Marriage, Monogamy, and Hobbying

[spice-is-nice]

OK, I'm going to go philosophical here. Hopefully some of you will find this interesting and share your own perspectives.

I'm sure there are a wide variety of opinions on this subject, and there have probably been questions and responses at least somewhat in this area in the past either on ASPD or here. However, it has interested me for some time, so I'll pose a few questions and give my personal answers to them.

1. Is monogamy natural?
2. Is monogamy good for a marriage, whether it is natural or not?
3. Will society and partners allow an intimate, but non-sexual, relationship between 2 people who are married to others.
4. Can hobbying be bad for a marriage.
5. Can hobbying be good for a marriage.

I have been married for 40 years (I'm almost 62 now). My wife and I started dating in college and have been best friends ever since. We are children of the 60s and each of us thought from before we were married that monogamy was not a natural state and could put severe strains on an excellent relationship if there were no other sexual outlets. Therefore we agreed from the start that discreet play was OK for both of us, as long as it wasn't disrespectful, socially embarrassing, and neither of us brought anything infectious home (that has never happened, knock wood). That leaves both of us free to play without fears of "being caught". An enviable situation from my point of view. It has worked very well for us (we play separately, as she has no interest in swinging). We both work, we both travel some, so it has been easy to play discreetly. We both consider ourselves to be very, very moral people. Anyway, that is the context for my answers.

1. So, to us, monogamy is highly unnatural. It is almost impossible for us to imagine that anyone who loves sex could possibly want to only ever have it for with one person. It's a cliche, but does anyone want to eat exactly the same meal over and over again? It is also difficult for us to imagine that any 2 people are an exact match for what they like to do sexually. The sexuality we share is very high quality, but she is nowhere near as adventurous as I am. That doesn't matter since I have an outlet for anything else I want to do (as does she), which only makes our own sexuality better.

2. Everyone must answer this question personally. Monogamy would have been very detrimental to our marriage. Again, I think the keys are respect, discretion, and playing safely. I recognize that it is possibly for jealousy to come into play. My personal opinion is that relationships outside the marriage (possibly similar to what happens when one or both partners travel separately a lot) is that it will make strong relationships better, and hasten the dissolution of weak, unhealthy, or dysfunctional relationships.

People coming from certain religious perspectives reject any approach but monogamy. I am a humanist myself, and personally find religious approaches to sexuality to be inhibiting, confusing, contradictory (all sorts of interesting relationship variations in the Bible, especially the Old Testament), and a great source of immense amounts of guilt. However, I respect anyone's right to their own religious beliefs, as long as they don't try to impose them on me, especially by trying to codify their religious beliefs into laws which govern everyone, including those who don't share specific religious beliefs.

3. Most of U.S society will not accept an intimate relationship (whether sex is involved or not) between a married man or woman and a person of the opposite sex. I think married men and women can acceptably have intimate (again, not necessarily sexual) friendships with people of their own gender, without the typical presumption for heterosexuals that something sexual must be going on. I have always enjoyed the company of women more than men, and have always felt cheated that it is so nearly impossible to have close women friends other than in the context of two couples, or a purely workplace relationship, without incurring disapproval.

4. Of course hobbying can be bad for a marriage. If it becomes obsessive, or health risks are taken, or if one spends beyond ones means, or if the relationships are highly indiscreet, etc., etc., etc.

5. Hobbying has been GREAT for my marriage and I suspect that it could be for a great many other marriages. It gives me the outlet to interact intimately with other women, to fulfill all my fantasies, and to teach me how to be a better lover (my wife has DEFINITELY benefitted from my hobbying). I don't play with great frequency, and I like getting to know the ladies I play with a bit--I think that improves any intimate relationship. I think of hobbying at its best as being like a great play. It isn't exactly "real", but it can fulfill fantasies, bring joy, tears, inspiration, tenderness, perspective, and all the other things we go to plays and movies for. It can at its best be better than real life because both participants typically look forward to the time together, prepare carefully, put their best foot forward, set aside time where they won't be interrupted, and all without the stresses and strains inherent in any successful long term relationship. Like books, or plays, or movies, it can provide an escape, and outlet, a source of laughter, a source of action and entertainment.

We don't ask much from our providers do we LOL? The very best are great Thespians. Some choose to say "they are only acting". Well, the best actors submerge themselves in the role and experience all the feelings of the characters they play. So hopefully, those same providers take great enjoyment from that process, and take great pleasure in pleasing their "audience", and receiving accolades in return.

Well, I've nattered on more than long enough. It's fun for me to write down what I think, and I enjoy doing that whether it inspires a lot of reaction, or sinks like a stone.

[DEAR_JOHN]

Originally Posted by spice-is-nice

5. Hobbying has been GREAT for my marriage and I suspect that it could be for a great many other marriages.

If you have to lie to get out of the house, such as playing poker with your buddies, etc., it can't be GREAT for your marriage.

I have been out of the hobby for about a year and a half, and one of the things that drove me out of the hobby was the constant lying. After a while, the lying and deception just about drove me nuts.

IMHO the only way hobbying can be GREAT for your marriage is if you have an open marriage, where hobbying is understood and accepted by your wife. Unfortunately, not a lot of these types of marriages exist.

[Htowner]

You don't really have a marriage. You are best friends and great room mates. At least by its conventional standard. I don't think I am insulting you because 'conventional' is not what you go by , so what of it.
In my not so humble opinion, I think , sex and procreation is what you have in the early days. The rest should be companionship and being best friends as you both are. I really think people should grow out of sex and move on to better and bigger things in life which does not surround our genitals.
Most poeple don't have such relationship in their marriage because they get married for stupid reasons : looks, wealth, high school sweethearts, or whatever the hell it is . The variety being spice of life, is one of the most destructive mottos justifying a lot of wreckage in relationships.
The jury is still out for me on marriage as a concept so i am not being the moral majority here . The self centerism in our current culture has closed a lot of doors to the prospects of having a good family .
Most of us use sex to fill voids and it does not work that well really , and over time it works even less.
Whenever I get around some families, I don't even feel the urge to hobby.That is just me. That tells me this hobbying is just a pain killer not the cure and that is that. End of story.
So if you are going to leave your friendship and companionship for hobbying and sex my friend, your car is in reverse and you are looking forward. Expect a wreck in increments while going backward in life.

[ThatManFromTexas]

I think that God put wealthy old guys on the same planet with hot young women who are willing to swap something they have for something the wealthy old guy has for a reason... and I ain't gonna argue with the big Guy...

[Guest030915]

To tell you the truth the only reason I'm still married is because of my hobby life. I had to find another outlet for the things I wanted because my wife won't give them to me. If I hadn't gotten into hobbying I would definitely be well on my way to divorce court. It may ultimately end up that way but hobbying has taken away a large amount of the frustration that comes with a spouse that's unwilling to please the man she claims she loves.

[spice-is-nice]

Htowner,

I take nothing on here personally, even if I get flamed. Your response is your opinion, and an interesting one from which I take absolutely no offense, though I disagree with a lot of it.

I strongly disagree that I don't have a marriage. What stronger marriage than 2 people who are best friends and love each other very much and face all the slings and arrows life has to offer with a united front and raise children lovingly? Sex is fun, even transcendent from time to time, but great sex does not make a great marriage. Bad sex might be able to ruin a marriage, but if the sex is OK or better, other things are much more important to the success of a relationship, in my opinion.

You seem to be saying that it is only a marriage if it is sexually monogamous. I think the strongest marriages are not ones based on the hormone driven "passion" which accompanies the start of a new relationship, and certainly not ones based on something as arbitrary as sexual exclusivity.

My 2 cents, and works very successfully for me and my wife, that is ALL I can say with certainty.

[ThatManFromTexas]

Originally Posted by spice-is-nice

Htowner,

I take nothing on here personally, even if I get flamed. Your response is your opinion, and an interesting one from which I take absolutely no offense, though I disagree with a lot of it.

I strongly disagree that I don't have a marriage. What stronger marriage than 2 people who are best friends and love each other very much and face all the slings and arrows life has to offer with a united front and raise children lovingly? Sex is fun, even transcendent from time to time, but great sex does not make a great marriage. Bad sex might be able to ruin a marriage, but if the sex is OK or better, other things are much more important to the success of a relationship, in my opinion.

You seem to be saying that it is only a marriage if it is sexually monogamous. I think the strongest marriages are not ones based on the hormone driven "passion" which accompanies the start of a new relationship, and certainly not ones based on something as arbitrary as sexual exclusivity.

My 2 cents, and works very successfully for me and my wife, that is ALL I can say with certainty.

Do what works for you... it wouldn't work for me... hell, I don't even like sharing my tools ....

[Toreador_one]

Marriage means different things to different people.

Some women (and men) stay married even if living in an abusive relationship (physical, emotional or both) and "may" believe they have a "healthy" marriage. Some may live in and accept infidelity. Is a matter of their beliefs, upbringing, culture, and other factors (Is the mormon accepted polygamy, not a marriage?)

To me marriage is about companionship, caring, acceptance, love, and tolerance, if the good by far outweights the bad for each party, chances are they MAY have a good marriage. My opinion anyway.

MY answers to the poster's questions:

1. Is monogamy natural? NO (never met anyone male of female that does not fantasize about being with someone else, if they say they do not, they are lying)

2. Is monogamy good for a marriage, whether it is natural or not?
See my definition of marriage, if they are happy with it, then yes.

3. Will society and partners allow an intimate, but non-sexual, relationship between 2 people who are married to others.
Again, see my definition of marriage, if the parties are ok with it, then yes.

4. Can hobbying be bad for a marriage.
Chances are it can be more damaging than good, hobbying implies more than sex, it implies using of the marriage finances. you spend 200 for one hour of sex but then make a big deal about spending 200 to take out the family for a nice evening at the town, try to defend that (didn't see that one coming did you). If you hobby feel guilty (any kind of guilt) after being with a provider, then it cannot be good.

5. Can hobbying be good for a marriage.
No (maybe in rare instances) Do not confuse being good for you because you get what you do not get at home, with being good for marriage. It is good FOR YOU, there are two parties involved in a marriage, not just you. Now in a rare ocassion that she may be ok with it, then fine (the tolerance part of my definition of marriage)

[Htowner]

spice-is-nice,
I applaud you for the bonding you have developed over the years and what you have done with the offsprings. No doubt about that.
My point was that in my opinion, sex should be an element in the early years , the younger years, and something to grow out of and be able to elevate yourself to a deeper than best friends plateau, soul mates if you will.
However if the appetite for sex, with others perhaps grows, then the bond was not strong enough to save you from hormone driven desires.
I am sure it works for you but I could not even envision picturing my best friend of all decades with someone else , and sure hope she feels the same way about me.
It is just sex , but once you take that element and expand it beyond the realm of your marriage, then all is left a friendship based on the past and that is it. Memories of the past and accomplishments and the good many years spent together.
From this point on, marriage by any definition has expired and you are just old friends now.
That is just the way I think but jealous of you having a best friend like that.

[pyramider]

Everything in moderation.

Hell, spice has been married for 40 years anyway you cut it that's a long time. Whatever he and his wife are doing is working.

[jaytamil]

Very interesting topic....

Here is what I think of marriage.

The minute you said "I do" to each other both of have 'agreed' to overlook the other person's shortcomings, no matter what they are. That is what love is all about it. If your spouse doesn't feel comfortable with some sexual activity, shouldn't you love her (him) enough to forsake that activity? Is that activity more important than your spouse?

Hobbying can never be good for any marriage or a relationship that can end in a marriage or marriage like relationship. Marriage is naturally a monogamous relationship. Think about it why get married if both you can't commit to other person 100%? If you are married and are seeing other people on the side, sooner or later jealousy or comparison will set in.

I have been hobbying for about 5 years. My reason for hobbying is similar to yours, my wife is not comfortable with some of the activities that I want to do. We would talk about it and she would agree to try it but at the last minute either shy away from it or wouldn't do it, so I took to hobbying to get my urges fulfilled. I know that what I am doing is wrong for my marriage and trying to quit but having a hard time. .

[dearhunter]

I am an ashole and admit it...............my SO knows I am unfaithful...........my SO would love for me to stop.........every aspect of our relationship is good (even sex).......I just like variety.

I provide for her every need and many of her wants........if she were to leave me for my failings, I would understand and acknowledge it is my own fault.........I have no excuse for what I do............I am just an ashole and admit it.............but, she knew what I was before she hooked up with me.

[ThatManFromTexas]

Originally Posted by dearhunter

I am an ashole and admit it...............my SO knows I am unfaithful...........my SO would love for me to stop.........every aspect of our relationship is good (even sex).......I just like variety.

I provide for her every need and many of her wants........if she were to leave me for my failings, I would understand and acknowledge it is my own fault.........I have no excuse for what I do............I am just an ashole and admit it.............but, she knew what I was before she hooked up with me.

The first step to recovery is realizing you have a problem. Allrighty... you're on your way man...

Oh, wait... the second step requires a desire to change... oh, well ...

[RebeccaRothko]

I was reading Savage Love the other day, good stuff http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/S...ve?oid=4396681 So I definitely plan to check out the book, Sex at Dawn.

This has got to be one of my favorite pieces by Dan Savage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ObrF...=youtube_gdata

[notanewbie]

**edit**

Rebecca is smoking hot.