Tragedy, Not comedy

[lemontrees]

I am half listening to TV. Apparently NCAA is expressign questions about low graduation rates of the basket ball players. Some rates inthe 40% and some as low as 20%.

One coach < ( don't know who he was ) says the problem is not theirs ( colleges) but harkens back to High, Middle, elementary schools.

SOAPBOX HERE

He is SO very right. FAR too many schools do social promotion ( even if it is not allowed), or special dispensation for athletics , in spite of no pass no play, rules are bent. (You ought to see it where we are). They look around to see what loopholes there are. What I see in the HS, and not just the athletes ( but it is VERY apparent there), but many of the regular students is that too many are no where near where they should be educationally.

Teaching a foreign language when a child ( HS) can't identify the NOUN ( remember, person, place, thing) in a sentence, or the VERB
( action word) is virtually impossible. Trying to construct a sentence in a foreign language when they cannot construct a complete sentence IN ENGLISH is an exercise in futility.

The local profs at the community college say thwy no longer EXPECT an incoming student to have these basic abilities. COME AGAIN??? Entering college without the expectation of BASIC skills? Then how do you teach them the advanced things they should learn in college?

Claiming that the problem is not a college, but a HS problem has merit. But do these entering athletes not have to pass some sort of college entrance ( SAT, ACT) testing? Do these coaches know that these people have little to NO academic abilities ? Did they care when they gave them these scholarships to play for them? Do they have an academic eligibility clause to play sports? Are their grades " fudged" ( or instructors pressured to pass) in order to allow them to play? Does anyone notice ( until the end of their eligibility) that these people are NOT going to graduate?

It seems as if the same demons that plague sports in the HS areas is just more advanced at the college level. OH! I just figured it out! College is supposed to be a more advanced level of education, so these " situations with sports" are merely more advanced at the college level!!!

What are your thougths? Can it be fixed? How?

[colels]

I'm not all that sure the "athlete" situation can or should be fixed. I totally agree with your points regarding High School situation, but I worry more about the vast majority of students who are not "star" athletes. Many leave High School, both via graduation & dropping out, totally unprepared for life in the workforce.

Athlete graduation rates is something the talking heads fall back on when they run out of material. Yes, college athletics is a somewhat out of control monster, but it annoys me to no end to hear the very sports programming entities that helped create the monster, decrying it's existence. Lot's of bigger issues to worry about.

[hd]

I believe it is the schools, not the colleges problem to fix. I won't get into a debate about this, but, coming from a small Ohio town, I believe smaller town school systems have a better turn out rate than large cities because of teacher to student ratio.
Moving to Dallas 30+ years ago, what stands out to me is young people working cash registers in stores had trouble counting my change since registers didn't show the change amount at that time, and the lack of proper english from the young people, let alone some older folks. My english teachers were turning in their graves!
And it doesn't seem to be improving, of course we need to keep in mind, the young people that are better educated for the most part, probably have better jobs and are not always in positions that we will readily see. Just like some of the college kids, there are so many more out of our sight that go on to be productive people, we just never see that. I think college athletes are a very small percentage of the poorly educated students that come out of those institutions, but unfortunately have the higher public profile.

[charlestudor2005]

To blame the HS is misdirection on the college's part. They have the athletes and know what their capabilities are, especially by the time those athletes reach the varsity squads. The colleges should prevent them from playing if they can't make the grades...which they can't. The colleges are being twice as bad as the HS. The college is in a position to enforce grades for play, while the HSs are public.

The colleges should be bearing the bulk of the blame for the following reasons:

1. They have the capability of finding out the scholastic aptitude before the student gets into college and surely before getting on the varsity squad.
2. They have the responsibility and duty to deny the college student from being on the team as long as the grades are wanting.

[guest041110]

While I agree that colleges can’t shuck their responsibility I do believe the inherent problem starts like you suggested Lemontrees, in elementary school. When my ex and I used to try help and my daughter when she was in junior high, more than 10 years ago, with things like dangling participles, sentence diagramming or using things like phonetics to sound out words, we discovered that these were things my kiddo did not know until we taught her. Yes, the schools are to blame for a lot but then so are the parents.

I personally have a problem with Academia and its ivory tower BS way of thinking. If a student cannot properly diagram a sentence how in the wild world of sports are they going to understand a sentence well enough to speak much less read? In other words, they can’t which is exactly what we see today. The ones being hurt by the current academic rigors are the very students who are not being taught. To further complicate matters is the foolish notion that there are no consequences for ones actions and that there is the Political Correctness found within society today. People come in first, second and last place for a reason. That is life and it is about darn time the schools get their acts together and start doing things like they did in the 40’s, 50’s and early 60’s as far as discipline in school and teaching the R’s.

The days of the live and let live BS have been way over for more than 30 years.

[MrGiz]

While I agree that our educational systems are weak to say the least.... I think an equally troubling problem is the lack of Parental Involvement throughout Elementary and High School years! The schools of the 40's , 50's and 60's never did all of the educating! Parental Involvement and insurance that their kids are learning properly is a sorely lacking ingredient in today's world!! At least... in the Good Ole U.S.A.

Giz's $.02

[guest041110]

True Mr. Giz, I did omit that portion from my post. Parental involvement is not what it once was and I have a few beliefs as to why that is case but that would divert this thread hopelessly.

[lemontrees]

I thank you all for your comments and appreciate your time spent expressing it.

I am hoping that what I witness where I live is the exception and not the rule, but I fear it is not. What I see frightens and sickens me. I am WAY old school and spent last year trying to instill my values ( learning) and methods ( attend class, come prepared, behave, pay attention, do your assignments, participate, TRY) in the grouops I worked with. ( **note** I did NOT teach typing!)
But with the exception of about 5 teachers, found that none of the other teachers, and CERTAINLY not the Acministrators, had any of the same ideas.

The policy seemed to be, pass them on so you do not have them again next year. Oh, they wanted them to pss the tests, but had no interest in enforcing conditions that might foster learning. Then were so surprised and terribly disapppointed when their hopes were not realized.

Around here, parental incolvement is almost non existent. Even for the very youngest, you do not find moms wanting to be involved with their kids. If a parent will not come to a conference, and repeatedly sends a child to school sick and medicated to where they can't even sit up then willnot come get them when called by the nurse, no one expects them to assist in their academics. ( That is if they KNEW how, which most do not.)

But until the administrators decide that it is NOT OK for the inmates to run the asylum, none fo this will change.

As was mentioned earlier, the COLLEGES DO have an option. They ASK for these athletes to be there. BUT they are more concerned with fielding a winning team ( and will use most any methods to do so) than they are seeing that that person leaves with an education. And with a little bit of digging, they coudl EASILY learn if the kid has the academic back ground to survive and ultimately graduate. But the truth is, they really don't want to know. They wnat to USE the kid as long as they can ( until eligibility ends) to further their OWN reputations. ( But the very same can be said at the HS level too).

Now not ALL athletes are this way. And I suppose there are a FEW schools that are not like this either. But they should not be the minority.

However, if the NCAA DID crack down SERIOUSLY, without EXCEPTIONS, it would eventually trickle down. Colleges woudl not solicit academically inferior people, and once the HS saw that if their kids did nto meet stringent academic requirements, they would NOT get the offers, then they would crack down on them regarding their own requirements, and hoepfully it woudl trickle down to the way lower levels where much of this mess begins.

[charlestudor2005]

We have tied what our daughter loves to the grades she gets. The motivation works. My SO complained yesterday that the daughter had let one of her grades slip...to a 92. All her other scores are fairly consistently in the high 90s and 100. And she is in middle school.

But we have several advantages others don't have:

1. We are involved w/ the daughter and make sure she does her work.
2. We are both educated with advanced degrees and value education.
3. The daughter is motivated because she wants to do things that we make off limits if she doesn't make the grades.
4. We make sure she is in a G&T program which puts her at the top end of the public school system.

Not all kid have these things going for them.

[TexTushHog]

Pay teachers a living wage. Then you'll get a much higher quality of applicants for the job. And by living wage, I'm talking about over $100k per year. Then the people who are applying to med school, law school, getting MBAs, etc., will consider teaching. Starting salary for a teacher in Texas is $27k if you're in a poor district and don't get a local district supplement. Top salary is $47k if you have 20 years and a masters. You can't get top quality talent for that. Period.

[lemontrees]

Many if not MOST people that teach actually LOVE to do it. OR DID love to. But at far too many schools ( where I am presently) the beahvior of the children, disrespect, sometimes even abuse, and the LACK OF SUPPORT from their superiors is what is making them take retirement as soona s they can. And many that have managed to stick it out for 20+ years TRY to be good teachers. They BELIEVE in what they do, But when class control is taking up half the class ( usually by a select few) that takes away from all of the kids that want to learn. ( there are some)

To find administrators that refuse to remove the bad oens ( and that really can make a great difference) or have the kids WANT to be sent to ISS or D hall,( or whatever you call it) because they get to do nothing and listen to Ipods or text on their phones!!!

They KNEW the $$ were not going to be that great, EVER. But they never expected it to be a year long fight.

And to have all blame placed on teachers, and NONE on students ( where is "Personal responsibility") eventually pushes many over the line and they opt out.

Money won't solve everything ( and I am sure they would really appreciate a bit being thrown their way).-

[hwygnome]

Schools do need to get back to teaching stuff kids need to learn rather than teaching to pass a test.

The parents need to learn that, OH MY GAWD, yes the little one who can do no wrong can indeed be a trouble maker and hand out punishment at home. Schools are for learning not raising kids. Which is along the lines that lemontrees mentioned is that kids now feel invincible and learn that they can get away with many things since they can't be punished.

[cptjohnstone]

back to the original question, the problem is these kids go pro after the 3rd year in college or go else where after their first year