Papers

[charlestudor2005]

The thread on 5,000 non-citizens voting (found here) made me start this one.

Question: Do you think uniform papers confirming residency, domicile and citizenship (ala Nazi Germany) should be issued by the US government?

The issue in the thread mentioned in the first paragraph was all about voting. But each state has its own voting laws peculiar to that state. So discrepancies do exist.

Some of the collateral questions are:

• Do you think voting should be open to only US citizens? What about those people who are here legally? Do they get a say in their communities?
• Who should control any ID? The feds have issued mandates, which the states have objected to based on the cost. Should states continue to issued IDs, or should it revert to the feds?
• Who should control citizenship issues: feds or states? This should be an easy question for those that want smaller govt.

If you think of others, feel free to ask, as well as, answer these and others.

[atlcomedy]

1) Only legal citizens of the district should be able to vote. This includes US Citizens with multiple addresses/registrations. There are other ways to have a say in your community than voting, but voting should be reserved for the local citizenry.

2) I do favor some form of a national ID administered by the Federal Governement. It should have appropriate security features. Different classifications should be available to citizens and long term guests alike. It should not be mandatory, though. This way you get around all the States rights/constitutionality/big brother issues. It simply is an ID of convenience. If you don't want one you can cobble together whatever State ID you want to.

[EJunkie]

Two things come to mind.


First, from a practical standpoint, do you want a society where you always have your “papers” with you? When you are out for a walk, running a marathon, swimming at the lake, etc? Lots of times I’m carrying no ID day to day.


Second is given the differences state to state, what is the universal national ID, a passport? If you made passports free and mandatory would that work?

[NinaBrooke]

In Europe this is standard procedure and has nothing to do with Nazi Germany. You are required to have papers with you at all times, if you don`t you are allowed to be held by the police until you are able to proof who you are (or even driven home by police).
Even though within the EU no passports are required, we need proof of identification and controlls frequently occur.
We also require proof of domicile, which is something that is not happening in the USA.

I think it is not such a bad idea, and i think the patriot act has contributed a lot towards it.
I think its good because it makes it easier to catch criminals. For example the torturer of my girlfriend was caught by a so called "routine control" . His name and data was on the interpol. They do not actively search people but they randomly find them with such controls. He was stupid enough to cross the boarder from germany to switzerland having a warrant for his arrest. A routine control is something where they control your papers. Can happen at airports, trains, highways, when you cross boarders.

It can also happen in a racist way, for example i know for fact that my female collegues who are black heritage get "routine controlled" way more often than for example i do. It has pros and cons. :-). My friend who is from London frequently gets asked "where she is from" and when she answers "UK" then she gets asked "NO , we meant where are you ORIGINALLY from" (Implying because she is black she MUST be from africa , of course) , where she answers much to everybody`s delight "I am originally from my mother`s womb" :-))))))

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by ninasastri

It can also happen in a racist way, for example i know for fact that my female collegues who are black heritage get "routine controlled" way more often than for example i do. It has pros and cons. :-). My friend who is from London frequently gets asked "where she is from" and when she answers "UK" then she gets asked "NO , we meant where are you ORIGINALLY from" (Implying because she is black she MUST be from africa , of course) , where she answers much to everybody`s delight "I am originally from my mother`s womb" :-))))))

I don't support "random controls" & folks should still be able to walk around without identification (assuming they don't plan to engage in any activity that requires an id), but one advantage of a voluntary ID program is if you don't like being stopped for "walking with brown skin," etc. and have nothing to hide, why not carry a card that quickly identifies you?

Oh, and while we are at it: you establish your id via a fingerprint match or similar marker. Photos on driver's licenses and passports are a joke.

[Iaintliein]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

I don't support "random controls" & folks should still be able to walk around without identification (assuming they don't plan to engage in any activity that requires an id), but one advantage of a voluntary ID program is if you don't like being stopped for "walking with brown skin," etc. and have nothing to hide, why not carry a card that quickly identifies you?

Oh, and while we are at it: you establish your id via a fingerprint match or similar marker. Photos on driver's licenses and passports are a joke.

Technically, in my town at least, and probably yours, it's already illegal to walk around without identification.

Keeping illegal aliens from voting has nothing to do with Straw Men goose stepping into the discussion ala Nazi Germany. . . that's a real reach, and fell well short.

Actually, the whole "Nazi Germany" meme is pretty interesting to bring up at a time when a politician running for American office talks about the need for massive, well armed civilian "security forces", has followers who interject race into absolutely every issue, and makes a speech before Greco-Roman columns in a packed German sports arena. And, once, elected, goes to war without consulting Congress.

Hummmmm.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

Oh, and while we are at it: you establish your id via a fingerprint match or similar marker. Photos on driver's licenses and passports are a joke.

No chit, 24 Hour fitness has this ID system.

The problem with allot of this is that the poorer and less educated the more likely you will not go through the means to get the proper ID to vote. Well some see this as a problem, other love this fact.

[Naomi4u]

Deleted.

What Nina said.

[Iaintliein]

Originally Posted by WTF

No chit, 24 Hour fitness has this ID system.

The problem with allot of this is that the poorer and less educated the more likely you will not go through the means to get the proper ID to vote. Well some see this as a problem, other love this fact.

While others appear to love making sure absentee ballots never quiet make it in time from deployed military. . . despite the relative wealth and education of the government bureaucrats in charge.

There's no way to prove it, and I'm too cheap to bet, but my thought is more service men and women who actually wanted to vote have been disenfranchised over the last decade or two than the "poor and uneducated" who may or may not have actually wanted to.

[NinaBrooke]

as to voting, i think only citizens should be allowed to. I am not sure if permanent residents have the requirements as well?

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Iaintliein

While others appear to love making sure absentee ballots never quiet make it in time from deployed military. . . despite the relative wealth and education of the government bureaucrats in charge.

There's no way to prove it, and I'm too cheap to bet, but my thought is more service men and women who actually wanted to vote have been disenfranchised over the last decade or two than the "poor and uneducated" who may or may not have actually wanted to.

You are correct , we will never solve that riddle.

We can agree though that each party tries to disenfranchise the other parties voters though bogus tactics.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by ninasastri

as to voting, i think only citizens should be allowed to. I am not sure if permanent residents have the requirements as well?

The problem we have in this country is if a miniscule amount of voter fraud is actually going on do you spend billions of dollars*** in a move that will in fact disenfranchise ten of thousand of voters for only one side. A closer look at the actual 'problem' shows that there is really no problem of massive voter fraud. It would be like putting a device in every car because some folks drive drunk. The question , at least in my mind, is is the cost actually worth it.

Personally I think all in this country should be able to vote at least once!


*** ironically the folks that scream about smaller government are the ones for expansions of this type of government

[Naomi4u]

Originally Posted by WTF

The problem we have in this country is if a miniscule amount of voter fraud is actually going on do you spend billions of dollars in a move that will in fact disenfranchise ten of thousand of voters for only one side. A closer look at the actual 'problem' shows that there is really no problem of massive voter fraud. It would be like putting a device in every car because some folks drive drunk. The question , at least in my mind, is is the cost actually worth it.

Personally I think all in this country should be able to vote at least once!

[davidsmith0123]

Why papers? We can tatoo a scanner image on your wrist. Or implant a chip in your body like we do for dogs and cats. Maybe include GPS capabilities so it is even easier to find you.

Modern technology makes it look like George Orwell lacked imagination.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by davidsmith0123

Why papers? We can tatoo a scanner image on your wrist. Or implant a chip in your body like we do for dogs and cats. Maybe include GPS capabilities so it is even easier to find you.

Modern technology makes it look like George Orwell lacked imagination.

Yea , I don't know why these card carrying folks want to stop at just a passport.....lets put chips in everyone and follow them around for their whole lives. Boy wouldn't that give the people in charge some real power!