Welcome to ECCIE, become a part of the fastest growing adult community. Take a minute & sign up!

Welcome to ECCIE - Sign up today!

Become a part of one of the fastest growing adult communities online. We have something for you, whether you’re a male member seeking out new friends or a new lady on the scene looking to take advantage of our many opportunities to network, make new friends, or connect with people. Join today & take part in lively discussions, take advantage of all the great features that attract hundreds of new daily members!

Go Premium

Go Back   ECCIE Worldwide > General Interest > The Sandbox - National
test
The Sandbox - National The Sandbox is a collection of off-topic discussions. Humorous threads, Sports talk, and a wide variety of other topics can be found here.

Most Favorited Images
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
Most Liked Images
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
Top Reviewers
cockalatte 650
MoneyManMatt 490
Jon Bon 400
Still Looking 399
samcruz 399
Harley Diablo 377
honest_abe 362
DFW_Ladies_Man 313
Chung Tran 288
lupegarland 287
nicemusic 285
Starscream66 282
You&Me 281
George Spelvin 270
sharkman29 256
Top Posters
DallasRain70831
biomed163721
Yssup Rider61304
gman4453368
LexusLover51038
offshoredrilling48837
WTF48267
pyramider46370
bambino43221
The_Waco_Kid37431
CryptKicker37231
Mokoa36497
Chung Tran36100
Still Looking35944
Mojojo33117

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-17-2011, 04:48 PM   #1
Sensia
Account Disabled
 
User ID: 6814
Join Date: Jan 8, 2010
Location: SW Houston
Posts: 2,502
My ECCIE Reviews
Default Should churches (defined as churches, temples, mosques, synagogues, etc.) remain tax-exempt?

http://churchesandtaxes.procon.org/

US churches* received an official federal income tax exemption in 1894, and they have been unofficially tax-exempt since the country's founding. All 50 US states and the District of Columbia exempt churches from paying property tax. Donations to churches are tax-deductible. The debate continues over whether or not these tax benefits should be retained.

Proponents argue that a tax exemption keeps the government out of church finances and thus upholds the separation of church and state. They say that churches deserve a tax break because they provide crucial social services, and that 200 years of church tax exemptions have not turned America into a theocracy.

Opponents argue that giving churches special tax exemptions violates the separation of church and state, and that tax exemptions are a privilege, not a constitutional right. They say that in tough economic times the government cannot afford what amounts to a subsidy worth billions of dollars every year. Read more...

Did You Know?
  1. The first recorded tax exemption for churches was during the Roman Empire, when Constantine, Emperor of Rome from 306-337, granted the Christian church a complete exemption from all forms of taxation following his conversion to Christianity circa 312. [2] [3] [4]
  2. The law against churches intervening in political campaigns was passed by the US Congress in 1954. Since then, the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) has been successful in using the law to revoke the tax-exempt status of only one church: the Church at Pierce Creek in Binghamton, NY, which had placed an advertisement in USA Today and the Washington Times rebuking Bill Clinton four days before the 1992 presidential election. [6] [7]
  3. In 1970, the US Supreme Court upheld property tax exemptions for churches, declaring them to be in accordance with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the US Constitution because the prohibited "'establishment' of a religion connoted sponsorship, financial support, and active involvement of the sovereign in religious activity," none of which applied to the tax exemption. [5]
  4. In spring 2010, the state of Oklahoma awarded tax-exempt status to a Satanist group called The Church of the IV Majesties. [8]
  5. According to former White House senior policy analyst Jeff Schweitzer, PhD, US churches own $300-$500 billion in untaxed property. [9] New York City alone loses $627 million in annual property tax revenue due to 9,500 churches being tax-exempt, according to a July 2011 analysis by New York's nonpartisan Independent Budget Office. [10] [11]

Pro & Con Arguments: "Should churches (defined as churches, temples, mosques, synagogues, etc.) remain tax-exempt?" PRO Tax Exemption for Churches
  1. Exempting churches from taxation upholds the separation of church and state embodied by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the US Constitution. The US Supreme Court, in a majority opinion written by Chief Justice Warren E. Burger in Walz v. Tax Commission of the City of New York, decided May 4, 1970, stated: "The exemption creates only a minimal and remote involvement between church and state, and far less than taxation of churches. It restricts the fiscal relationship between church and state, and tends to complement and reinforce the desired separation insulating each from the other." [5]
  2. The Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment of the US Constitution bars the US government from limiting the free expression of religion. By demanding church taxes, the government becomes empowered to penalize or shut down churches if they default on their payments. [12] The US Supreme Court confirmed this in McCulloch v. Maryland (1819) when it stated: "the power to tax involves the power to destroy." [13]
  3. Churches earn their tax-exemption by contributing to the public good. [14] Churches offer numerous social services to people in need, including soup kitchens, homeless shelters, afterschool programs for poor families, assistance to victims of domestic violence, etc. [15] These efforts relieve government of doing work it would otherwise be obliged to undertake.
  4. Taxing churches would place government above religion. The Biblical book of Judges says that those who rule society are appointed directly by God. [2] Evangelist and former USA Today columnist Don Boys, PhD, asked "will any Bible believer maintain that government is over the Church of the Living God? I thought Christ was preeminent over all." [16]
  5. A tax exemption for churches is not a subsidy to religion, and is therefore constitutional. As stated by US Supreme Court Chief Justice Warren E. Burger in his majority opinion in Walz v. Tax Commission of the City of New York (1970), "The grant of a tax exemption is not sponsorship, since the government does not transfer part of its revenue to churches, but simply abstains from demanding that the church support the state. No one has ever suggested that tax exemption has converted libraries, art galleries, or hospitals into arms of the state or put employees 'on the public payroll.' There is no genuine nexus between tax exemption and establishment of religion." [5]
  6. Poor and disadvantaged people relying on assistance from their local churches would suffer if churches were made to pay property taxes. According to Vincent Becker, Monsignor of the Immaculate Conception Church in Wellsville, NY, the food and clothing programs his church offers would be threatened by a tax burden: "All of a sudden, we would be hit with something we haven't had to face in the past… We base all the things that we do on the fact that we do not have to pay taxes on the buildings." [17] Crucial services would either be eliminated or relegated to cash-strapped local governments if churches were to lose their tax exemptions.
  7. US churches have been tax-exempt for over 200 years, yet there are no signs that America has become a theocracy. If the tax exemption were a serious threat to the separation of church and state, the US government would have succumbed to religious rule long ago. As the Supreme Court ruled in Walz v. Tax Commission of the City of New York (1970), "freedom from taxation for two centuries has not led to an established church or religion, and, on the contrary, has helped to guarantee the free exercise of all forms of religious belief." [18]
  8. Taxing church members on their donations would amount to double taxation. The late Rev. Dean M. Kelley, a leading proponent of religious freedom, explained that churchgoers are already taxed on their individual incomes, so "to tax them again for participation in voluntary organizations from which they derive no monetary gain would be 'double taxation' indeed, and would effectively serve to discourage them from devoting time, money, and energy to organizations which contribute to the up building of the fabric of democracy." [19]
  9. The only constitutionally valid way of taxing churches would be to tax all nonprofit charities, otherwise the government would be treating churches differently, purely because of their religious nature. This action would place undue financial pressure on the 960,000 public charities that aid and enrich US society. [20] [21]
  10. Small churches, already struggling to survive, would be further endangered by a new tax burden. A 2010 survey by the Hartford Institute for Religion Research found that congregations facing financial strain more than doubled to almost 20% in the past decade, with 5% of congregations unlikely to recover. [22] If these churches were obliged to pay taxes, their existence would be threatened and government would thus be impeding religious expression. [20]
  11. The Internal Revenue Code (IRC) gives churches the freedom to either accept a tax benefit and refrain from political campaigning like all other nonprofit charities, or reject the exemption and speak freely about political candidates. [1] [23] It is a misconception that political campaigning by churches is illegal. There are 450,000 churches in the US, yet only 500 pastors made political statements as part of Pulpit Freedom Sunday on Oct. 2, 2011. [35] [58] The tax exemption should remain in place to benefit the vast majority of churches.
CON Tax Exemption for Churches
  1. Tax exemptions for churches violate the separation of church and state required by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the US Constitution. By providing a financial benefit to religious institutions, government is supporting religion. Associate Justice of the US Supreme court, William O. Douglas, in his dissenting opinion in Walz v. Tax Commission of the City of New York, decided May 4, 1970, stated: "If believers are entitled to public financial support, so are nonbelievers. A believer and nonbeliever under the present law are treated differently because of the articles of their faith… I conclude that this tax exemption is unconstitutional." [24]
  2. A tax exemption is a privilege, not a right. Governments have traditionally granted this privilege to churches because of the positive contribution they are presumed to make to the community, but there is no such provision in the US Constitution. [25]
  3. Churches receive special treatment from the IRS beyond what other nonprofits receive, and such favoritism is unconstitutional. While secular charities are compelled to report their income and financial structure to the IRS using Form 990 (Return of Organization Exempt From Income Tax), churches are granted automatic exemption from federal income tax without having to file a tax return. [1]
  4. A tax break for churches forces all American taxpayers to support religion, even if they oppose some or all religious doctrines. As Mark Twain argued: "no church property is taxed and so the infidel and the atheist and the man without religion are taxed to make up the deficit in the public income thus caused." [26]
  5. A tax exemption is a form of subsidy, and the Constitution bars government from subsidizing religion. William H. Rehnquist, then-Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court, declared on behalf of a unanimous court in Regan v. Taxation with Representation (1983): "Both tax exemptions and tax deductibility are a form of subsidy that is administered through the tax system. A tax exemption has much the same effect as a cash grant to the organization of the amount of tax it would have to pay on its income." [27]
  6. The tax code makes no distinction between authentic religions and fraudulent startup "faiths," which benefit at taxpayers' expense. In spring 2010, Oklahoma awarded tax exempt status to Satanist group The Church of the IV Majesties. [8] In Mar. 2004, the IRS warned of an increase in schemes that "exploit legitimate laws to establish sham one-person, nonprofit religious corporations," charging $1,000 or more per person to attend "seminars." [28] The Church of Scientology, which Time Magazine described in May 1991 as a "thriving cult of greed and power" and "a hugely profitable global racket," [29] was granted federal income tax exemption in Oct. 1993. The New York Times reported that this "saved the church tens of millions of dollars in taxes." [30]
  7. Tax exemptions to secular nonprofits like hospitals and homeless shelters are justified because such organizations do work that would otherwise fall to government. Churches, however, while they may undertake charitable work, exist primarily for religious worship and instruction, which the US government is constitutionally prevented from performing. [31]
  8. Exempting churches from taxation costs the government billions of dollars in lost revenue, which it cannot afford, especially in tough economic times. According to former White House senior policy analyst Jeff Schweitzer, PhD, US churches own $300-$500 billion in untaxed property. [9] New York's nonpartisan Independent Budget Office determined in July 2011 that New York City alone loses $627 million in property tax revenue. [11] Lakewood Church, a "megachurch" in Houston, TX, earns $75 million in annual untaxed revenue, and the Church of Scientology's annual income exceeds $500 million. [32] [33]
  9. Despite the 1954 law banning political campaigning by tax-exempt groups, many churches are political machines. [9] [34] Every fall, the Alliance Defense Fund, a Christian legal group, organizes "Pulpit Freedom Sunday," encouraging pastors to defy IRS rules by endorsing candidates from the pulpit. More than 500 pastors participated in Oct. 2011, yet none lost their churches' exemption status. [35] In Oct. 2010, Minnesota pastor Brad Brandon of Berean Bible Baptist Church endorsed several Republican candidates and dared the "liberal media" to file complaints with the IRS. Brandon later announced on his radio program: "I'm going to explain to you what happened… Nothing happened." [35]
  10. American taxpayers are supporting the extravagant lifestyles of wealthy pastors, whose lavish "megachurches" accumulate millions of tax-free dollars every year. US Senator Chuck Grassley, MA (R-IA) launched an investigation into these groups in Nov. 2007 after receiving complaints of church revenue being used to buy pastors private jets, Rolls Royce cars, multimillion-dollar homes, trips to Hawaii and Fiji, and in one case, a $23,000, marble-topped chest of drawers installed in the 150,000 square foot headquarters of Joyce Meyer Ministries in Fenton, Missouri. [36]
  11. The tax break given to churches restricts their freedom of speech because it prohibits pastors from speaking out for or against political candidates. [1] As argued by Rev. Carl Gregg, pastor of Maryland's Broadview Church, "when Christians speak, we shouldn't have to worry about whether we are biting the hand that feeds us because we shouldn't be fed from Caesar/Uncle Sam in the first place." [37]
Background: "Should churches (defined as churches, temples, mosques, synagogues, etc.) remain tax-exempt?"


US churches received an official
(Click to enlarge image) A June 2008 survey of more than 1,200 adults showing Americans' views on churches endorsing political candidates.
Source: LifeWay Research, "New Research on Politics and the Church," blogs.lifeway.com, Sep. 24, 2008
federal income tax exemption in 1894, [38] and they have been unofficially tax-exempt since the country's founding. [39] All 50 US states and the District of Columbia exempt churches from paying property tax. [5] [40] Donations to churches are also tax-deductible. [41] The debate continues over whether or not these tax benefits should be retained. Proponents argue that a tax exemption keeps the government out of church finances and thus upholds the separation of church and state. They say that churches deserve a tax break because they provide crucial social services, and that church tax exemptions have been in place for over 200 years without turning America into a theocracy.
Opponents argue that giving churches special tax exemptions violates the separation of church and state, and that tax exemptions are a privilege, not a right guaranteed by the US Constitution. They say that in tough economic times the government cannot afford what amounts to a subsidy worth billions of dollars every year.

The US Internal Revenue Service (IRS) classifies churches as 501(c)(3) nonprofit charitable organizations, which are exempt from federal income tax and are able to accept tax-deductible donations. [1] Unlike secular charities, however, churches are automatically considered to be 501(c)(3) organizations, and, while they may do so voluntarily, they are not required by law to submit an application for exemption or pay the application fee (up to $850 as of Oct. 24, 2011 [42]). [1] In addition, using a benefit known as the "parsonage exemption" (or "parish exemption"), "licensed, commissioned, or ordained" ministers of religion may deduct most of the money they spend on housing from their federal income tax. [41] [43] [44]

The tax exemption for churches can be traced back to the Roman Empire, when Constantine, Emperor of Rome from 306-337, granted the Christian church a complete exemption from all forms of taxation following his conversion to Christianity circa 312. [2] [3] [4] Church property used for religious purposes was also tax-exempt in medieval England, based on the rationale that the church relieved the state of some governmental functions, and therefore deserved a benefit in return. [2] The English Statute of Charitable Uses of 1601, which included churches along with all other charitable institutions, formed the basis of America's modern tax exemption for charities. [45]



(Click to enlarge image) A monument located in Philadelphia, PA displaying the First Amendment of the US Constitution, which contains the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses at the heart of the churches and taxes debate.
Source: "Mary House's Boarding House (Fifth & Market Streets)," teachingamericanhistory.org (accessed Nov. 9, 2011)
By the time of the American Revolution, nine of the 13 original colonies were giving some kind of tax relief to churches. [2] In 1777, Virginia officially enacted an exemption from paying property tax to "houses for divine worship." [5] New York followed in 1799, and Congress exempted all churches in the District of Columbia from paying property tax in 1870. [48] [5]

During the 19th Century, opposition to churches retaining property tax exemptions was expressed by at least three US presidents: James Madison, James Garfield, and Ulysses S. Grant. [49] [24] [50] President Grant submitted a 900-foot long petition containing 35,000 signatures to Congress in 1875, demanding "that churches and other ecclesiastical property shall be no longer exempt from taxation." Grant told Congress that "in 1850, the church properties in the U.S. which paid no taxes, municipal or state, amounted to about $83 million. In 1860, the amount had doubled; in 1875, it is about $1 billion. By 1900, without check, it is safe to say this property will reach a sum exceeding $3 billion....so vast a sum, receiving all the protection and benefits of government without bearing its portion of the burdens and expenses of the same, will not be looked upon acquiescently by those who have to pay the taxes." [50]

US churches' federal income tax exemption was not formerly enacted as legislation until the Tariff Act was passed by Congress in 1894, providing tax exemptions to "corporations, companies, or associations organized and conducted solely for charitable, religious, or educational purposes." [51] This was the first time the federal government declared any group exempt from paying taxes, as opposed to its earlier practice of only listing entities subject to taxation. [38] Although the Tariff Act was declared unconstitutional in 1896, the church tax exemption was reinstated by the Revenue Act of 1913, which defined the modern American income tax system. [45] [46] On Jan. 14, 1924, the US Supreme Court interpreted the reason for the exemption in Trinidad v. Sagrada Orden: "Evidently the exemption is made in recognition of the benefit which the public derives" from churches' "corporate activities." [47]

The ban on church intervention in political campaigns became law in 1954 with the passage of then-Senator Lyndon Johnson's amendment to Internal Revenue Code (IRC) section 501(c)(3), which covers tax-exempt charitable organizations in general. [7] [52] The amendment was passed with no recorded input from churches or any other charitable groups. [7] Under the amended IRC, churches and all other 501(c)(3) charities are "absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office" if they are to remain tax-exempt. [IRC 8] Contributions to political campaign funds in support or opposition to candidates are also prohibited, but pastors may campaign as individuals without the imprimatur of the church, and churches may speak out on public issues so long as they don't "devote a substantial part of their activities to attempting to influence legislation." [1]

(Click to enlarge image) James Hale, the Lord High Master of the Church of the IV Majesties, granted tax-exempt status by the state of Oklahoma in spring 2010.
Source: Sarah Netter, "Satanist Church Rents Out Oklahoma City Civic Center for Exorcism," abcnews.go.com, Sep. 1, 2010

In practice, however, the IRS rarely investigates churches for violating the political campaign ban. [35] The IRS has successfully used the Johnson Amendment to revoke the tax-exempt status of only one church since the law was enacted in 1954: the Church at Pierce Creek in Binghamton, NY. [6] The church had placed a full-page advertisement in USA Today and the Washington Times four days prior to the 1992 presidential election, listing some of Bill Clinton's views on abortion, homosexuality and the distribution of condoms to teenagers in public schools, and comparing them unfavorably with the Ten Commandments. The ad went on to ask, "How then can we vote for Bill Clinton?" and specified, in fine print at the bottom of the page: "This advertisement was co-sponsored by The Church at Pierce Creek... Tax-deductible donations for this advertisement gladly accepted." [7]

On May 4, 1970, the US Supreme Court upheld property tax exemptions for churches, declaring them to be in accordance with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the US Constitution. In the majority opinion written by Chief Justice Warren E. Burger in Walz v. Tax Commission of the City of New York, the Court stated in its 8-1 decision that the exemptions did not equate with "the 'establishment' of a religion [that] connoted sponsorship, financial support, and active involvement of the sovereign in religious activity," all of which are prohibited. [5] [53] The Court also defended the tax benefit on the basis that churches "foster [the community's] 'moral or mental improvement.'" Furthermore, the court warned that taxing churches would be a violation of the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, which bars government interference in religious affairs. [53]

The 1983 US Supreme Court case Regan v. Taxation With Representation Of Washington upheld the 1954 Johnson Amendment barring churches (and other nonprofit charities) from receiving tax exemptions if they intervene in political campaigns. Then-Associate Justice William H. Rehnquist, on behalf of the unanimous Court, wrote that the IRS is under no obligation to grant a tax benefit to lobbying organizations, and that the freedoms guaranteed by the First Amendment do not have to be sponsored by the federal government in the form of a tax break. [27]
The Church of Scientology battled the IRS for 25 years to regain its tax exemption after the IRS withdrew it 1967, claiming the organization was a commercial enterprise rather than a church. [30] The IRS decision was upheld by numerous courts, despite Scientology and its members bringing 2,200 lawsuits against the IRS and its officials over the course of the dispute. [30] [54] The New York Times revealed in Mar. 1997 that during Scientology's campaign against the IRS, the
(Click to enlarge image) Time magazine cover featuring the Church of Scientology, which battled the IRS for 25 years to prove it was a nonprofit church and not a business enterprise.
Source: "Scientology Exposed," www.time.com, May 6, 1991
organization's lawyers had "hired private investigators to dig into the private lives of I.R.S. officials and to conduct surveillance operations to uncover potential vulnerabilities." [30] In 1991, the Scientology's ecclesiastical leader David Miscavige met with then-IRS Commissioner Fred T. Goldberg Jr. and offered to call off the group's lawsuits in exchange for regaining its tax-exempt status. The New York Times stated that in agreeing to Miscavige's proposal, Goldberg "created a special committee to negotiate a settlement with Scientology outside normal agency procedures" and that IRS "tax analysts were ordered to ignore the substantive issues in reviewing the decision," according to IRS files. [30] In order to receive the exemption, Scientology agreed to pay the IRS $12.5 million and "agreed to more Federal Government intrusion than perhaps any religious organization has ever allowed." [54]

In Nov. 2008, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon church) was accused by protesters of violating its tax-exempt status by supporting the passage of California's Proposition 8, a ballot initiative outlawing civil marriages for same-sex couples. [55] [56] However, Americans United for Separation of Church and State (AU) Executive Director Barry W. Lynn explained that the Mormons "almost certainly have not violated their tax exemption. While the tax code has a zero tolerance for endorsements of candidates, the tax code gives wide latitude for churches to engage in discussions of policy matters and moral questions, including when posed as initiatives." [55]

The campaign ban issue rose to prominence in the lead up to the 2012 US presidential election. On Oct. 12, 2011, AU wrote to the IRS to report Pastor Robert Jeffress, who had posted a video of himself endorsing Texas Gov. Rick Perry on the First Baptist Church of Dallas website. [57] No response from the IRS had been announced as of Nov. 11, 2011.
Sensia is offline   Quote
Old 11-17-2011, 05:02 PM   #2
Iaintliein
Valued Poster
 
Iaintliein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 6, 2010
Location: In the state of Flux
Posts: 3,311
Encounters: 2
Default

No.

Everyone should pay an equal tax rate, preferably a consumption or sales tax with uniform, individual deductions for food and shelter. All the wealth in the world doesn't do anyone any good until some of it's spent. And that's the best time to make sure it gets taxed.
Iaintliein is offline   Quote
Old 11-17-2011, 05:18 PM   #3
Sensia
Account Disabled
 
User ID: 6814
Join Date: Jan 8, 2010
Location: SW Houston
Posts: 2,502
My ECCIE Reviews
Default

Sorry I cut and pasted this from procon.org site but some of it came out a little displaced in formatting. You can just click the link I provided to go direct to their site. I like this site a lot as it allows people to participate. I am of the mind that churches or any religious organizations should not be tax exempt.
Sensia is offline   Quote
Old 11-17-2011, 05:29 PM   #4
WyldemanATX
Valued Poster
 
WyldemanATX's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 25, 2010
Posts: 2,959
Encounters: 20
Default

All non profits should not be taxed..... IF you tax the church you will awaken your worst nightmare as a liberal. That will open the door for a full on attack against all liberal politicians and Christians out number non believers. If you really want that I say bring it on.
WyldemanATX is offline   Quote
Old 11-17-2011, 06:36 PM   #5
pyramider
El Hombre de la Mancha
 
pyramider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 30, 2009
Location: State of Confusion
Posts: 46,370
Encounters: 10
Default

If the church engages in commercial activities then tax them. When churches quit being a place of worship but a political bully pulpit, tax them.
pyramider is offline   Quote
Old 11-17-2011, 09:19 PM   #6
budman33
Valued Poster
 
budman33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 30, 2009
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,648
Default

Every Church I have been to tells you how to vote. After the law changed where they weren't allowed to explicitly endorse politicians all that changed was the pastor, reverend would backhandedly say "we are not allowed to endorse .... or risk our tax exemption" But its business as usual.

Organized religion is truly a disappointment and I'm running out of churches within a decently short drive.
budman33 is offline   Quote
Old 11-17-2011, 09:50 PM   #7
CuteOldGuy
Valued Poster
 
CuteOldGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 20, 2010
Location: Wichita
Posts: 28,730
Encounters: 20
Default

I wish I could remember the cite, but when I was in law school I was researching a 1st Amendment issue and was in the basement among some really old books. In one of them I read that the reasons the Founders did not tax churches was because the churches agreed to take care of the needy, which was not a function of government. Since the churches seem to be most interested in taking care of themselves, and the government now takes care of everyone, there is no need to exempt them from tax.

If we followed Iaintlyin's suggestion and did away with tyrannical income and property taxes, and replaced it with a consumption tax, this wouldn't be an issue. That is the best solution.
CuteOldGuy is offline   Quote
Old 11-18-2011, 12:10 AM   #8
I B Hankering
Valued Poster
 
I B Hankering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 3, 2010
Location: South of Chicago
Posts: 31,214
Encounters: 9
Default

It might be more related to a First Amendment issue.

Chief Justice Marshall once said: "An unlimited power to tax involves, necessarily, a power to destroy."

Notably, taxes that focus exclusively on newspapers have been found unconstitutional.
I B Hankering is offline   Quote
Old 11-18-2011, 12:12 AM   #9
CuteOldGuy
Valued Poster
 
CuteOldGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 20, 2010
Location: Wichita
Posts: 28,730
Encounters: 20
Default

I don't get your point, IB. Who is proposing a focused tax on a single item?
CuteOldGuy is offline   Quote
Old 11-18-2011, 12:55 AM   #10
I B Hankering
Valued Poster
 
I B Hankering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 3, 2010
Location: South of Chicago
Posts: 31,214
Encounters: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy View Post
I don't get your point, IB. Who is proposing a focused tax on a single item?
Historically, churches have been perceived as non-profit, charitable organizations.

David M Andersen in Brigham Young University Law Review writes, “In 1894, Congress passed the first income tax on corporations but exempted from the tax those “corporations, companies, or associations organized and conducted solely for charitable, religious or educational purposes.”


To change that, you would need to enact laws in order to tax such "not for profit" organizations. Hence, that would be a de facto, single-focused change in tax law; thus, unconstitutional.
I B Hankering is offline   Quote
Old 11-18-2011, 01:19 AM   #11
I B Hankering
Valued Poster
 
I B Hankering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 3, 2010
Location: South of Chicago
Posts: 31,214
Encounters: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy View Post
I wish I could remember the cite, but when I was in law school I was researching a 1st Amendment issue and was in the basement among some really old books. In one of them I read that the reasons the Founders did not tax churches was because the churches agreed to take care of the needy, which was not a function of government. Since the churches seem to be most interested in taking care of themselves, and the government now takes care of everyone, there is no need to exempt them from tax.
BTW, it appears you are somewhat correct in your assertion that churches were not taxed because they supplemented the need for humanitarian services and relieved this burden off of the back of government. However, it was in 1894 and not in 1789. Furthermore, this exemption reflected the common law tradition not to tax churches inherited from the Old World.
I B Hankering is offline   Quote
Old 11-18-2011, 06:18 AM   #12
pyramider
El Hombre de la Mancha
 
pyramider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 30, 2009
Location: State of Confusion
Posts: 46,370
Encounters: 10
Default

Has anyone looked at some of the mega churches? Or the clergy making millions? Tax them until they can prove they spend their money on charitable acts.
pyramider is offline   Quote
Old 11-18-2011, 07:20 AM   #13
waverunner234
Valued Poster
 
waverunner234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 7, 2010
Location: United States of California
Posts: 1,706
Encounters: 10
Default

I think it's okay for a church to have their social services as a deduction on a Tax Return but why should it be tax free when it comes to building, salaries, maybe they rent out rooms for meetings and do a lot more stuff that should not be tax free.
For instance for a cleaning service it doesn't make a difference if a church or a commercial business is cleaned.
And I've heard there are churches that own a plane for the clergy. Those costs should not be tax deductible.

And if the church preaches that guys should not have a gf on the side we should just tax the hell out of them.
waverunner234 is offline   Quote
Old 11-18-2011, 10:45 PM   #14
Little Stevie
Valued Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 4, 2009
Location: North Texas
Posts: 2,011
Encounters: 26
Default

Personally, I think all you flat tax and flat earth fools should forever pay homage to the mega-churches by being forced to refuel all of Pastor Kenneth Copeland's airplanes and helicopters.

The time when churches played THE major role in feeding and clothing the needy has long since passed. At least the more opulent and ostentatious of their activities and pastoral stipends should now be looked at in detail and treated as the "for profit" money pits they are.

I would venture to say that many actually help separate the poorest from their meager earnings.

May I also say that I also become aroused whenever Guilty Pleasures' research or avatar accompanies any reading material.

Hear, hear, GP!, You have pointed us toward another revenue stream undeserving of broad exemptions - ala the enormous subsidies Republican Congressman Joe Barton of TX fiercely guards for the energy cartel.

Well-found, well-researched and well-asked, my lady.
Little Stevie is offline   Quote
Old 11-19-2011, 06:49 AM   #15
Mojojo
Aficionado
 
Mojojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 27, 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 33,117
Encounters: 114
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pyramider View Post
Has anyone looked at some of the mega churches? Or the clergy making millions? Tax them until they can prove they spend their money on charitable acts.
I share similar thoughts with you on that. I say tax them, church's in America are beginning to be a business rather than a place of worship. I think its ridiculous when the collection plate has a minimum on donations.

If anyones ever attended church outside the U.S. you'll see the huge difference, churches their ask you to donate what you can not what you should.
Mojojo is offline   Quote
Reply



AMPReviews.net
Find Ladies
Hot Women

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright © 2009 - 2016, ECCIE Worldwide, All Rights Reserved