THIS MADNESS HAS TO STOP!!!!

[Longermonger]

Originally Posted by lacrew_2000

I see a difference between a fillibuster (embedded in the rules) and deliberately denying a quorum (not within the rules)

But apparently you don't see the (fucking obvious!) similarity between the refusal to end debate by invoking cloture and the refusal to begin debate by having a quorum. I couldn't find a better parallel if I was standing on railroad tracks!

[Longermonger]

Originally Posted by lacrew_2000

Accepting the notion that the GOP has gone completely off the reservation, and misinterpreted their mandate Exactly right...what now? Do we:

1. Refuse to participate in the legislative process ala Thoreau?, flee from governmental duties like the last Republican Senators, make calls for violence see Sarah Palin and Tea Party movement, close government run institutions such as schools like Newt Gingrich and the last Republicans that overreached their 'mandate'.

2. Vote the rascals out at the next electoral opportunity. I'll settle for voting out the idiots.

If option 1 is chosen in this instance, why isn't option 1 chosen in every instance? Or why even bother with elections at all. Hey, let's force Wisconsin union workers vote every year if they want to keep the current governor!

I understand alot of people are pissed at what Walker is doing - but (when the tables were turned) our current president summed it up quite nicely: "We Won"....elections should have consequences. And those consequences have political fallout. The Wisconsin mess has already taken out Mitch Daniels from getting the nomination. He got labelled as a RINO by his own people and he's done before he started. Good luck in Wisconsin in 2012 and neighboring Iowa. The rest of the nominees will have to address the issue and will likely put their foots in their mouths. Heads up...you're losing the 2012 presidential election RIGHT NOW.

I feel like the sheriff of Rock Ridge in Blazing Saddles.

[lacrew_2000]

I had a philosophy professor, who was what I would call a zealot atheist. For an entire semester, he denegrated all things religious, and shouted down any student who had a differing view. It was almost comical, it was so over the top....his stubborness was exhausting. And its not like we in the class would bring up religion...he would constantly bring it up, just to stir the pot, and insult students who disagreed with him. He would nit pik every detail and parse words, and cloud the discussion with tangent issues, just didn't seem happy until he got into an argument over religion. He always started out pretending that he wanted to have a discussion...but it would soon become clear that all he really wanted to do is argue. He thrived on it....put him in an almost manic state.

Turns out that he had punked the entire class for a period of months. He was an ordained minister.

[Kshunter]

Originally Posted by Longermonger

That's a great ad paid for by the Wisconsin GOP. On the face of it, they have a point. There appear to be a few protesters that crossed the line. Be that as it may, the ad itself is also a problem. It's part of a big push to change the subject away from the Republican union busting going on. Fox/Tea Party/Koch brothers have doubled down and are flooding money and protesters into the state.

And that's what it is: union busting. The Wisconsin governor doesn't know how to take 'YES' for an answer. The unions have agreed to ALL of his budget cuts. They just refuse to surrender their right to collective bargaining. Don't believe this is just about public unions either. All you have to do is look at bills in other states attacking private unions to realize what is going on.

They public unions in Wisconsin are being scapegoated, but we all know they didn't cause the problem. The problem was the recession after the housing bubble burst. In fact, states with public unions do just fine. Just look at the rest of the 50 states.

Bullshit.

There is NO NEED whatsoever for government workers to have a union. It's just extortion of the taxpayers and funding for the incredibly corrupt Democratic party.

Want the real synopsis?

Like most Republicans, the Governor is showing up to work.

Like most Democrats, the Senators are doing everything they can to avoid it.

[Kshunter]

To solve the problem:

1. Teachers don't want to show up for work? Cool. Fire the sacks of shit and find some that will work.

2. Pull the licenses of the quacks who are standing out in front of the protests giving fake doctors' notes.

3. Recall the Senators who are avoiding their jobs.

Fuck these guys. Seriously. If any of us refuse to show up for work for a week, it's job abandonment and we're out - deservedly so.

[catnipdipper]

Cold Blooded comments from a guy that seems really pissed off.

A poll showed most people making $90,000+ supported removing collective bargaining while those below felt the workers should have that right.

[Kshunter]

Want a real life poll? How many unionized industries aren't in the crapper? Unions have killed the American steel and textile industries, and driven the car industry to death's door. As teachers have unionized, the American educational system has approached performance levels of third world countries. Unions offer some value in construction because of their training and certification programs, but that's about it. Cold blooded? Yep. Of course, anyone smarter than a turnip would recognize that with unemployment at 9-10%, it might not be time to have a highly public strike.

[catnipdipper]

Where is Upton Sinclair when ya need him?

I have seen enough Corporate Arrogance, Greed, and Stupidity, in my life to know a Union did not single handedly kill any company.

Gonna go back to indentured servitude or serfdom at the whim of Management.

Have anger management issues?

[CuteOldGuy]

Gee, I wonder what the patron saint of unions, Franklin Delano Roosevelt would say about government employee unions?

For example, although he had a lock on labor's vote, he expressed caution about public sector unions. In a little-known letter he wrote to the president of the National Federation of Federal Employees in 1937, Roosevelt reasoned:
"... Meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the government. All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations ... The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for ... officials ... to bind the employer ... The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives ...
"Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of government employees. Upon employees in the federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people ... This obligation is paramount ... A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent ... to prevent or obstruct ... Government ... Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government ... is unthinkable and intolerable."


Hmm, when the Democrats don't even have FDR on their side, I'd think they'd reconsider.

[Longermonger]

My guess is that your source for that edited quote is the Wall Street Journal...that got it from the Heritage Foundation...that is doing battle for David Koch. How close am I? I'm pretty close. Did you even check your source?

That quote is more about avoiding a violent strike than collective bargaining. In any event, public unions have been around a long time and have done more good than harm. I'm not impressed by an astroturfed, edited quote from 1937. What's next? Are you going to bring up Truman busting the railroad strike of 1946 by threatening to draft railroad workers into the military? Yeah...that pretty much makes Reagan look like a pussy, doesn't it.

[Longermonger]

Originally Posted by Kshunter

Bullshit.
There is NO NEED whatsoever for government workers to have a union. It's just extortion of the taxpayers and funding for the incredibly corrupt Democratic party.

Want the real synopsis?

Like most Republicans, the Governor is showing up to work.

Like most Democrats, the Senators are doing everything they can to avoid it.

Oops. You just showed your true colors. Wisconsin is about union busting. You also admit that Republicans are going after Democratic Party funding by attacking unions.

If there was NO NEED for government workers to have unions, they would not have them. They'd come to the conclusion that they could take home more money without paying union dues and the unions would disappear (because they are controlled by their members like CO-OPs...little democracies, unlike the monarchist structure of corporate management).

Your use of the word 'extortion' is just plain incorrect. The public union protesters in Wisconsin haven't done anything illegal. It's all on the up and up. You just wish it was illegal. Maybe you think that negotiating a contract for workers is illegal. Isn't that how it is done in a free market system? Two parties negotiate...one pays for the other's goods or services. I just don't know why conservatives take the BIG GOVERNMENT approach to teachers. They just want government to DICTATE what the terms are going to be and FORCE teachers to accept them. Walker is threatening to lay off 12,000 Wisconsin workers if he doesn't get his way. You're okay with that though?

Doesn't it usually take longer than 2 months before Republicans switch from "government is the problem" to "government is an awesome tool to crush my political enemy"?

[Longermonger]

Originally Posted by Kshunter

To solve the problem:

1. Teachers don't want to show up for work? Cool. Fire the sacks of shit and find some that will work. Yeah, that'll bring teachers rushing into the state. They won't be able to resist moving their whole families so they can enjoy the low wages in Wisconsin. LOL, idiot. Now you just fired all of the teachers and HAVE NO TEACHERS. Is the next step teaching creationism in churches or home schoolling?

2. Pull the licenses of the quacks who are standing out in front of the protests giving fake doctors' notes. Increasing unemployment not enough? Fire some doctors! Are you trying to turn this into Detroit?

3. Recall the Senators who are avoiding their jobs. Wow, you're just an unemployment machine.

Fuck these guys. Seriously. Ick! Gross! Sorry, I don't fuck guys. If any of us refuse to show up for work for a week, it's job abandonment and we're out - deservedly so.

You're solution is a disaster.

[Longermonger]

Originally Posted by Kshunter

Want a real life poll? How many unionized industries aren't in the crapper? Transportation, for starters. Unions have killed the American steel and textile industries, and driven the car industry to death's door. That's easily proven wrong. For example: Shouldn't there be a thriving post-union textile industry in the USA if unions were the cause? As teachers have unionized, the American educational system has approached performance levels of third world countries. My guess is that your teachers forgot to teach you the difference between correlation and causation. Unions offer some value in construction because of their training and certification programs, but that's about it. Cold blooded? Yep. Of course, anyone smarter than a turnip would recognize that with unemployment at 9-10%, it might not be time to have a highly public strike. Republicans picked this fight. I don't want to hear any whining about it's timing. Less than 2 months after extending tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires they launched an attack on teachers. Classy.

F- See me after class.

[CuteOldGuy]

Longer, seriously, you crack me up.

[KCJoe]

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/...-planning-infi

Love how Fox News is unbiased is their presentation of polling results.