So what do you think of Dianne Feinstein releasing the CIA Torture Report??

[WTF]

Originally Posted by gnadfly

Neither. That would be your mom.

Wow Miss Originality, you win top spot on the Gay Pride Float...

[JD Barleycorn]

Originally Posted by lustylad

I may have been wrong to attribute the order to Patton. It's probably not the type of thing that would have been documented anyway. My info came from someone who fought in the Bulge and had first-hand knowledge. He just said the "word came down" and it lasted for about a week. I wasn't aware of what happened at Chenogne. From the wikipedia account, there seems to be some disagreement over the historical facts. I certainly do understand how hard it would be for a US soldier to execute a captured POW, even under orders. A lot harder than pouring water down Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's throat.

.

I know from the book "The Devil's Guard" (written by an anonymus SS Major) that the French usually executed any SS or Gestapo soldiers that they got their hands on. That changed when the war was officially over but they gave the SS a chance, they could avoid a quick trial and likely hanging if they "volunteered" to go fight in a place called Vietnam. I've never read about any Malmedy kill order but I wouldn't be surprised that it was an unofficial order given by word of mouth and directed towards the SS wearing American uniforms.

Oh, and the Malmedy numbers were much higher than 41. More like 80.




I suppose you could call it stirring up shit by bringing up My Lai and Lt. Calley.

[boardman]

Funny how some of you become experts on some obscure orders from a war that ended nearly 70 years ago.
Wikipedia & Google makes us all a lot smarter, doesn't it?

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by boardman

Funny how some of you become experts on some obscure orders from a war that ended nearly 70 years ago.
Wikipedia & Google makes us all a lot smarter, doesn't it?

Read Stephen Ambrose's book, Band of Brothers, in 2001 before the HBO series came out. Read Carlo D’Este's book, Bitter Victory: The Battle for Sicily, 1943, three years ago. D’Este is an excellent writer who is on par with both Cornelius Ryan and John Toland. Note that D'Este is not one of the cited authors in the hyper-linked wiki article on the Biscari Massacre (but his contemporary Rick Atkinson, An Army at Dawn, is). Hence, knowledge of what's on pages 318-19 and in Appendix K in D'Este's book came from actually reading D'Este's book.

[boardman]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Read Stephen Ambrose's book, Band of Brothers, in 2001 before the HBO series came out. Read Carlo D’Este's book, Bitter Victory: The Battle for Sicily, 1943, three years ago. D’Este is an excellent writer who is on par with both Cornelius Ryan and John Toland. Note that D'Este is not one of the cited authors in the hyper-linked wiki article on the Biscari Massacre (but his contemporary Rick Atkinson, An Army at Dawn, is). Hence, knowledge of what's on pages 318-19 and in Appendix K in D'Este's book came from actually reading D'Este's book.

Did you assume I was talking about you? That's classic!

I would think more contemporary books like One Bullet Away: The Making of a Marine Officer by Nathaniel Fick and Generation Kill by Evan Wright would be more indicative of today's military.

Evan Wright was an embedded reporter with a Marine Recon Unit in the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Just so happens that Nathaniel Fick was a Lieutenant in the same unit and much of his book is about the same thing Wright wrote about. What's interesting is how differently, and similar, the two saw the war, battles, missions, orders coming down, personalities of individual marines, etc. and especially each other.

The HBO series Generation Kill was an awesome depiction of what is asked of our modern day officers and enlisted men in a much more PC world where every action is scrutinized. I believe it to be fairly accurate as some of the marines in Lt. Fick's unit were actually actors in the series and the series followed the book very closely.

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by Wakeup

Not going to justify these comments with any more response than this...have a nice day...

Ah, you disappoint me. Are you saying my comments are too offensive for you to respond to? That's seems like a cop-out on your part. I am only raising questions that need to be asked, especially by those who purport to take the moral high ground. My comments are partly in the devil's advocate vein. I am not trying to be morally righteous. Nor am I seeking to "justify" whatever happened at Chenogne. I appreciate your bringing it to my attention as it changes my attitude toward the no-prisoners story, if only because I hadn't envisioned us systematically mowing down POWs in a field like they did. Nevertheless the question remains - is there no difference between initiating barbarism and responding to it in kind? IMHO Malmedy is mitigating, but not exculpatory, to whatever happened at Chenogne.

My main issue is with those who act like these questions are black and white, with no shades of gray, and suggest that anyone who disagrees is morally blind or obtuse. I am not saying you think like that - I am referring more to the CIA "torture" debate and those who insist that releasing all the details serves some kind of useful cathartic purpose while being oblivious to the downside risks. IMHO the people who recognize moral ambiguity usually have a better moral compass than those who see everything in black and white.

.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by boardman

Did you assume I was talking about you?

I would think more contemporary books like One Bullet Away: The Making of a Marine Officer by Nathaniel Fick and Generation Kill by Evan Wright would be more indicative of today's military.

Evan Wright was an embedded reporter with a Marine Recon Unit in the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Just so happens that Nathaniel Fick was a Lieutenant in the same unit and much of his book is about the same thing Wright wrote about. What's interesting is how differently, and similar, the two saw the war, battles, missions, orders coming down, personalities of individual marines, etc. and especially each other.

The HBO series Generation Kill was an awesome depiction of what is asked of our modern day officers and enlisted men in a much more PC world where every action is scrutinized. I believe it to be fairly accurate as some of the marines in Lt. Fick's unit were actually actors in the series and the series followed the book very closely.

Your post seemed to be addressing all of us who were remarking on 70 year old orders; hence, I wanted to make it clear that what I posted wasn't garnered from a Google search as you erroneously suggested. I did watch the HBO mini-series Generation Kill; it was good. I have also read Michael Gordon and Bernard E. Trainor's Cobra II: The Inside Story of the Invasion and Occupation of Iraq, Mark Owen's No Easy Day, and a couple of other books focused on the U.S.' struggle with modern Islam; plus, I garnered a bit of first hand knowledge from my stint in Afghanistan. ijs

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

I suppose you could call it stirring up shit by bringing up My Lai and Lt. Calley.

WO Hugh Clowers Thompson, Jr.'s strength of character somewhat offsets Calley's weakness (Pp. 135-41, Four hours in My Lai by Michael Bilton and Kevin Sim).

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by boardman

Wikipedia & Google makes us all a lot smarter, doesn't it?

Probably not, but it keeps the bullshitters on their toes.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Your post seemed to be addressing all of us who were remarking on 70 year old orders;

It was. Or those who were remarking about the absence of them.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

I suppose you could call it stirring up shit by bringing up My Lai and Lt. Calley.

That was before the internet wasn't it.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by boardman

Funny how some of you become experts on some obscure orders from a war that ended nearly 70 years ago.
Wikipedia & Google makes us all a lot smarter, doesn't it?

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by WTF

Are you getting hoarse yet?

BTW: He wasn't referring to Barnes and Nobles. You're excluded.

Not excused. Just excluded.

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by boardman

Funny how some of you become experts on some obscure orders from a war that ended nearly 70 years ago.
Wikipedia & Google makes us all a lot smarter, doesn't it?

Go back to the Civil War. We've got a couple of real freaks in here who would love nothing more than to go back to the days of plantations and slavery... Every couple of months we get a "spirited" discussion that usually ends up in forty or fifty repeated strings of profanity.

Bot nothing is ever settled because only ONE person on here knows the answers!

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

.... because only ONE person on here knows the answers!....

Is that the plebe mod?