Inquiries and Impeachment of Trump

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

If Biden did in fact do a quid pro quo with the Ukraine by withholding aid until Viktor Shokin was removed from office, do you think it was improper for him to do so? Remember that Trump withheld aid from Honduras, Guatemala, and El Salvador unless they stopped the flow of immigrants to the U.S. A quid pro quo which I had no problem with.


Then you understand why Republicans have no problem with this particular quid pro quo of Trump's


Proper or not proper response if you please.

I think it is one of the reasons Democrats dropped the whole quid pro quo argument besides the fact that many Americans have no idea what that means. It means in laymens terms, "I'll give you this if you give me that". So, did Biden say I'll give you a billion dollars if you fire Shokin? Yes he did, it's right there on video. Democrats will counter with ( just like Republicans are countering ) Yeah but everybody and their brother thought Shokin was corrupt! Doesn't alter the fact that Biden offered a quid pro quo. Pretty sure there is nothing in the law that says if you have the "right people" agreeing with you, it's OK.



As Mulvaney correctly said and you just confirmed, quid pro quo is a normal regularly used concept. Happens all the time. What doesn't happen all the time hence the kerfuffle, is asking for an investigation into a person who just so happens to be running against you in the next election but then you have to take into account the legal, written in a treaty, responsibility of a President to with hold foreign aide until it can be shown that the government will investigate and combat corruption no matter who may be involved in that corruption. On the surface, a prima facie case can be made that Biden made an illegal quid pro quo because he asked for an "official act" removal of an official, for money. It could be argued that demanding such an act, removal from office of a foreign official that wasn't charged with and didn't have a trial and wasn't found guilty in a court of law was, what's the word Democrats are now so fond of, oh yeah, "un-ethical" and could be bribery.



At worst what Trump did was violate the federal election law that says no one can solicit a foreign national to give "something of value" in this case information ( not a donation of money ) that could be used against an opponent in an election. This violation usually ends in a fine.


It would be "reasonable" to ask for a censure of the President but I doubt they would get that either.


To give you a direct answer to your question, Yes if what Trump did was against the law, then what Biden did was against the law. Can't have it both ways is my point. Drop the accusation against Trump and the accusation against Biden gets dropped. Don't drop the accusation against Trump and what Biden did will be put on trial and examined for days on end.


Believe me, Democrats are huddling right now asking themselves if it will be worth it to the Democratic party to go to trial in the Senate where Republican will control the show and do everything in their power to take down as many Democrats as they can. No matter who else confirms that "Trump said in the phone call and we have proven" Republicans in the Senate will not convict so what could Democrats possible hope to achieve with a trial? To "dirty up Trump" before the election? OK, but what if doing so, you "dirty up" your party? Would it be worth it? We shall see. I personally don't see how Democrats having gone this far with all their leaders like Nadler who is about to begin his "inquiry" has already said he thinks the President should be impeached, can stop now. That's like a judge saying before the trial to hear evidence, he pronounces the defendant guilty. That is what is happening.


I hope I answered your question.

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

what would be the reason to remove Shokin?



if they removed Shokin to stop the Burisma investigation; I think the question here is was the "quid pro quo" proper in this context.

"Recommending" that Shokin be investigated and if found guilty, removed, would have been proper but saying if you don't do this, you won't get money, is not.


Now lets compare that to what Trump said. Did he in the phone call or in any of the testimony we heard, tell anybody that if Zelensky didn't get the "result he wanted", the presumed "dirt on Biden" he wouldn't get the aide? Nope. Plenty of people "assumed" that. It was asking for an investigation that is what Trump meant. Firing Shokin was the outcome Biden wanted. The outcome Trump wanted was an "investigation" something that Biden didn't ask for, he asked for the firing of an official of a foreign government. Anybody ever heard of that happening before you get money from the US?

[Jaxson66]

Originally Posted by HedonistForever

"Recommending" that Shokin be investigated and if found guilty, removed, would have been proper but saying if you don't do this, you won't get money, is not.


Now lets compare that to what Trump said. Did he in the phone call or in any of the testimony we heard, tell anybody that if Zelensky didn't get the "result he wanted", the presumed "dirt on Biden" he wouldn't get the aide? Nope. Plenty of people "assumed" that. It was asking for an investigation that is what Trump meant. Firing Shokin was the outcome Biden wanted. The outcome Trump wanted was an "investigation" something that Biden didn't ask for, he asked for the firing of an official of a foreign government. Anybody ever heard of that happening before you get money from the US?

Well, lightfoot Graham has opened a investigation into Biden his son and Bursima. So, you got your investigation, and I predict it leads to another conspiracy theory flop. The Horowitz report is a bust exposing the trump lie that Obama was spying on his campaign and the deep state FISA warrants conspiracy.

That fat lying bastard squatting in the Oval Office once again sought aide from a foreign state to meddle into an election. He will be impeached for his actions and if the Senate acquits that’s on them. Nonetheless he will go down in History for those facts.

Biden was doing what he was instructed to do. No comparison.

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by Jaxson66

Well, lightfoot Graham has opened a investigation into Biden his son and Bursima. So, you got your investigation,


And Graham will ask Ukraine for help in investigating corruption at Burisma but Trump, the President couldn't ask for that investigation? Ridiculous, of course he could.



and I predict it leads to another conspiracy theory flop.


Perhaps but some will say the damage to Biden has already happened. What Biden did in his quid pro quo demand will be argued was a bribe or at the very least was wrong same argument against Trump. Add that to all the people who have already testified that Hunter had the appearance of impropriety recognized by literally everybody in the Obama administration to the point where Amb. Yovanovitch was briefed on the "problem" before she went to Ukraine.


The Horowitz report is a bust exposing the trump lie that Obama was spying on his campaign and the deep state FISA warrants conspiracy.



I think I'll wait to read the report and see what the Senate hearing on Dec. 11th uncovers when Horowitz must defend his report. At the very least according to early "speculation" will prove once again that there are people in the FBI willing to risk their job and possible criminal charge just to hurt Trump.


That fat lying bastard squatting in the Oval Office once again sought aide from a foreign state to meddle into an election. He will be impeached for his actions and if the Senate acquits that’s on them. Nonetheless he will go down in History for those facts.



So he'll join the well respected ( in the Democratic party ) Bill Clinton who hasn't done so bad, has he.


Biden was doing what he was instructed to do. No comparison.

OK, if Biden was doing what he was instructed to do something that didn't work so well for Nazi's not that I'm comparing Biden to Nazi's, I leave that up to Democrats to compare people to Nazi's, Obama is guilty of demanding an illegal quid pro quo. Works for me.

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

what would be the reason to remove Shokin?


if they removed Shokin to stop the Burisma investigation; I think the question here is was the "quid pro quo" proper in this context.

Shokin was considered to be a corrupt politician.

"A whistleblower complaint centering on President Donald Trump's phone call with the Ukrainian president has spurred a number of allegations and counterallegations as Republicans and Democrats jockey for position amid an impeachment inquiry.

At the heart of Congress' probe into the president's actions is his claim that former Vice President and 2020 Democratic frontrunner Joe Biden strong-armed the Ukrainian government to fire its top prosecutor in order to thwart an investigation into a company tied to his son, Hunter Biden.

But sources ranging from former Obama administration officials to an anti-corruption advocate in Ukraine say the official, Viktor Shokin, was ousted for the opposite reason Trump and his allies claim.

It wasn't because Shokin was investigating a natural gas company tied to Biden's son; it was because Shokin wasn't pursuing corruption among the country's politicians, according to a Ukrainian official and four former American officials who specialized in Ukraine and Europe.

Shokin's inaction prompted international calls for his ouster and ultimately resulted in his removal by Ukraine's parliament."


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...or/3785620002/

Should the U.S. use its financial weight to influence politics in other countries? Probably not but it's done rather consistently by both parties.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

But sources ranging from former Obama administration officials to an anti-corruption advocate in Ukraine say the official, Viktor Shokin, was ousted for the opposite reason Trump and his allies claim.

It wasn't because Shokin was investigating a natural gas company tied to Biden's son; it was because Shokin wasn't pursuing corruption among the country's politicians, according to a Ukrainian official and four former American officials who specialized in Ukraine and Europe.

And you separate the "country's politicians" from the next to largest, if not the largest, "natural gas" company in the country?*

https://pjmedia.com/trending/did-bid...-on-the-board/

In the last days of the Obama administration, Vice President Joe Biden took a "swan song" trip to Ukraine, a notoriously corrupt country where he had been the administration's "point person." On the eve of this trip, the country announced it would end a criminal investigation into a company connected to the loss of $1.8 billion in aid funding — a company whose board of directors included Biden's son Hunter.

The Biden family's dealings with this Ukrainian company involved getting one of the country's most notorious mob bankers, Ihor Kolomoisky, off the U.S. government visa ban list. Under Biden's leadership, $3 billion in aid went to Ukraine, and his son's company was implicated in the disappearance of $1.8 billion of that money.

Peter Schweizer reveals the former vice president's role in his new book "Secret Empires: How the American Political Class Hides Corruption and Enriches Family and Friends." The scandal drops with Biden reportedly mulling a 2020 presidential run.

Secretary of State John Kerry announced the U.S. support for Ukraine's nationalist government in March 2014, a month after a mass uprising pushed pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych out of office and inspired a corresponding pro-Russian uprising in the east. Biden became the Obama administration's "point person" for the country.

On April 16, 2014, Biden met with Devon Archer, a former star fundraiser for John Kerry's 2004 presidential run and business partner in Rosemont Capital with Biden's son Hunter. (Federal agents would later arrest Archer in May 2016 for defrauding a Native American tribe.)

Less than a week later (April 22) came an announcement that Archer had joined the board of Burisma, a secretive Ukrainian natural gas company. On May 13, Hunter Biden would also join the company's board.

On the day before Archer's hiring, April 21, the vice president landed in Kiev for high-level meetings with Ukrainian officials. He spearheaded the effort to invest $1 billion from the U.S. and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) into Ukraine.

The vice president's presence helps explain a conundrum. Burisma hired his son and Archer despite the fact that neither of them had any experience in the energy sector. Schweizer notes, "The choice of Hunter Biden to handle transparency and corporate governance of Burisma is curious, because Biden had little if any experience in Ukrainian law, or professional legal counsel, period."

Furthermore, Hunter Biden "seemed undeterred by the fact that as he was joining the Burisma board the British government's Serious Fraud Office (SFO) was seizing $23 million from [founder Mykola] Zlochevsky's bank accounts." Furthermore, a year after Biden joined the firm, "experienced industry observers warned investors that Burisma was still a company to be avoided."

As Biden and Kerry Went Soft on China, Sons Made Nuclear, Military Business Deals with Chinese Gov't
On the other hand, Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Out of 148 nations studied by the World Economic Forum, Ukraine ranks 143 for property rights, 130 for "irregular payments and bribes," 133 for "favoritism in decisions of government officials," and 146 for "protection of minority shareholders' interests."

Two major figures in this corruption feature prominently in Biden's Ukraine investment.

Zlochevsky founded Burisma in Cyprus in 2006. He served as natural resources minister under Yanukovych, and gave himself the licenses to develop the country's abundant gas fields. He also had a flare for lavishness, running a super-exclusive fashion boutique named after himself.

Burisma's major subsidiaries ended up sharing the same business address as the natural gas firm controlled by Ukrainian oligarch Ihor Kolomoisky. He controlled the country's largest financial institution, ProvatBank, through which the Ukrainian military and government workers got paid. He also owned media companies and airlines. In violation of Ukraine law, he maintained Ukrainian, Israeli, and Cypriot passports.

Kolomoisky gained a reputation for violence and brutality, along with lawlessness. Rival oligarchs have sued him for alleged involvement in "murders and beheadings" related to a business deal. He also allegedly used "hired rowdies armed with baseball bats, iron bars, gas and rubber bullet pistols and chainsaws" to take over a steel plant in 2006. He built his multibillion-dollar empire by "raiding" other companies, forcing them to merge with his own using brute force.

For these and other reasons, the U.S. government placed Kolomoisky on its visa ban list, prohibiting him from entering the country legally. In 2015, however, after Hunter Biden and Devon Archer had joined Burisma's board, Kolomoisky was given admittance back into the U.S.

Archer and the younger Biden brought other benefits to Burisma, however. Archer represented the company at the Louisiana Gulf Coast Oil Exposition in 2015. Biden addressed the Energy Security for the Future conference in Monaco. The vice president's son brought much-needed legitimacy to the shoddy gas company.

Less than a month after Archer joined Burisma's board, the company hired another Kerry lackey, David Leiter, as a lobbyist in Washington, D.C. He successfully lobbied for more aid to the country.

Both Biden and Kerry championed $1.8 billion in taxpayer-backed loans to be given to Ukraine courtesy of the IMF. That money would go directly through Kolomoisky's PrivatBank, and then it would disappear.

According to the Ukrainian anticorruption watchdog Nashi Groshi, "This transaction of $1.8 billion ... with the help of fake contracts was simply an asset siphoning operation."

FBI Arrested Russian Spies Getting Close to Hillary Clinton in Lead-Up to Uranium One Deal

In December 2016, Ukraine's government was forced to nationalize Privatbank in order to shore up Ukrainians' savings. A Ukrainian lawmaker called it the "greatest robbery of Ukraine's state budget of the millennium."

In February 2016, the government seized Burisma founder Zlochevsky's assets and placed him on Ukraine's wanted list. The Ukrainian Prosecutor General's Office seized Burisma's gas wells.

Even so, four days before Joe Biden arrived for his "swan song" visit in January 2017, the criminal investigation into Burisma was dropped.

Devon Archer left the company at the end of 2016, but Hunter Biden remains on the board and continues to provide legal assistance. Archer and Biden have not been required to disclose their compensation from Burisma, but Bowling Green State University professor Oliver Boyd-Barrett wrote, "Potentially, the Biden family could become billionaires."

Did Joe Biden get Burisma off the hook for $1.8 billion in lost aid funding? Did he or his son get Kolomoisky off the visa ban list? Schweizer says the Bidens did not return numerous requests for comment.

Schweizer's book also reveals extensive Biden- and Kerry-related corruption in China, with Hunter Biden's company even investing in a Chinese company under FBI investigation for stealing U.S. nuclear secrets.

......

Schweizer's last book, "Clinton Cash: The Untold Story of How and Why Foreign Governments and Businesses Helped Make Bill and Hillary Rich," helped inspire the FBI investigation into Hillary Clinton, and may have contributed to her defeat in 2016. ...

Do you actually believe utilities and the production of natural resources are not involved with "politicians" IN THIS COUNTRY, much less in one of the most, if not the most, corrupt countries in Europe (East or West)?

You really are naive.

* Large oil/gas producers in corrupt countries "hide" their assets from the government to avoid larger bribes ("they can afford it") and higher "taxes" on reserves and production. cf Pemex which in the late 70's and early 80's started maintaining two sets of books ... so the President wouldn't steal as much!).

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

Shokin was considered to be a corrupt politician.



Literally every politician in Ukraine was considered corrupt. It's why it was called one of the top 3 most corrupt countries on the planet but Biden, excuse me, Obama fires the one guy that could cause trouble for Hunter. Maybe we should have demanded more politicians be fired for the billion. And to say that Shokin wasn't investigating corruption means he wasn't investigating Burisma so Burisma should now be thoroughly investigated.

Then Biden should have told Ukraine "Do me a favor and investigate this Shokin guy" not either fire him or President Obama won't give you "another" billion dollars on top of the two you've already received. See the difference?



So are we now saying that we have absolute veto power to decide who may and who may not be in the government of any country we give aide too? I mean I don't have a problem with that but I'm pretty sure that isn't something many politicians want to put their name to.

[Jaxson66]

Originally Posted by LexusLover

And you separate the "country's politicians" from the next to largest, if not the largest, "natural gas" company in the country?*

https://pjmedia.com/trending/did-bid...-on-the-board/



Do you actually believe utilities and the production of natural resources are not involved with "politicians" IN THIS COUNTRY, much less in one of the most, if not the most, corrupt countries in Europe (East or West)?

You really are naive.

* Large oil/gas producers in corrupt countries "hide" their assets from the government to avoid larger bribes ("they can afford it") and higher "taxes" on reserves and production. cf Pemex which in the late 70's and early 80's started maintaining two sets of books ... so the President wouldn't steal as much!).

Please stop posting deep state bullshit on this thread

Your opinion article is from March 2018 from some rat hole on the net. The majority of that bullshit has been debunked.

Lightfoot Graham has opened his investigation. I suggest you start a thread following his investigation. This thread is about the impeachment of Donald J Trump AKA... fat lying bastard.

Once again, please stop posting your deep state lies.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by HedonistForever

So are we now saying that we have absolute veto power to decide who may and who may not be in the government of any country we give aide too? I mean I don't have a problem with that but I'm pretty sure that isn't something many politicians want to put their name to.

Have you read carefully the authorization bills for foreign aid?

As you listen to the "LOONS" pretending to be CongressPERSONS during the years since November 2016 think of what they voted upon when they AUTHORIZED Trump to expend funds WITHIN HIS DISCRETION ... like ALL THE PRESIDENTS BEFORE HIM! Which includes OBAMINABLE who ELECTED NOT TO PROVIDE UKRANIANS WITH WEAPONS AT ALL!



There is NO EXCEPTION related to the conditions that may be imposed by THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES prior to RELEASING THE FUNDS within his EXCLUSIVE Constitutional Powers in foreign affairs and national security!

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by Jaxson66

Please stop posting deep state bullshit on this thread....

Please refrain from posting on here at all ... you are embarrassing all firefighters in this country. They don't deserve it. I'm beginning to believe your promotion to "captain" was affirmative action at its worst. You seem to believe you know it all. They were laughing at you behind your back.

[Jaxson66]

Your impeachment questions, answered

It’s easy to understand Russian interest in influencing our election but what motivation does Ukraine possibly have? Things seem pretty unsettled there. Ukraine didn’t interfere in the 2016 presidential election. Not according to the U.S. intelligence agencies who have said it was Russia.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...ions-answered/

[Jaxson66]

Originally Posted by LexusLover

Please refrain from posting on here at all ... you are embarrassing all firefighters in this country. They don't deserve it. I'm beginning to believe your promotion to "captain" was affirmative action at its worst. You seem to believe you know it all. They were laughing at you behind your back.

You know what? Every yearly evaluation of those guys who were laughing at me behind my back I would report their disrespect of the position. The Chief wouldn’t do anything about it. So , I would downgrade their evaluation until they weren’t receiving their raises. All the laughter stopped.

I’m that kinda guy

Stop posting your goddamn deep state lies.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by Jaxson66

You know what?

Yes! You're the typical bullshitting "firefighter" who never got his boots wet. Go figure! That's why they were laughing. That's what a 2-six-pack-a-day habit will get you. Front stage at the comics and a "Peter Principle" promotion.

Typical Gumbit tit-sucker living off the fat of the taxpayers.

[Jaxson66]

Originally Posted by LexusLover

Yes! You're the typical bullshitting "firefighter" who never got his boots wet. Go figure! That's why they were laughing. That's what a 2-six-pack-a-day habit will get you. Front stage at the comics and a "Peter Principle" promotion.

Typical Gumbit tit-sucker living off the fat of the taxpayers.

You sound more and more like one of those losers who always has an excuse for his failures. I’ve seen your type, the guy who wants authority but doesn’t want to earn it. Wants it handed to him on a silver platter.

The guy who complains about testing exams that are constantly evolving and refuses to change his old ways and fails promotion...but it wasn’t his fault, they changed the exams.

The guy who pisses and moans because he didn’t reach his goals before retirement because he couldn’t meet the requirements to take a promotional exam. Everybody’s at fault but him.

LexLoser
Please do not post your goddamn deep state Russian propaganda on this thread.

[oeb11]

j666 is afraid of the deepstate truth bogeyman coming for him??????
Always an excuse for DPST behavior - and retribution for deserved lack of respect.