying? Do you believe "the Bones" flying around the perimeters of NK were there for "fluff"? For "show" (like you are with your big fat blue letters)?

You have all the answers, right?

#3: Have you ever had a personal one-on-one conversation with a SK intelligence officer who was assigned to the U.S. military? Have you ever had a one-on-one conversation with a U.S. intelligence officer/contractor assigned to the U.S. military or the SK military? How about any intelligence officer/agent/contractor for any military ...

.. BTW: I'm not talking about a desk analyst who pretends. I'm talking about a "field operative" who comes and goes with multiple identities and multiple passports, and who rarely ever leave from the U.S. as a final departure point.

Have a nice day .... and do some more internet research!

I've provided links backing up everything I've said. You have yet to provide any I can remember.
As for your experts, hearsay is inadmissible. If they're not published, you aren't honest enough to be believed

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by Munchmasterman

I've provided links backing up everything I've said.

What's your point? If you have one.

The sad part about your rant is the information you really need to evaluate in making an assessment of the relative/comparative strength and resilience of the respective "militaries" of NK and the U.S. won't be found in "links," which is highly appropriate. What you need to see is "CLASSIFIED" ...

....and FYI I'm not talking about "ads" in the paper!

So the above statement by you underscores just how stupid you are!

Again: Have you gotten a peek at my OMPF?

According to WTF, AssUp, ButtScramble, Speedo, and BigTex THEY HAVE!

Have they been holding out on you and allowing you to look stupid?