How Serious Radiation from Japan?

[theaustinescorts]

A friend of mine died last year from cancer her contracted from exposure to an atomic test in the 1950s.

Apparently he inhaled some radioactive isotopes in the 1950s which stayed in his body all this time. They gave off radioactive energy which was destroying and mutating cells for decades. When he was younger his body would clean up the mutated cells and little cancers and he was okay. But when he got older his body's defenses weakened, and the continuous little cancers the isotopes produced spread and overwelmed him.

I think this is going to happen a lot from the radiation from Japan.

I think we are being lied to about the nature of the isotopes from there.

There is no such thing as a "safe level of radiation."

"Radiation" is actually many different forms of nuclear energy. Some are waves of energy which pass through the body. There are safe and unsafe levels of that kind of nuclear energy. But another kind of nuclear energy is not waves, but particles - isotopes or atoms which are themselves giving off waves. I don't think there's any safe level of radioactive particles that a person can inhale or ingest. Once such particles are lodged in the body they give off waves of energy continuously, which always causes cancerous cells to arise.

These are materials which do not occur in nature naturally. They are manufactured to produce nuclear reactors or bombs, and when they are released into the atmosphere and inhaled they pose a cancer risk for anyone for the rest of their lives.

Am I wrong?

[BigTee]

There are safe levels of radiation, they use them (ironically) to treat cancer patients all the time.

You are right that inhaling radioactive particle is the most deadly. Although there are a lot of materials that are radioactive naturally like granite, of course uranium and coal.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf30.html

No one here in the United States mainland has anything to worry about "the cloud" that's forming in Japan. The radioactive material has a small chance of making it, in larger deadly doses to the mainland. Don't waste money and run off to buy up potassium iodine.

[theaustinescorts]

Originally Posted by BigTee

The radioactive material has a small chance of making it, in larger deadly doses to the mainland. Don't waste money and run off to buy up potassium iodine.

I think it's already here, and my point is that there are not any safe doses involved when particles rather than waves are concerned.

The kinds of radiation that are used to kill cancer cells are waves which pass through the body killing mostly cancer cells and few others. But this is different from radioactive particles.

I don't think there's any safe level of the particular kind of radiation that's coming from Japan, which is particles, when they are inhaled.

I think what's going on is that measurements are being taken of the level of waves given off by the particles which arrive here, and those levels are very small.

But take the same particle giving off these harmless levels of waves in the environment and put it inside someone's body and it will definitely create cancer cells. The particular isotopes which are produced by reactors create waves which cause cancer more than the benign radioactive isotopes found naturally in radon or granite.

Whether the person with the isotope inside them survives the presence of the cancer is another issue, but it will always be there if the isotope has been ingested or inhaled.

[BigTee]

They are the same kind. I work with radiation all the time. I work around Cobalt-57, Iodine-131 and Strontium-90. All of the same elements coming from the reactor. They are the same particles, ionizing radiation.
Yes if you are feet, or anywhere near 50 miles of the reactor you can get sick. 5000 miles? Not at all.

These elements have half lives meaning after a certain period of time they lose half of their energy. I-131 for example has a half life of 8 days... how long has it been since the tsunami? 8 days.

You'll get more radiation by taking a cross country flight than by what's going on in Japan here in Texas.

[Codybeast]

Very interesting thread and topic. I started a similar one here http://www.eccie.net/showthread.php?t=191916 a few days back but it got very little response.
I assumed probably because it's so real and serious that folks just don't want to think about it.

So far this has been very informative. I hope it gets better response than mine did. Important topic. Thanks for posting it.

[Sexy Roxanne]

It does say online that the radiation has reached Southern California, but are not at harmful levels. I just hope they get it all under control and that the rest do not expload. I have bought the potassium iodide pills, one can never be to safe. BTW they are selling out very fast. Granted they do not protect from external radiation, only internal.

[BigTee]

Here's a GREAT pdf from the EPA

http://www.epa.gov/rpdweb00/docs/402-k-07-006.pdf

And a lot of useful info about radiation on the EPA website
http://epa.gov/radiation/

[GneissGuy]

Obviously, we'd all prefer it if no radioactive material from Japan was drifting around the world.

We have extremely sensitive radiation detection equipment that was designed to tell when foreign countries did testing of nuclear weapons, nuclear research, etc. It detects levels of radiation far below the level at which we'll notice health effects.

Even if the reactors do melt down, most of the radiation will stay at the reactor site. Only a small fraction of the nuclear material will drift far away from the site. Even if there is an explosion, it will not be what we think of as a "nuclear" explosion, just a radioactively contaminated chemical or steam explosion. It will be really bad to be there or close by and downwind.

Nuclear bombs are another thing entirely. In a nuclear bomb, all the nuclear material in the bomb is heated to millions of degrees. All the nuclear material is vaporized into a gas. The temperature causes the vapors to drift upward into the stratosphere in gaseous form and rise into the stratosphere, where the jet stream and other air currents will carry it far from the site of the explosion. A nuclear bomb will also release large amounts of neutrons which will transmute the non-nuclear parts of the bomb, and any nearby material into radioactive isotopes and scatter it over a wide area.

An above ground nuclear bomb blast is much "dirtier" than anything likely to come from an accidental nuclear reactor "meltdown." Both are bad, but one is MUCH worse.

What's the point about the nuclear bombs?

The US dropped two bombs on Japan. We did above ground testing of several bombs in Nevada and some Pacific Islands. Some of these were hydrogen bombs, which are much bigger.

While you may argue that there was some small increase in the cancer rates worldwide from these tests, there were no noticeable problems for those far away from the bomb sites. These bombs released many times more radiation than the nuclear plants can. We won't see any noticeable effects.

Of course, if you're the only person in the US who gets cancer because you breathed a particle of radioactive iodine from the reactor, it's not a small event to you or your loved ones.

Yes, it's a bad thing. However, for those of us in the USA, your risk from dying in a car accident from taking one extra trip to the grocery store is probably higher than your risk from a Japanese reactor meltdown.

It's a much worse situation for the people nearer the reactor sites, of course.

[BigTee]

Well put Gneiss, my thoughts exactly.

[GneissGuy]

The radiation used to treat cancer patients is not "safe." It's simply used in a way such that the benefit it gives from killing active cancer cells is less than the damage it does to non cancer cells.

Medical X-rays are not "safe". If used properly, the benefits of the X-rays are higher than the risks. If 1 in million people die from medical X-rays, and 1 in 10,000 have their lives saved, it's a good thing.

Flying across the country in a jet gives you an extra dose of radiation. If there's a 1 in a million chance we'll die from the radiation from a plane trip, most of us would take the risk. We'd still be safer than driving.

Seat belts and airbags aren't safe. Occasionally, someone will be killed by an airbag or die because they can't get out of a burning car. They probably save more lives than they take.

Sorry your friend died of cancer. How do you know it was from nuclear bomb tests? Lots of old people get cancer without any particular exposure to bomb tests. There's naturally occurring radiation from space all the time. There's radiation from naturally occurring radioactivity in the soil, rocks, building materials. There's naturally occurring radon in our environment. There are naturally occurring carcinogens in the environment. There are known and unknown carcinogens in pollution and manufactured products. TV's with picture tubes produce X-rays. Most people have had medical X-rays. Some viruses can cause cancer. Some natural foods increase cancer chances. Our cells sometimes become cancerous due to natural mistakes in copying the DNA in the cell growth process.

[winemaker]

Actually, AE, many are naturally occuring radioisotopes, however, they are in insufficient quantity anywhere for nuclear fuel, weapons etc.

The worst offender is Plutonium. It doesn't have to be radioactive either, its EXTREMELY toxic. Back in the days when I was at LANL, the chief scientist had a glass globe with some Pu239 in the center. The damn thing was hot to the touch. You couldn't even see the particle of Pu in it. He recently passed at a ripe old age of 81.

Alpha particles ( primary radiation ) is stopped by clothing. High energy Beta particles ( electrons ) can cause some issues due to direct burns and mucking with chemical bonds, but its not mutagenic. Mutagenics are cause by gamma as well as neutron emission.

If you have a smoke detector in your house, it all probability its active element is a nuclear source, Americium.

As GG points out, one reason medical doctors have suggested NOT wearing tight fitting underwear is from thermal effects, of course, but also, the high presence of naturally radioactive calcium and carbon in our bodies.

Pick up ANY piece of Lead of hold it near a gieger counter, it will show some amount of radiation, again, naturally occurring radioisotope.

[theaustinescorts]

Originally Posted by BigTee

They are the same kind. I work with radiation all the time. I work around Cobalt-57, Iodine-131 and Strontium-90. All of the same elements coming from the reactor. They are the same particles, ionizing radiation.
Yes if you are feet, or anywhere near 50 miles of the reactor you can get sick. 5000 miles? Not at all.

These elements have half lives meaning after a certain period of time they lose half of their energy. I-131 for example has a half life of 8 days... how long has it been since the tsunami? 8 days.

You'll get more radiation by taking a cross country flight than by what's going on in Japan here in Texas.

Yes I know these isotopes give off manageable levels of rays, or waves, when you're around them, but what about when they are inside you?

These same isotopes which are not harmful when they are outside your body become certain carcinogens when they are inhaled or ingested.

My point is that the risk from Japan isn't the low levels of waves emited from the particles [the only thing I've seen reported] but the risk that they will be inhaled or ingested, where their low levels of emitted waves will certainly cause cancer.

[GneissGuy]

People in the US inhaled radioactive materials from US, Russian, French, and Russian bomb tests and from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We inhaled radioactive material from Three Mile Island and Chernobyl. We will inhale radioactive material from the Japanese reactor problems. We inhale radioactive material in dust from the naturally occurring radioisotopes in the earth's crust. Our bodies require potassium to live. The potassium in our food has a certain natural level of radioactivity.

Different isotopes have different risks when ingested or inhaled. Radiation from outside our bodies has its own risks. These risks are pretty well understood, but they are a probability thing. X amount of material Y gives you a 1 in XXX chance of getting cancer or other disease. It's like buying a lottery ticket where the prize is cancer.

The risks of inhaled/ingested radioisotopes are well known. The people making the calculations are considering the risks of the fallout based on both inhaled/ingested material as well as the effects of any radioactive material outside our bodies. We've been through radioactive fallout before. We know what happens.

The numbers aren't that precise, but that means you don't know whether you have a 1 in a million chance or a 1 in 2 million chance. Radioactivity releases have happened before. We know about the possible risks of releasing certain amounts of certain radioactive materials.

The Japanese reactor failures are a bad thing, especially for the Japanese. Here in the US, thousands or tens of thousands of people will get cancer from other radiation sources for everyone who gets cancer from the Japanese reactors, even if the cores explode.

[Codybeast]

Great scientific input. My concern is what time will reveal and more importantly what we are not being told to avoid panic. It has been windy here in Texas the past few days. Anyone know from what direction it blows?

[GneissGuy]

Originally Posted by Codybeast

Great scientific input. My concern is what time will reveal and more importantly what we are not being told to avoid panic. It has been windy here in Texas the past few days. Anyone know from what direction it blows?

At this latitude, the air flows mostly west to east, but there's a lot of variation north and south. Also, the further it travels, the more it spreads out, which makes it cover a larger area, but at a lower concentration. Don't forget, it's probably 10,000 miles from there to here as the fallout flies.