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Old 08-30-2013, 10:17 AM   #1
Stan.Dupp
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Default Police use Taser on 95 year old man in retirement home, then use bean bag round to his gut, which killed him.

Link to article Chicago Tribune



Kass: Was police killing of 95-year-old necessary?
Common sense tells me that cops don't need a Taser or a shotgun to subdue a 95-year-old man.

August 02, 2013|John Kass
John Wrana and his wife, Helen in 2005. Helen died in 2005.

When John Wrana was a young man, fit and strong and fighting in World War II with the U.S. Army Air Corps, did he ever think he'd end this way?

Just a few weeks shy of his 96th birthday, in need of a walker to move about, cops coming through the door of his retirement home with a Taser and a shotgun.

The old man, described by a family member as "wobbly" on his feet, had refused medical attention. The paramedics were called. They brought in the Park Forest police.

First they tased him, but that didn't work. So they fired a shotgun, hitting him in the stomach with a bean-bag round. Wrana was struck with such force that he bled to death internally, according to the Cook County medical examiner.

"The Japanese military couldn't get him at the age he was touchable, in a uniform in the war. It took 70 years later for the Park Forest police to do the job," Wrana's family attorney, Nicholas Grapsas, a former prosecutor, said in an interview with me Thursday.

Wrana's family wants answers. The Illinois State Police are investigating the horrific incident but won't comment, and neither will the Park Forest police pending the outcome of the inquiry.

I wasn't at the scene, and maybe the police have a good explanation. But common sense tells me that cops don't need a Taser or a shotgun to subdue a 95-year-old man.

And after doing some digging, I found there are two versions of events: The police version, and a new picture that raises questions of whether John Wrana was killed unnecessarily.

The Park Forest police version is that on the night of July 26, John Wrana, a resident of the Victory Centre senior living facility, threatened staff and paramedics with a 2-foot-long metal shoehorn and a metal cane. The police statement neglects to mention that the old man also used a walker, at least according to photographs supplied by Grapsas.

"Attempts were made verbally to have the resident comply with demands to drop the articles, to no avail," the police statement reads. "The resident then armed himself with a 12-inch butcher type kitchen knife."

But lawyer Grapsas says that Wrana's family never saw a knife in his room and that staff also told him Wrana didn't have such a knife.

"So where did the knife come from?" Grapsas asked.

The police statement leaves the impression that the staff was under threat, leaving police with no choice other than to shoot him.


But according to Maria Oliva, an executive with Pathway Senior Living, the staff was kept out of the room after police arrived. So there was no imminent threat to staff.

"The staff was not inside once the police were on the scene," Oliva told us. "At different times the staff were in there, but not when they were called. They (the police) were in charge at that point."

Police said there had been threats made against the staff. But Grapsas said he was told that staff begged to be allowed to try to calm down the old man.

"If there were threats to the staff, why did the staff want to intervene and say, 'Let us handle this; we'll get him calmed down'?" he asked.

Grapsas says he was told that police used a riot shield to come through the door before shooting bean-bag rounds at the old man as he sat in his chair.

Riot shields are used to push back mobs of angry young protesters in the streets, or against dangerous convicts in prison cells, not to subdue an old, old man in a chair.

"At some point, I'm told there were between five and seven police officers, they went back to the room with a riot shield in hand, entered the door and shot him with a shotgun that contained bean-bag rounds," Grapsas said.

If this is true and police had a riot shield, why on earth would they need a shotgun?

Most veteran cops I talked to suspect this is a case of unnecessary force. I've never met a police officer who couldn't handle a 95-year-old man in a walker. And John Wrana wasn't Jason Bourne. He was an old war veteran who didn't want to be pushed around.

But one senior police official who has trained police recruits in defensive tactics had a different take.

"When I first heard it, I was like, 'C'mon,'" he said. "Then I thought it through. We don't know what occurred. We don't know what information they had at that time. If you don't have all of the facts, it's hard to judge someone. … Anyone can be dangerous."

Sharon Mangerson, 74, doesn't see her stepfather as dangerous.

Wrana and Mangerson's mother, Helen, were married for more than 30 years. Helen died in 2005. So Wrana lived with Mangerson in the south suburbs until his health — and her health — began to fail.

She said he was a fiercely independent member of the greatest generation, honorably discharged as a sergeant after serving in India and Burma during the war.

"He was a very vital 95-year-old, let me tell you. He still played cards. He taught the 70-year-olds how to play gin rummy," she said in an interview. "I used to admire him so much because he was able to keep doing those type of things. As independent as they come, trust me."

On the night of the incident, he wound up at Advocate Christ Medical Center. The doctor was on the phone with Mangerson, telling her that even if Wrana survived surgery, he'd likely be on life support. Wrana wanted to talk to her. The doctor held the phone up to his ear, she said.

"He just said, 'Thank you for everything you've done for me. I love you and goodbye,'" Mangerson recalled, her voice cracking. "That was it."

Will the family ever get an explanation?

"I want answers," she said. "I want someone held accountable."
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Old 08-30-2013, 11:10 AM   #2
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I hope those thugs are proud of themselves and sleep well each night.
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Old 08-30-2013, 11:29 AM   #3
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I have no proof, but rumor has it one of the responders was named Zimmerman.
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Old 08-30-2013, 11:29 AM   #4
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And this is political news because?
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Old 08-30-2013, 12:34 PM   #5
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I consider it political because it is becoming apparent that many police departments around the country are acting in a more heavy handed way despite new technology to get away from mortal wounding. These departments always find an excuse after a "thorough" investigation. Wrong house, not our fault. Dead animals, it was necessary. Shoot the wrong person, what do you want, 90% accuracy? Abuse suspects, what, me worry?
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:56 PM   #6
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I consider it political because it is becoming apparent that many police departments around the country are acting in a more heavy handed way despite new technology to get away from mortal wounding. These departments always find an excuse after a "thorough" investigation. Wrong house, not our fault. Dead animals, it was necessary. Shoot the wrong person, what do you want, 90% accuracy? Abuse suspects, what, me worry?
I actually agree with JD for once...
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:12 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn View Post
I consider it political because it is becoming apparent that many police departments around the country are acting in a more heavy handed way despite new technology to get away from mortal wounding. These departments always find an excuse after a "thorough" investigation. Wrong house, not our fault. Dead animals, it was necessary. Shoot the wrong person, what do you want, 90% accuracy? Abuse suspects, what, me worry?
exactly ....as long as there's no witnesses or video footage, they did nothing wrong.
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Old 08-30-2013, 03:53 PM   #8
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And this is political news because?
Because police enforcement of our laws is a political topic and abuse of citizens by out-of-control police officers is very much a political topic.

If you need to play catchup - and you DO - do a web search for the journalist "Radley Balko" and read from his extensive body of articles on this subject. Especially what he has written about SWAT teams.

http://www.theagitator.com/

http://www.theagitator.com/publications/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1279983.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1446841.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/radley...b_1123848.html
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Old 08-30-2013, 04:49 PM   #9
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My grand dad use to whack me with a cane when I was a wee lad, friggen hurt!
I'm sure the cops feared for their very lives and it was justifiable!
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Old 08-30-2013, 04:49 PM   #10
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Because police enforcement of our laws is a political topic and abuse of citizens by out-of-control police officers is very much a political topic.

If you need to play catchup - and you DO - do a web search for the journalist "Radley Balko" and read from his extensive body of articles on this subject. Especially what he has written about SWAT teams.

http://www.theagitator.com/

http://www.theagitator.com/publications/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1279983.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1446841.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/radley...b_1123848.html

Hey thanks for the links! I had not seen all of those. Very eye opening.. and very concerning. The question now becomes, how do we dial back this ramped up "militarization" of our police forces in this country?
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Old 08-30-2013, 06:00 PM   #11
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Hey thanks for the links! I had not seen all of those. Very eye opening.. and very concerning. The question now becomes, how do we dial back this ramped up "militarization" of our police forces in this country?
Step ONE - Declare victory in the war on drugs and legalize or at least decriminalize most of them. Let pot, ecstasy, mushrooms, acid, coke, and a few other drugs be produced and sold legally in regulated concentrations and let folks get high on domestically produced drugs. Put drug dealers out of business. That will eliminate a shitload of crimes, particularly gun crimes.

The cops won't have cause to arrest so many people and the ones they DO arrest will be far less likely to be armed.

TWO - cut off federal money to buy armored vehicles. That's how small hick towns are getting tanks to begin with. If Sherman, TX wants a military type tank, let them use their own money.

THREE - Shit can the civil forfeiture laws - although they will probably be much less useful anyway once drugs are legalized.

FOUR - eliminate for-profit prisons. That is nothing but a source of corruption.
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Old 08-30-2013, 08:34 PM   #12
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Step ONE - Declare victory in the war on drugs and legalize or at least decriminalize most of them. Let pot, ecstasy, mushrooms, acid, coke, and a few other drugs be produced and sold legally in regulated concentrations and let folks get high on domestically produced drugs. Put drug dealers out of business. That will eliminate a shitload of crimes, particularly gun crimes.

The cops won't have cause to arrest so many people and the ones they DO arrest will be far less likely to be armed.

TWO - cut off federal money to buy armored vehicles. That's how small hick towns are getting tanks to begin with. If Sherman, TX wants a military type tank, let them use their own money.

THREE - Shit can the civil forfeiture laws - although they will probably be much less useful anyway once drugs are legalized.

FOUR - eliminate for-profit prisons. That is nothing but a source of corruption.
Man I totally agree with most of what you posted. I read an article about civil forfeiture laws and how they have really gotten out of hand and abusive, and just down right stealing from innocent people these days.

Here is the article from the New Yorker news site on it: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2..._fact_stillman

Quoted from the article: The basic principle behind asset forfeiture is appealing. It enables authorities to confiscate cash or property obtained through illicit means, and, in many states, funnel the proceeds directly into the fight against crime. In Tulsa, Oklahoma, cops drive a Cadillac Escalade stencilled with the words “this used to be a drug dealer’s car, now it’s ours!” In Monroe, North Carolina, police recently proposed using forty-four thousand dollars in confiscated drug money to buy a surveillance drone, which might be deployed to catch fleeing suspects, conduct rescue missions, and, perhaps, seize more drug money. Hundreds of state and federal laws authorize forfeiture for cockfighting, drag racing, basement gambling, endangered-fish poaching, securities fraud, and countless other misdeeds.

In general, you needn’t be found guilty to have your assets claimed by law enforcement; in some states, suspicion on a par with “probable cause” is sufficient. Nor must you be charged with a crime, or even be accused of one. Unlike criminal forfeiture, which requires that a person be convicted of an offense before his or her property is confiscated, civil forfeiture amounts to a lawsuit filed directly against a possession, regardless of its owner’s guilt or innocence.
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Old 08-30-2013, 08:38 PM   #13
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Step ONE - Declare victory in the war on drugs and legalize or at least decriminalize most of them. Let pot, ecstasy, mushrooms, acid, coke, and a few other drugs be produced and sold legally in regulated concentrations and let folks get high on domestically produced drugs. Put drug dealers out of business. That will eliminate a shitload of crimes, particularly gun crimes.

The cops won't have cause to arrest so many people and the ones they DO arrest will be far less likely to be armed.

TWO - cut off federal money to buy armored vehicles. That's how small hick towns are getting tanks to begin with. If Sherman, TX wants a military type tank, let them use their own money.

THREE - Shit can the civil forfeiture laws - although they will probably be much less useful anyway once drugs are legalized.

FOUR - eliminate for-profit prisons. That is nothing but a source of corruption.


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Old 08-30-2013, 11:08 PM   #14
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Amazing but true: something we essentially all agree on.

Maybe the there is hope for congress after all.
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:06 AM   #15
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Man I totally agree with most of what you posted. I read an article about civil forfeiture laws and how they have really gotten out of hand and abusive, and just down right stealing from innocent people these days.

Here is the article from the New Yorker news site on it: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2..._fact_stillman

Quoted from the article: The basic principle behind asset forfeiture is appealing. It enables authorities to confiscate cash or property obtained through illicit means, and, in many states, funnel the proceeds directly into the fight against crime. In Tulsa, Oklahoma, cops drive a Cadillac Escalade stencilled with the words “this used to be a drug dealer’s car, now it’s ours!” In Monroe, North Carolina, police recently proposed using forty-four thousand dollars in confiscated drug money to buy a surveillance drone, which might be deployed to catch fleeing suspects, conduct rescue missions, and, perhaps, seize more drug money. Hundreds of state and federal laws authorize forfeiture for cockfighting, drag racing, basement gambling, endangered-fish poaching, securities fraud, and countless other misdeeds.

In general, you needn’t be found guilty to have your assets claimed by law enforcement; in some states, suspicion on a par with “probable cause” is sufficient. Nor must you be charged with a crime, or even be accused of one. Unlike criminal forfeiture, which requires that a person be convicted of an offense before his or her property is confiscated, civil forfeiture amounts to a lawsuit filed directly against a possession, regardless of its owner’s guilt or innocence.
This has been going on for two decades. The problem is there is no real standard as to who gets their possessions seized. Its up to the discretion of some DA, judge or law enforcement officer. Good luck trying to get your stuff back.

About 20 years or so ago there was a TV news show about a elderly couple who had their house seized by a female DEA agent of some sort. The elderly couple had paid for their house over the years but something shady with the couple's daughter's boyfriend got their house seized. They were fighting for the house and had the community on their side but it was apparent they weren't getting their house back. The daughter and the couple weren't even charged with a crime.

Here's the kicker: the female DEA agent's son was busted for selling weed out of her house. Of course, her house wasn't seized.

One thing I remember about the show was that the Federal government had the authority to seize every cruise ship that docked into a US port because they all contained illegal drugs or drug residue and knowingly transported it...but somehow the Feds declined.
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