2012 Prediction #2: US will continue to tilt in favor of Muslim Militancy

[theaustinescorts]

The elections in Egypt have had their inevitable outcome - the Muslim Brotherhood and other pro-militant/Islamist groups have won.

In Lybia the US chose to ally itself from the virtual beginning with pro-militant groups, this given that they would have won eventually anyway and the Europeans would have gained all the spoils.

In Tunisia it's largely the same.

In Afghanistan the only way out lies in negotiations and some inclusion with the Taliban.

In Pakistan the US has had to reach the realization that it will never be anything other than a pro-militant/Islamist state, and there's nothing we can ever do to change that.

The US has no choice in many growing circumstances than to seek to negotiate and co-exist with Islamic mililtants when they come to power through democratic means.*

In the Persian Gulf, such as in Bahrain, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia the US is still holding the line, as it's considered that those regimes are not as sure to collapse as those in north Africa were, but this could change.

It's normal in international politics for alliances to change, and for one's enemies to become one's allies, or visa versa.

Remember it was the Islamic militants in Pakistan and Afghanistan that the US was allied with in the 1980s, as the US was also allied with Saddam Hussein.

One inevitable outcome of this shift will be a decline in the US-Israeli strategic relationship on every level, and we are seeing this signaled in the harsh criticism CIA figures are now leveling on Israeli actions [which by the way have always gone on but are only now publicly criticized].

As more Arab countries adopt pro-Islamist governments opposed to the 1978 Camp David Accords it will no longer be possible to support Israeli resistance to land-for-peace agreements such as the last Geneva conference, rejected by Israel backed by the US. The first sign of Israeli's cracking will be when it finally agrees to cease further West Bank settlements. There are now over two hundred of them linked by highways, so there can never be any real relinquishment of the West Bank anyway. But an announcement to cease any more new ones [existing ones will just be expanded] will signal the change.

Approved CIA figures will continue to criticize Israel harshly in the media.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnH0dxdiRzc


*the reason why the US could not win the Vietnam conflict is because the vast majority of South Vietnamese favored the Vietcong [although only a few were suicidal enough to actually become fighters]. In the muslim world the vast majority of people favor militant Islam [as we define it]. As democracy spreads militant Islam will spread as well [for a time, maybe a generation or two].

All these developing societies have to go through their own stages. Progress cannot be forced.

[kingorpawn]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

The elections in Egypt have had their inevitable outcome - the Muslim Brotherhood and other pro-militant/Islamist groups have won.

In Lybia the US chose to ally itself from the virtual beginning with pro-militant groups, this given that they would have won eventually anyway and the Europeans would have gained all the spoils.

In Tunisia it's largely the same.

In Afghanistan the only way out lies in negotiations and some inclusion with the Taliban.

In Pakistan the US has had to reach the realization that it will never be anything other than a pro-militant/Islamist state, and there's nothing we can ever do to change that.

The US has no choice in many growing circumstances than to seek to negotiate and co-exist with Islamic mililtants when they come to power through democratic means.*

In the Persian Gulf, such as in Bahrain, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia the US is still holding the line, as it's considered that those regimes are not as sure to collapse as those in north Africa were, but this could change.

It's normal in international politics for alliances to change, and for one's enemies to become one's allies, or visa versa.

Remember it was the Islamic militants in Pakistan and Afghanistan that the US was allied with in the 1980s, as the US was also allied with Saddam Hussein.

One inevitable outcome of this shift will be a decline in the US-Israeli strategic relationship on every level, and we are seeing this signaled in the harsh criticism CIA figures are now leveling on Israeli actions [which by the way have always gone on but are only now publicly criticized].

As more Arab countries adopt pro-Islamist governments opposed to the 1978 Camp David Accords it will no longer be possible to support Israeli resistance to land-for-peace agreements such as the last Geneva conference, rejected by Israel backed by the US. The first sign of Israeli's cracking will be when it finally agrees to cease further West Bank settlements. There are now over two hundred of them linked by highways, so there can never be any real relinquishment of the West Bank anyway. But an announcement to cease any more new ones [existing ones will just be expanded] will signal the change.

Approved CIA figures will continue to criticize Israel harshly in the media.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnH0dxdiRzc


*the reason why the US could not win the Vietnam conflict is because the vast majority of South Vietnamese favored the Vietcong [although only a few were suicidal enough to actually become fighters]. In the muslim world the vast majority of people favor militant Islam [as we define it]. As democracy spreads militant Islam will spread as well [for a time, maybe a generation or two].

All these developing societies have to go through their own stages. Progress cannot be forced.

So what's your point? You are probably correct. Those countries will continue to be Muslim and eventually more dictators will take them over and the people will continue to be poor and they will create more terrorists and then we will go through the same cycle again. They will attack Israel and Israel will put them in their place. In case you haven't figured it out, the US plays both sides when it's in its best interest. The day the United States turns against Israel will also be the end of the United States. Read Ezekiel 39.

I don't think we ever intended to win the Vietnam war.

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by kingorpawn

I don't think we ever intended to win the Vietnam war.

Don't include me as being a "we!" I certainly did my part to win it!

[kingorpawn]

Originally Posted by bigtex

Don't include me as being a "we!" I certainly did my part to win it!

Correction. I meant the politicians. Not everyone of them, but a lot of them.
I have relatives and friends who were there.

[theaustinescorts]

Originally Posted by kingorpawn

The day the United States turns against Israel will also be the end of the United States. Read Ezekiel 39.

I don't think we ever intended to win the Vietnam War.

By "win" I of course mean to keep the communists from taking over South Vietnam. The reason why the US and Diem cancelled the election of 1956, as President Eisenhower said, was because US polls showed that 86% of the South Vietnamese intended to vote for the communists. As repression from Diem and his successors increased through the 1960s the population grew even more hateful of the South's governments and the US. Over enough time the increase in US/Saigon terror meant that there were fewer and fewer people willing to consign themselves to torture and death by belonging to the Vietcong infrastructure or become fighters. So those few that were willing to make that sacrifice were viewed by the populace as extreme, patriotic heros. For the level of US/Saigon terror to be maintained, and to continue to resist conventional attacks from the North, the US would need to have been there forever.

The US is not using terror in Afghanistan as it did in Vietnam, but the situation there will not improve without a political compromise with our adversaries.

btw if your views are based in religious conviction I do respect that, but it makes it difficult to argue with you rationally.

[kingorpawn]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

By "win" I of course mean to keep the communists from taking over South Vietnam. The reason why the US and Diem cancelled the election of 1956, as President Eisenhower said, was because US polls showed that 86% of the South Vietnamese intended to vote for the communists. As repression from Diem and his successors increased through the 1960s the population grew even more hateful of the South's governments and the US. Over enough time the increase in US/Saigon terror meant that there were fewer and fewer people willing to consign themselves to torture and death by belonging to the Vietcong infrastructure or become fighters. So those few that were willing to make that sacrifice were viewed by the populace as extreme, patriotic heros. For the level of US/Saigon terror to be maintained, and to continue to resist conventional attacks from the North, the US would need to have been there forever.

The US is not using terror in Afghanistan as it did in Vietnam, but the situation there will not improve without a political compromise with our adversaries.

btw if your views are based in religious conviction I do respect that, but it makes it difficult to argue with you rationally.

Thanks for the history lesson on the Vietnam War. My views are based on different factors, not necessarily religious conviction, but in reality which is something you refuse to accept. Unfortunately, you are blinded to the truth.

[theaustinescorts]

Originally Posted by kingorpawn

Thanks for the history lesson on the Vietnam War. My views are based on different factors, not necessarily religious conviction, but in reality which is something you refuse to accept. Unfortunately, you are blinded to the truth.

If you think the book of Ezekiel should guide US policy toward Israel, as you've stated, then that's fine.

Personally I do not believe in the Bible. I don't believe it's any source of truth about anything.

If your convictions are otherwise I respect that however, as long as it doesn't lead you to violence. Unfortunately I think it might if you favor Israel's occupation, which is pretty violent.

[kingorpawn]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

If you think the book of Ezekiel should guide US policy toward Israel, as you've stated, then that's fine.

Personally I do not believe in the Bible. I don't believe it's any source of truth about anything.

If your convictions are otherwise I respect that however, as long as it doesn't lead you to violence. Unfortunately I think it might if you favor Israel's occupation, which is pretty violent.

I don't consider myself a religious person. However, years ago I did do intensive study of biblical prophecy and I came to the conclusion that their is too much truth to it. Historical and current events, archaeological evidence validates the fact that Israel and a lot more belongs to the Jews. And I could go on and on, but you are already set in your ways, so I won't try to change it. In time, you will see the truth.

[ubernoob]

I'm forced to agree with The Austin Escorts...

Israel is in effect practicing ethnic cleansing of the golan heights, and the west bank.
They build settlements in captured lands, they bisect existing villages and towns with restrictive measure, 30ft high concrete walls, and they bulldoze the homes of the local residents. In effect, they've recreated the Warsaw Ghettos in the west bank.

And it really isn't a Judaic trampling on Islamic rights in Israel either. They'll just as happily bulldoze the homes of Christian Arabs, and Jewish Arabs as they will Muslim Arabs.. They are quite clearly about purging all arab influences from the West Bank, and the Golan heights.. They've already started purge operations in the Gaza strip, largely in the way of restricting food and water shipments.. in effect starving the population out.

It's really quite terrifying. It's like the stories of the abused child growing up to be an abuser.

In all of our affairs, the US strives towards one thing: The Status Quo. Stability. People are elected to office, in large part to keep things exactly as they are. To keep money and commerce flowing. We supported a militaristic dictatorship in Egypt for 30 years because it was stable, and didn't screw with it's neighbors. We've supported Israel for the same reason: Stability.

Never think that the US does anything for altruistic purposes. We're here to make money. Hell you could very easily argue that the US Civil war was fought not to free slaves, but to force southern farmers to buy Northern farming equipment.

However, to reacquire stability in the middle east is not to side with Militant Islam.
Militant Islam, in control of the goverment of a soveriegn state, with a stated goal to eliminate israel.. sounds pretty damn destabilizing to me. Unless Militant Islam can get a public face that it can rally behind.. Maybe someone like another Nasser, to reform the UAR.. That'd be nice and stable.. But the odds of another Nasser rising to the forefront of this is pretty damn slim.

And given the current state of affairs over their.. and current Israeli insanity concerning the cleaning operations in the captured Territories, I have no doubt that israel would throw down and pop a couple of tactical nuclear weapons.

I think above all the US would support more secular dictatorships/monarchies if anything. Saddam Hussein was a terrible guy, but he was stable.


Yes the Israelis should be appalled at what their government does in their name, but at this point they're all pretty much stuck in that pre 1937 german mindset of the palestinian is the source of all their woes.. "This country would be great if it weren't for all THOSE people'..

Israel is the devil we know. And the country as an entity is pretty damn rotten by the way. They stole plutonium from US research labs back in the 50s to make their own nukes.. We gave them patriot missile systems back in the 90s (the most advanced interceptor in the US arsenal at the time) to defend against Iraqi scuds.. and while the first gulf war was still going on.. they took some units and sold them to freaking CHINA.

[kingorpawn]

Originally Posted by ubernoob

I'm forced to agree with The Austin Escorts...

Israel is in effect practicing ethnic cleansing of the golan heights, and the west bank.
They build settlements in captured lands, they bisect existing villages and towns with restrictive measure, 30ft high concrete walls, and they bulldoze the homes of the local residents. In effect, they've recreated the Warsaw Ghettos in the west bank.

And it really isn't a Judaic trampling on Islamic rights in Israel either. They'll just as happily bulldoze the homes of Christian Arabs, and Jewish Arabs as they will Muslim Arabs.. They are quite clearly about purging all arab influences from the West Bank, and the Golan heights.. They've already started purge operations in the Gaza strip, largely in the way of restricting food and water shipments.. in effect starving the population out.

It's really quite terrifying. It's like the stories of the abused child growing up to be an abuser.

In all of our affairs, the US strives towards one thing: The Status Quo. Stability. People are elected to office, in large part to keep things exactly as they are. To keep money and commerce flowing. We supported a militaristic dictatorship in Egypt for 30 years because it was stable, and didn't screw with it's neighbors. We've supported Israel for the same reason: Stability.

Never think that the US does anything for altruistic purposes. We're here to make money. Hell you could very easily argue that the US Civil war was fought not to free slaves, but to force southern farmers to buy Northern farming equipment.

However, to reacquire stability in the middle east is not to side with Militant Islam.
Militant Islam, in control of the goverment of a soveriegn state, with a stated goal to eliminate israel.. sounds pretty damn destabilizing to me. Unless Militant Islam can get a public face that it can rally behind.. Maybe someone like another Nasser, to reform the UAR.. That'd be nice and stable.. But the odds of another Nasser rising to the forefront of this is pretty damn slim.

And given the current state of affairs over their.. and current Israeli insanity concerning the cleaning operations in the captured Territories, I have no doubt that israel would throw down and pop a couple of tactical nuclear weapons.

I think above all the US would support more secular dictatorships/monarchies if anything. Saddam Hussein was a terrible guy, but he was stable.


Yes the Israelis should be appalled at what their government does in their name, but at this point they're all pretty much stuck in that pre 1937 german mindset of the palestinian is the source of all their woes.. "This country would be great if it weren't for all THOSE people'..

Israel is the devil we know. And the country as an entity is pretty damn rotten by the way. They stole plutonium from US research labs back in the 50s to make their own nukes.. We gave them patriot missile systems back in the 90s (the most advanced interceptor in the US arsenal at the time) to defend against Iraqi scuds.. and while the first gulf war was still going on.. they took some units and sold them to freaking CHINA.

[eahand]

Originally Posted by ubernoob

I'm forced to agree with The Austin Escorts...

Israel is in effect practicing ethnic cleansing of the golan heights, and the west bank.
They build settlements in captured lands, they bisect existing villages and towns with restrictive measure, 30ft high concrete walls, and they bulldoze the homes of the local residents. In effect, they've recreated the Warsaw Ghettos in the west bank.

And it really isn't a Judaic trampling on Islamic rights in Israel either. They'll just as happily bulldoze the homes of Christian Arabs, and Jewish Arabs as they will Muslim Arabs.. They are quite clearly about purging all arab influences from the West Bank, and the Golan heights.. They've already started purge operations in the Gaza strip, largely in the way of restricting food and water shipments.. in effect starving the population out.

It's really quite terrifying. It's like the stories of the abused child growing up to be an abuser.

In all of our affairs, the US strives towards one thing: The Status Quo. Stability. People are elected to office, in large part to keep things exactly as they are. To keep money and commerce flowing. We supported a militaristic dictatorship in Egypt for 30 years because it was stable, and didn't screw with it's neighbors. We've supported Israel for the same reason: Stability.

Never think that the US does anything for altruistic purposes. We're here to make money. Hell you could very easily argue that the US Civil war was fought not to free slaves, but to force southern farmers to buy Northern farming equipment.

However, to reacquire stability in the middle east is not to side with Militant Islam.
Militant Islam, in control of the goverment of a soveriegn state, with a stated goal to eliminate israel.. sounds pretty damn destabilizing to me. Unless Militant Islam can get a public face that it can rally behind.. Maybe someone like another Nasser, to reform the UAR.. That'd be nice and stable.. But the odds of another Nasser rising to the forefront of this is pretty damn slim.

And given the current state of affairs over their.. and current Israeli insanity concerning the cleaning operations in the captured Territories, I have no doubt that israel would throw down and pop a couple of tactical nuclear weapons.

I think above all the US would support more secular dictatorships/monarchies if anything. Saddam Hussein was a terrible guy, but he was stable.


Yes the Israelis should be appalled at what their government does in their name, but at this point they're all pretty much stuck in that pre 1937 german mindset of the palestinian is the source of all their woes.. "This country would be great if it weren't for all THOSE people'..

Israel is the devil we know. And the country as an entity is pretty damn rotten by the way. They stole plutonium from US research labs back in the 50s to make their own nukes.. We gave them patriot missile systems back in the 90s (the most advanced interceptor in the US arsenal at the time) to defend against Iraqi scuds.. and while the first gulf war was still going on.. they took some units and sold them to freaking CHINA.

.

[pantsontheground]

Makes sense. 10 years ago we were angry over 911. Now the media, and the country as a.whole, can't stop making excuses for, and defending the actions of these wackos. In Europe, I hear its even worse. Islam is a violent plague.

[undercover1]

The US has always taken sides instead of remaining neutral in too many cases in history. How can we not support some muslums in that region when they make up the vast majority of the people. We have to learn to coexist.

The US has yet to learn to work with people of other cultures, religions etc to foster an atmosphere where all sides prosper. Instead, we too often support the side in which we think we can "get" the most from; ie, oil, shipping lanes, minerals, etc. or who pays our politicians the most...the Jewish lobby.

Regarding Israel, there will never be peace in that region since we refuse to recognize that Israel is a terrorist state every bit as much as some of the militant Islamic states. We need to learn to treat them equally. Why don't we lob threats of invading Israel and taking down their govt...after all...they refuse to abide by UN resolutions to vacate the west bank, they have nuclear weapons (we all know this).

The militant muslums will always despise us because we support the Jews for doing the exact same thing the militant muslums do and we'll wage war against them and not the Jews. I hate to say it, but....we deserve strikes against us like 9/11 simply because we unjustly side with a terrorist state...Israel.

[kingorpawn]

Originally Posted by undercover1

The US has always taken sides instead of remaining neutral in too many cases in history. How can we not support some muslums in that region when they make up the vast majority of the people. We have to learn to coexist.

The US has yet to learn to work with people of other cultures, religions etc to foster an atmosphere where all sides prosper. Instead, we too often support the side in which we think we can "get" the most from; ie, oil, shipping lanes, minerals, etc. or who pays our politicians the most...the Jewish lobby.

Regarding Israel, there will never be peace in that region since we refuse to recognize that Israel is a terrorist state every bit as much as some of the militant Islamic states. We need to learn to treat them equally. Why don't we lob threats of invading Israel and taking down their govt...after all...they refuse to abide by UN resolutions to vacate the west bank, they have nuclear weapons (we all know this).

The militant muslums will always despise us because we support the Jews for doing the exact same thing the militant muslums do and we'll wage war against them and not the Jews. I hate to say it, but....we deserve strikes against us like 9/11 simply because we unjustly side with a terrorist state...Israel.

[guest031612-2]

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