This is for the liberals out there...

[john_galt]

In this country we have the right to believe in anything that we want, facts not withstanding but I have to ask our left leaning readers something; Do you really support all the things that your party is doing?
1. Spending the United States into oblivion (warning: Bush is not the topic and conversatives were not too happy with his spending, we said so as well)
2. Dithering instead of making the hard decisions; troops in Iraq, troops in Afghanistan, the oil well leak in the Gulf, the Jones Act, the Healthcare bill (whether you like it or not), etc. One president said that I'm the decider and that is what a president is elected for.
3. Putting politics into the census, the bailout, TARP (states that supported Obama received more of the money), etc.
4. Placing SEIU and union members in charge of national committees that oversea our nation.
5. Failing to protect our borders and, unlike the previous administrations, going after the states that dare to do the federal government's job.
6. The FCC and the Homeland Security Secretary deciding to move forward with Internet controls and monitoring.

I could go on but I'm sure that some will add others to the list. So I ask again is this the change that you voted for? I'm assuming you voted...
I would really like to know without the snarky, belittling, and usually self-demeaning comments. In fact I'm sure that many of the more conservative people would like to know.

[dirty dog]

John, I think part of the problem is they have not had a chance to experience the learning curve yet of modern day politics. See this is the first time they are experiencing harsh negative critisism, most of which is unwarrented in reality directed towards the President they chose for the sole purpose of preparing for the next election. Usually they are the group doing the complaining. See the Republicans experienced it for 8 years under Bush. I actually think its funny as hell, to see how they respond to the same crap conservatives have had to listen to for the past 8 years, how it pisses them off almost to a rabid state. I think this is a new phenominum, it was gleemed by the mad professor of the Democratic national committee, Mr Dean. The Republicans contrary to what many Democrats think are not stupid, they saw how well it worked and Steele is using the same formula to attack them back. They should stop being mad and actually should feel a since of pride that their own battleplan is being used against them and will beat them in 2010 and 2012. I love this shit, as an Independent I can sit back and what the stupidity in action and not get the least bit stressed because I dont have a dog in this hunt.

Sorry I know this was a little off topic and I am not attempting to hijack the thread.

[N2SEX46]

I was a frequent critic of Bush when he spent his way into oblivion, and like you and our fellow conservatives, we said so. Regarding the borders, Bush, McCain, Kyl, Clinton, Schumer, Martinez, (Sen.) Obama, Coleman and goodness knows how many others pushed hard using their political muscle to pass the 2007 Comprehensive Immigration Reform bill, which was nothing more than to give another amnesty (would have been the eighth or ninth one since 1986) from 12 to 25 million illegals demanding "their rights".
Many of my fellow conservatives were sick and tired of Bush, so they opted for the audacity of hope. That hope was to bring home the troops, work on jobs, stop sending jobs overseas, make Corporate America pay their fair share, take better care of the middle class, health care (such as it is, he got it passed), stop the corruption, reign in lobbyists, do away with NCLB, repeal the tax breaks for the rich, etc. This administration is just about all wind. Nothing really has really been done to change things, nothing has changed in Washington D. C., IT'S BUSINESS/POLITICS as usual. The party out of power griping and belly aching. The GOP and the Dems are one the same. Both are bought and paid for by big business and special interst, and more pork so the representatives and senators can get reelected. Audacity of Hope, Compassionate Conservatives: Both are a contradictions and empty in their meaning. Also in response to the president who claimed to be a decider, the same guy campaigned that he was a uniter not a divider. As long as the Congress (Democrats) gave him the $Trillion tax breaks for the rich, broke the Treasury with $600.00 to each family and all that other things the 1% rich demanded, things were all right and "Yes" he was a uniter. However, when the people said, ""Hey, enough is enough!" and he didn't get his way, Mr. Bush was no longer a uniter. History repeats itself in Mr. Obama in his Audacity for Hope. Change? I haven't seen a whole lot of change either, just Washington as usual. Now Moran and Thiart want to be the next senator, two idiots who were in office who got us into the mess we're in. Dennis Moore's wife wants to step in and be the next third district congresswoman, I suppose so Dennis can join a big lobby firm on K Street. And, Brownback wants to be our next governor, bringing in his Washington mentality to help the Koch Brothers in Wichita and other Kansas multi-billionaires get richer. Will he bring jobs to Kansas? Not likely. So, John_Galt there you have it. Why do we keep sending these self serving jerks back to represent us? Wish I had an answer, but basically it seems I agree mostly with your thesis. Am I wrong?

[FWfisherman]

Worst...ever

[Bartman1963]

No.

What you listed is not what I voted for.

Did you get what you wanted from GW? Were the things he did satisfactory to you as a conservative? You've already said no, and asked not to talk about it. Sure, that's fair...oh wait, no it isn't.

For everything you have asked above, I could ask three questions in the same area. One about Reagan, the next two about the sequential Bushes.

The question to me is this: Is ideology more important than pragmatism and flexibility?

Conservatives have yet to tell us how they would solve the economic crisis other than to say "less government". "Less taxes".

You want lower budget deficits? End the wars. Let the Bush tax cuts expire, or end them now. Do real medical insurance reform (Medicare for everyone!). But those things are non starters, so they will never even see the light of day. Not because of Liberals, but because of Conservatives.

DD you said "See this is the first time they are experiencing harsh negative critisism". Unless you count what was said about Clinton; in fact you can go back as far as Carter, LBJ, Kennedy, Truman, FDR, Wilson and every other progressive or liberal ever elected. I could go on and on and on about the nasty things said historically about these men by conservatives.

There is a whole network of "News", some would say propaganda, that began as a response to the mere election of Clinton. So it's not the first time we liberals have been forced to endure conservatives going absolutely nuts, running around the woods with assault rifles and fatigues acting like kids playing army. Carrying loaded weapons to the new Presidents speeches, shouting people down at town hall meetings.

Or taking the words and works of Rush Limbaugh, G Gordon Liddy, Glenn Beck, Tucker Carlson, Ann Coulter, Fox and Friends, Fox News, Pat Buchanan a multitude of AM Radio hacks and the whole cottage industry of liars like their words are the word of God. You want to have words put in your mouth? Try listening to any of that breed of entertainer if you are a liberal. It's enough to make you vomit.

Conservatives want to make changes? It takes two sides, with conversation, cooperation and contribution instead of vitriol, accusation and false piousness.

Stopping outrageous crap like calling people UN-AMERICAN (see previous threads) would be a nice start.

[dirty dog]

Bart relax, dont have a stroke over it.

Yes there complaints about other presidents, no doubt, but it was not until the 2008 election that it was formally organized as part of a campaing tactic. Dean did that and now it is being done back to you. I fell that in both cases, its a stupid tactic but it is the tactic that was used in 08 and will be used until 2012. The is just the quality of politics in american today. Of course this is just my opinion and it may differ from others.

I will just say one more thing and then I am out. All the things you listed, the people and media outlets, the same could be said about CNN, MSNBC, Chris Matthews, Keith Oberman, Alan Combs, and a slew of liberal media personalities.

[Guest052813-01]

Bart - the Bush tax cuts will expire at the end of this year. And you will see the greatest amount of economic activity between now and Dec. 31 that will see an extremely robust period of economic growth. Why? Because very smart people will take profits from the sale of stocks, bonds, 401K plans as well as accounting practices that will allow profits to be claimed in 2010 that may be due in 2011 and beyond. They will take advantage of the captial gains tax rate of 15% now rather than the new rate of 30% in 2011. They will take advantage of the highest personal income rate of 35% in 2010 rather than a rate of 39.5% in 2011. Then watch as the second part of a double-dip recession taxes place that will be much worse than the recession in 2009/10.

If you want receipts to the treasury to increase (that is, more money from tax receipts and economic activity) - lower tax rates. It's succeeded every time it's been tried. That's the "less taxes" part.

As far as "less government" - take the shackles of private companies that impede their ability to grow and flourish. Part of this is lowering tax rates so that profits can be reinvested in the business rather than given to the government. Not every business owner pockets their profits, as 97% of business owners are self-owned or small businesses, but tries to grow their business and reach a larger segment of their population. The other part is reducing regulations and restrictions on business so that it makes growing and running a business simpler. Not interfering with how businesses operate. This includes removing these so-called restrictions on the financial industry that the Bamster wants to enact - these are unneccesary. And no cradle-to-grave programs, especially medical insurance reform - this is also unneccesary and damaging to what this country stands for. Thank God this is the fault of Conservatives, and I applaud them for doing so.

Ending the wars is a noble idea - but ending them before victory is achieved would be more harmful to this country than stopping them now. It would make our country weak in the eyes of the world and would put this country in more danger than before 9/11 (notice how many terrorist attacks have happened since 9/11?). We fight the wars there so we don't fight them here. And before you ask - I don't know what victory is in Afghanistan - it has never been defined clearly.

And it does take two sides of cooperation - but compromise does not mean abandoning your core principles because the other side won - and that goes for both sides. And if one side wins, implements their changes to the objections of not only the other side but to the objections of the American people, then it is the responsibility of the American people to throw out that government and install a government that does what the American people want. That's why there are elections every two years for every seat in the House - to respond to the whims of the American people.

And before you start labeling all of these conservative commentators as liars, please illustrate specifically what they have said that is a lie? To disagree with ones political opinion may make you vomit (as every word the Bamster speaks should be used in place of ipecac syrup), but it is not lying. More often than not, each of these opinionists have taken exact quotations from the Bamster and the jar of Mayonnaise that is his vice president and their cronies in the regime and outlined their statements of questionable truthfulness.

Fuck you, Obama.

[Cheaper2buyit]

conservs are bull shiters its so easy to say less taxes & protect corps but who here owns a big corp small gov is bull shit tell all the tea party repubs to forgo their pay then they are true consers other wise stop that cring bull shit

[Guest090920]

Everyone in the media and everyone on both sides of the aisle in congress are to blame. That is why I have been preaching that in November and future elections, we, the voters send all current members of the U S House of Representatives and the U S Senate home to find real jobs like the rest of us. Party affiliation doesn't matter, tenure in congress doesn't matter, age doesn't matter, nothing matters but sending them home. Those 535 people are the problem and have been for 50 years.

[Bartman1963]

DD I'm quite calm. Feeling good in fact.

As to the changes of 2008 election, yes. Lots of changes there. Howard Dean style vs The Acolytes of Atwater. Dean style won out that time.

Dean style isn't being used against us, Atwater style still is. Atwater style hasn't changed anymore than conservative ideas on the economy have:

1. Attack the fringe of a policy with half truths and distortions (such as "death panels").
2. Distract with a completely irrelevant story, (like Gay Marriage).
3. Lie about the character of the other side or the Candidate (he has a biological daughter who's black was used on McCain by GW, or more famously Swift boating).
a. Have 1-3 spread by the media, who just eat that kind of stuff up, and if MSM doesn't take the bait, hit all three as hard and fast as you can with FOX, the AM radio crowd, the Washington Times and the New York Post.
4. Do what you can to keep minorities from voting (ID requirements, policemen at polling stations are just two examples).

Fritz, man, I keep trying to argue reasonably with you, but every time you start out with a reasoned argument, you end up going back to the offensive.

I will admit to trying to be funny at your expense, but "Fuck you Obama", is no way to make your point. It just makes me smile, knowing that my side has you foaming at the mouth. I know you do want to be taken seriously, and you have serious political ideas. But when you write things like that, it makes me just think "why should I waste my time reading his stuff?"

Now I have been guilty of using off color language, and being very disrespectful. Especially once earlier this year. I was wrong to do that. And I still have to catch myself, it's easier to be out of control.

If you want to continue to be read by people other than those that agree with you, you will have to stop saying things like "Fuck you Obama". It doesn't matter to me, but I think it might to you.

[BiggestBest]

Originally Posted by scorpio31

Everyone in the media and everyone on both sides of the aisle in congress are to blame. That is why I have been preaching that in November and future elections, we, the voters send all current members of the U S House of Representatives and the U S Senate home to find real jobs like the rest of us. Party affiliation doesn't matter, tenure in congress doesn't matter, age doesn't matter, nothing matters but sending them home. Those 535 people are the problem and have been for 50 years.

It is easy to jump on the "throw the bums out" bandwagon.

The question is who are you going to put in their place?

[dirty dog]

"1. Attack the fringe of a policy with half truths and distortions (such as "death panels").
2. Distract with a completely irrelevant story, (like Gay Marriage).
3. Lie about the character of the other side or the Candidate (he has a biological daughter who's black was used on McCain by GW, or more famously Swift boating).
a. Have 1-3 spread by the media, who just eat that kind of stuff up, and if MSM doesn't take the bait, hit all three as hard and fast as you can with FOX, the AM radio crowd, the Washington Times and the New York Post.
4. Do what you can to keep minorities from voting (ID requirements, policemen at polling stations are just two examples)."

Well Bart we might have to disagree to disagree because what you list is what I see in the Dean style

1. Attack the fringe of a policy with half truths and distortions (No WMD, when Biological and chemical weapons were found, just no nukes).

2. Distract with a completely irrelevant story, (to many to even mention).
3. Lie about the character of the other side or the Candidate (Bush is stupid, yeah I know, ask Harvard how many degrees they give away, swift boating was as fair as Kerry attacking Bush's military record).
a. Have 1-3 spread by the media, who just eat that kind of stuff up, and if CNN doesn't take the bait, hit all three as hard and fast as you can with MSNBC, the AM radio crowd, the New york times, Huffington Post.
4. Do what you can to intimidate old white folks from voting (ID requirements, Black Pather members at polling stations are just two examples).

Cheaper your out of line, you can't include all conservatives in your statement, first its patently no true and second its offensive to many members of this board, myself included that like you. Besides dude, your comments were exceptionally odd tonight, might want to check your meds.

Fellas, the bottom line is Liberals can hurl their insults, Conservatives can hurl theirs, nothing gets done and its business as usual in washinton. If you want to see 60 percent of your pay go to some form of tax for services that most of you will never use thats your business. I work 70 hours a week, I am not a greedy person, but I do tire of paying for others to ride the bus.

[Guest090920]

Originally Posted by BiggestBest

It is easy to jump on the "throw the bums out" bandwagon.

The question is who are you going to put in their place?

Qualified candidates that have no history of owing some lobbying group, and certainly not you!

[Bartman1963]

DD I like what I said previously so much I will repeat part of it:

It takes two sides, with conversation, cooperation and contribution instead of vitriol, accusation and false piousness.

To partially quote Gunnery Sgt Tom Highway from Heartbreak Ridge " this doesn't mean we'll be taking warm showers together until the wee hours of the morning." LOL

[Cheaper2buyit]

the thing is dirty you & everybody else wants to keep calling me a lib thats what makes me mad if nothing else I am a indy i make enough money & am happy that really left or right don't really bother me what ever they do in dc wont change what I make or what I do.