Shhh! It's a secret...?

[mastermind238]

Hmmmm. The op started this thread by asking a series questions of other providers. I for one would be very interested in hearing from those providers about the op's original questions. What i as a hobbyist think about how the op lives her life or conducts her business isn't nearly as interesting. So how about it, providers?

[19Trees]

In cases of single parents specifically and as it relates to family law generally, being an escort is better kept in the closet than out in the open. Has repeatedly had impact in custody-related matters. Should not be that way but has been and for now and foreseeable future it is good advice for parents engaged in custody matters or family law disputes to avoid posting face pics and being too out there....

Arguably the same question posed by the OP can be equally directed to Bob Hobby not only to Jane Provider. How many mongers are "out" visa vis their family and friends? Betcha its a lower percentage than the Jane Provider set?

Spilling guts and describing tales of eccie yore are mostly saved for perfect strangers and the Men's Lounge.

19Trees

[Bob McV]

I am so far in the closet I am next to the ugly sweaters and last season's fashion!

[mastermind238]

Originally Posted by 19Trees

Arguably the same question posed by the OP can be equally directed to Bob Hobby not only to Jane Provider. How many mongers are "out" visa vis their family and friends? Betcha its a lower percentage than the Jane Provider set?

Spilling guts and describing tales of eccie yore are mostly saved for perfect strangers and the Men's Lounge.

19Trees

Are you at all familiar with the Stonewall Riots? In the summer of 1969, gay men everywhere in this country lived on the fringes of society. Until they decided they weren't gonna take it any more. Things were never the same after that. I'm sure there's a good Wiki article on it if you aren't old enough to have read about it at the time.

I'm not saying a similar tactic would work to bring sex workers into the mainstream of American life, but doing nothing isn't an option for everyone.

As for mongers being out ... perhaps bringing sex workers into he mainstream would make it easier for hobbyists too. In european countries where prostitution is legal and controlled, patronizing a prostitute doesn't carry the stigma that it does here. I'm not saying every Dutch guy's wife or girlfriend thinks it's no big deal, but it certainly isn't the big deal it is here.

[Listener]

Originally Posted by mastermind238

Are you at all familiar with the Stonewall Riots? In the summer of 1969, gay men everywhere in this country lived on the fringes of society. Until they decided they weren't gonna take it any more. Things were never the same after that. I'm sure there's a good Wiki article on it if you aren't old enough to have read about it at the time.
.

Here we are back to trying to compare human rights to a deliberate choice to to engage in illegal activities simply because we want to.
Sex workers and mongers aren't innocent victims of social injustice whose civil rights are being violated.
We choose to participate or not participate in an activity that is illegal whether we believe it should be or not.

EFL I've heard nothing but good things about you as a provider and my intent isn't remotely to insist that you see things my way. It was to give you a perspective that perhaps you'd not considered. Clearly you had already considered it and don't give a fuck so I say go for it.

It's easy to talk about being fearless when you are a student without a job and have zero to lose. This is provided you don't get set up for a sting having drawn attention to yourself.
It is especially easy when you believe you are more accepted/liked by your piers because of it.

Call it fear but personally I have no problem with admitting to having serious concern over losing my livelihood for something as unimportant as a piece of young tail. A BBBJ from a sex worker is not nearly as essential to me as a career doing what I love. Jumping in front of a car to save a child would easily be worth the consequence. An hour staining the sheets with a stranger? Nope not worth it.

Anyway talk is cheap. Supporting mongers I say start using your real names instead of fantasy handles. Until you do that this whole "I support the right to boldly take an open stand and publicly fight for prostitution" act is all BS.

She's young and knows it all. If and when she ever loses custody of a child because of this recklessness then perhaps it'll sink in. Perhaps not but at this point I say go for it.

Put it out there and change the world. I wonder how many of Heidi Fliess's admiring acquaintances stood by her when the shit hit the fan and that wasn't even the bible belt.

[ck1942]

First off, BRAVO! to EFL for

1) having the balls to be frank and candid with her friends and, here and more or less in public via radio

2) no where did I read (or hear) that she has outed her personal identity to the masses, and I sincerely hope she keeps that private.

As for all the comments pro and con above, let me say this....

I do not consider EFL to be a "sex worker" per se; she and most other providers are more sexual or sensual or intimacy counselors... indeed they are true therapists!.

Gawd knows how many of us men and women in the hobby need to consider that attitude.

And for those gents who, like me, don't have the balls to out their hobbying outside the hobby community, well, not a bravo! per se, but a personal choice. Wish it could be different, and, indeed, maybe in France or Europe or Asia, we guys could consort more publicly. Ain't gonna happen in good old moralistic US of A in my lifetime.

(Anyone wants to discuss a bit more in person come to the Austin HH next week a bit early and we can chin.)

[RickRyder]

Originally Posted by Electricfeelnow

You know what? I most definitely had a mini panic attack before we went on air. I had doubts out the ying yang about what I could be doing to my social life. I was already not very well liked in the comic world (esp by comedians) and I was not respected at all.

After the radio show last night and another podcast we did that will be out in a week or two the feedback I got was amazingly positive. I got comics I never talked to messaging me to tell me they respected me MORE because of the interview. I had people I knew telling me they were proud of me and commended how brave I was. I had one of the hosts of the show - a seasoned Austin Comic - say he thinks the interview will "do a lot to change [my] online persona." Remember: my online persona in the comic world before yesterday = AWFUL. I was hated and mocked.

The woman who did the evening podcast was actually one of the female comics that particularly wasn't fond of me. I heard last night that both her and the host of the radio show "talked about how eloquent and intelligent" I was. I actually GAINED respect by not only people who already knew and liked me, not only strangers, but people who originally thought anything I had to say was trash.

For some, yes, it could be social suicide and I totally understand that. Others have much more on the line than I do. I'm just sayin'....it's doesn't always have to be social suicide.

Ah, so you now admit that it was you on the radio show the other day. If your now so open about your profession why did ya deny it in the previous thread?
Anyways, kudos to you for standing up for your beliefs.

[Bob McV]

Originally Posted by mastermind238

Are you at all familiar with the Stonewall Riots? In the summer of 1969, gay men everywhere in this country lived on the fringes of society. Until they decided they weren't gonna take it any more. Things were never the same after that. I'm sure there's a good Wiki article on it if you aren't old enough to have read about it at the time.

I'm not saying a similar tactic would work to bring sex workers into the mainstream of American life, but doing nothing isn't an option for everyone.

As for mongers being out ... perhaps bringing sex workers into he mainstream would make it easier for hobbyists too. In european countries where prostitution is legal and controlled, patronizing a prostitute doesn't carry the stigma that it does here. I'm not saying every Dutch guy's wife or girlfriend thinks it's no big deal, but it certainly isn't the big deal it is here.

Wow, Comparing this to Stonewall? Personally I think that is a bit of a stretch! The cops aren't raiding hooker bars nightly to harrassed, humiliated, beat and arrest escorts wile also taking bribes to ensure they don't do that very thing.

Also times are very different, any group that stands up in violent opposition it just gassed and hauled off (if not accidently shot a few times)

[H2O]

I think somebody is growing up. Plus being a provider probably pays more than comedy, too.

What about all the tax money the gov is missing out on?

Only some of my closest friends know about my fun.

[Guest031715-1]

Originally Posted by Fratelli

Interesting.

That said, I have nothing but respect for those, most especially those providers, who are willing to stand up unashamedly for what they believe and do. I couldn't do it. But this is how change starts. One drop at a time until suddenly, it seems, there is a tidal wave. It won't happen during your providing career. But one day, seemingly overnight, attitudes will shift and sex work will become accepted. The relatively recent acceptance by American society of homosexuality and gay marriage, after decades of fear and rejection both moral and legal, is a good example.

But early advocates tend to pay a heavy price. Be prepared.

Very, VERY well said. You hit the nail on the head as to why I am doing this and why I am willing to make the sacrifices I am realistic about possibly having to make down the road.

If I feared the law and stayed quiet in fear of legal consequences (or even social consequences), I would be playing right into their sexist game. I would be ding exactly what they want me to do. I would be accepting that my work is a shameful secret and that I will not speak out because my shameful work is, and deserves to be, illegal.

I say HELL NO to that, and I prepare as best I can for legal troubles down the road. I am not saying I wont get in trouble or that I don't fear that, but I am absolutely not going to let that stop me from advocating for a work I love, a work I'm proud of and a work that's helped save my life.

To all: I have had no hard feelings when replying to any of these posts, so if you sensed hostility, I apologize. I was simply observing what I was seeing.

[Guest031715-1]

Originally Posted by RickRyder

Ah, so you now admit that it was you on the radio show the other day. If your now so open about your profession why did ya deny it in the previous thread?
Anyways, kudos to you for standing up for your beliefs.

Dearest Rick,

I was asked if I had meant to say something other than what I had posted. I honestly answered the question with a "no" since I wrote exactly what I meant to write the first time.

Thank you!

[Guest031715-1]

Originally Posted by H2O

I think somebody is growing up. Plus being a provider probably pays more than comedy, too.

What about all the tax money the gov is missing out on?

Only some of my closest friends know about my fun.

Yes, H2O, I am, and I have my work to thank for a large part of that. I also have a handful of loyal clients that are also a part of that. The amount of love and support I have discovered through my work has been a major part of my "growing up."

What tax money? I run a legitimate and legal business and pay taxes. Well, that's what they know, at least. My work actually allowed me to pay taxes for the first time!

Thanks for sharing! I love hearing answers from both providers and hobbyists!

[Guest031715-1]

Originally Posted by Bob McV

Wow, Comparing this to Stonewall? Personally I think that is a bit of a stretch! The cops aren't raiding hooker bars nightly to harrassed, humiliated, beat and arrest escorts wile also taking bribes to ensure they don't do that very thing.

Also times are very different, any group that stands up in violent opposition it just gassed and hauled off (if not accidently shot a few times)

From Wikipedia:

"Gay Americans in the 1950s and 1960s faced a legal system more anti-homosexual than those of some Warsaw Pact countries.[note 2][4] Early homophile groups in the U.S. sought to prove that gay people could be assimilated into society, and they favored non-confrontational education for homosexuals and heterosexuals alike. The last years of the 1960s, however, were very contentious, as many social movements were active, including the African American Civil Rights Movement, the Counterculture of the 1960s, and antiwar demonstrations."

Like Marijuana Legalization and Gay Marriage rights.

"Throughout the 1950s and 1960s, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and police departments kept lists of known homosexuals, their favored establishments, and friends; the U.S. Post Office kept track of addresses where material pertaining to homosexuality was mailed.[11] State and local governments followed suit: bars catering to homosexuals were shut down, and their customers were arrested and exposed in newspapers. Cities performed "sweeps" to rid neighborhoods, parks, bars, and beaches of gay people. They outlawed the wearing of opposite gender clothes, and universities expelled instructors suspected of being homosexual.[12] Thousands of gay men and women were publicly humiliated, physically harassed, fired, jailed, or institutionalized in mental hospitals. Many lived double lives, keeping their private lives secret from their professional ones."

"In 1952, the American Psychiatric Association listed homosexuality in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) as a mental disorder. A large-scale study of homosexuality in 1962 was used to justify inclusion of the disorder as a supposed pathological hidden fear of the opposite sex caused by traumatic parent–child relationships. This view was widely influential in the medical profession."




Sounds AWFULLY similar to me.....nice catch, MasterMind!

[Guest031715-1]

Originally Posted by Bob McV

Wow, Comparing this to Stonewall? Personally I think that is a bit of a stretch! The cops aren't raiding hooker bars nightly to harrassed, humiliated, beat and arrest escorts wile also taking bribes to ensure they don't do that very thing. )

Cited from http://sexworkersproject.org/downloa...ingDoorFS.html

"Violence Against Prostitutes: Eighty percent of street-based prostitutes interviewed had experienced or been threatened with violence while working. When asked about reporting violence to the police, they reported that police did not take their complaints seriously and often told them that they should expect violence. "Carol" told researchers "If I call them, they don't come. If I have a situation in the street, forget it. 'Nobody told you to be in the street.' After a girl was gang raped, they said 'Forget it, she works in the street.'" She continued, "I hope that never happens to your daughters. I'm human."

"Police Violence Against Prostitutes: Thirty percent of sex workers interviewed told researchers that they had been threatened with violence by police officers, while 27% actually experienced violence at the hands of police. Reported incidents included officers physically grabbing and kicking prostitutes, as well as beating them; one incident of rape; one woman was stalked by a police officer; and throwing food at one subject. Sexual harassment included fondling of body parts; giving women cigarettes in exchange for sex; and police offering not to arrest a prostitute in exchange for sexual services."

[Guest031715-1]

Originally Posted by Listener

Here we are back to trying to compare human rights to a deliberate choice to to engage in illegal activities simply because we want to. Sex workers and mongers aren't innocent victims of social injustice whose civil rights are being violated. We choose to participate or not participate in an activity that is illegal whether we believe it should be or not. EFL I've heard nothing but good things about you as a provider and my intent isn't remotely to insist that you see things my way. It was to give you a perspective that perhaps you'd not considered. Clearly you had already considered it and don't give a fuck so I say go for it. It's easy to talk about being fearless when you are a student without a job and have zero to lose. This is provided you don't get set up for a sting having drawn attention to yourself. It is especially easy when you believe you are more accepted/liked by your piers because of it. Call it fear but personally I have no problem with admitting to having serious concern over losing my livelihood for something as unimportant as a piece of young tail. A BBBJ from a sex worker is not nearly as essential to me as a career doing what I love. Jumping in front of a car to save a child would easily be worth the consequence. An hour staining the sheets with a stranger? Nope not worth it. Anyway talk is cheap. Supporting mongers I say start using your real names instead of fantasy handles. Until you do that this whole "I support the right to boldly take an open stand and publicly fight for prostitution" act is all BS. She's young and knows it all. If and when she ever loses custody of a child because of this recklessness then perhaps it'll sink in. Perhaps not but at this point I say go for it.Put it out there and change the world. I wonder how many of Heidi Fliess's admiring acquaintances stood by her when the shit hit the fan and that wasn't even the bible belt.

Time to BREAK- IT -DOWN! Where's my theme music?!


"Here we are back to trying to compare human rights to a deliberate choice to to engage in illegal activities simply because we want to.
Sex workers and mongers aren't innocent victims of social injustice whose civil rights are being violated.
We choose to participate or not participate in an activity that is illegal whether we believe it should be or not."

You have it all wrong. The bottom line is, it SHOULDN'T BE ILLEGAL. I get this feeling that you do believe it should be illegal. Am I wrong?

I have a choice to be a sex worker but that choice shouldn't be off limits to me because of the law. I should be able to post my face in my ads and profile because I shouldn't have to live in fear of the law or of the custody of my future children.

SINGLE MOTHERS BENEFIT FROM THIS WORK THE MOST (in my opinion). They should NOT be looked at as unfit because they choose to work in a business where they are respected and valued and paid very well (ya know, a wage someone can actually support a kid on). Again, hiding in a hole because the law tells me to and tells mothers to is only playing into what they want us to play into.

It's illegal now, and I want to change that. I can't change that without pushing some boundaries.

"It's easy to talk about being fearless when you are a student without a job and have zero to lose. This is provided you don't get set up for a sting having drawn attention to yourself.
It is especially easy when you believe you are more accepted/liked by your piers because of it."

...Exactly. Since I don't have as much to lose as many other providers or hobbyists out there, I SHOULD be the one making the sacrifice and using my voice and work experience to advocate for all of us.

So I get stung. What do I really lose? Just an example to add to my experience so I will have even more fuel to battle with? A way to actually get a peek into the legal system and get to talk to other girls who have had similar experiences? I can make something good out of something bad...I have been in much worse places than prison, and I have been in jail for much worse things than being a very successful and professional business woman. Again, I am aware of sacrifices I may need to make and I am ready to make them. No one said this was going to be easy OR fun.

"Call it fear but personally I have no problem with admitting to having serious concern over losing my livelihood for something as unimportant as a piece of young tail. A BBBJ from a sex worker is not nearly as essential to me as a career doing what I love. Jumping in front of a car to save a child would easily be worth the consequence. An hour staining the sheets with a stranger? Nope not worth it."

Honey, we obviously have two very different relationships with the Hobby World. It's not just a BBBJ I provided, it's a very close and intimate experience I shared with someone. I provided pleasure, security, passion and fantasy. If we're friends, I provided support and love. It's not just staining the sheets with some stranger, it's pushing our limits together and sharing experiences we can't share with anyone else at this point in our lives. I'm providing a girlfriend, a friend, a lover, a healer, a spooner and a SUB. These things are much more than JUST anything...that's why our clients come to us.

In a way, my work is my child. I love my child and I am proud of my child and my child can do great things. I'm tired of the world telling me to hide my child and that if it's out, it will be punished and shamed for the rest of it's life. I'm tired of other lives being lost because my child can't go out and play. In a way, this IS me jumping out in front of a car to save a child. This is much more than just wanting to be allowed to make money off of "just a BBBJ."

"She's young and knows it all. If and when she ever loses custody of a child because of this recklessness then perhaps it'll sink in."

You're right, it'll sink in. It'll sink in that it's time to fight harder and smarter. It would mean there's even more reason to fight for our rights. To fight for our children. To fight for our respect.