Some Perspective From A Retired Pro -

[JohnJohn]

In my case, I promise you that the little extra somethings make all the difference to me. A little bit more time, asking what I would like in a visit-instead of assuming I'm the same as every other man who hobbies, and caring enough to actually follow through with my 'likes' will get my return visit again and again. Price has never made my decision for me. Except for one instance where I forgot to leave a tip that I intended to, I have always more than met the donation amount asked of me...as best as I can remember.

JMHO but, value is so much more than price.


214JULES...You go girl...Steelers Rule!

[amber rose]

amazing thread. i find it interesting because im new myself and im trying to learn things but so far it has been the hard way. i agree with alot said in here. although im new, my sole purpose is to make my client come back by any means necessary. and so far it has worked. they know what i offer/dont offer up front so we dont have any qualms about that, and my pricing doesnt fluctuate. i look at it this way...im supposed to present some kind of fantasy to my client. mold and shape into what he needs me to be at that moment. each experience is different for each client so i cant go in with an automated response/action. and so my goal is to customize each clients visit. tends to work so far.

[beernuts]

I know this is my first message but I have been lurking for some time and thought this was a rather interesting topic. So ... pounce on the unknown 'newbie' if you must, but please be gentle.

Generally, a product can exceed that of others along one of three dimensions. These three dimensions together define what we refer to as value. These dimensions are: Price, Quality, and Convenience. If one of these ranks poorly then the other two dimensions better make up for it. In other words, if price is not competitive then quality and convenience damn well better be very high --OR-- if quality and or convenience is low then price better match.

If you think about the type of clientele that make up this industry, it is fair to assume that among those three dimensions, Convenience ranks very high for us. That is why we pay for something we could get for free ... b/c it is more convenient this way.

I've lurked for a long time and have called a few ladies but the reality is, it just isn't easy to arrange anything. Assuming the phone is even picked up AND THEN a mutual time can be arranged THEN there is an additional hurdle of screening. I agree screening is important but asking for 2 or 3 provider references? Odds are one of those two or three prior providers are now among the favorites and you will never even get a test run.

Getting more repeat business is one way to make more money. Another is to just get more clientele. I'd advise making it easier for people to see you first time and try to convert them to long-term business. That doesn't mean to stop screening, just look for ways that are less painful for the prospective client. I don't plan on signing up for any list that could potential find its way into the open public and it's just too difficult to get a half dozen referrals. Check out the ISO and you'll see a question about newbies ever few weeks. For every one person commenting, there are likely 20 or 30 thinking it.

[Eklutna]

When I see a provider and she provides good service, I'm sure to send her a followup email and thank her for making me feel special. I'm really surprised that so few providers do the same.

If you have a clients email address, a thank you email would go a long long way. After all, you were the one he chose and he had a LOT to choose from. Thank him for his business. Ask if the session was what he expected and if not, what didn't you provide?? Tell him you enjoyed being with him and would love to see him again.

Good point, ManoftheBayou. Nice gestures go a long way.

[MaxiMilyen]

Originally Posted by Saturn

TO Max - I love ya - but I have to disagree on your comment on price points - it isn't always directed by cheap Hobbiests. Its a fact of Life - any economic decision is always takes price into consideration - whether it would be taxes we pay, price of a new car, or the cost of a beer. Price always matters, and higher price doesn't always equate for better quality.

Not quite what I meant, hon. I guess I didn't state what I meant clearly enough, sorry. What I meant was, we all know, that it is normally those who can not afford to hobby the way they want, who are usually the ones that mention our prices and try to bring them down, often stating how bad the economy is and how much better biz would be if we did so. Normally they don't state these things in such a nice way. There are many instances of this in many threads since the beginning of this board.

And yes, I understand that price is a consideration. It's something I considered in the beginning and have re-evaluated, but have yet seen a need to change. It's also not the only consideration, and in many cases, not the most important one, as stated by a few gents here already. I agree that higher prices don't make for better quality, however, it might be reasonable to conclude that someone at a higher price might normally see less gents, is less tired, becomes less jaded and is more inclined to give a better quality experience.

[Introuble]

Originally Posted by M A X

What I meant was, we all know, that it is normally those who can not afford to hobby the way they want, who are usually the ones that mention our prices and try to bring them down, often stating how bad the economy is and how much better biz would be if we did so.

I personally think that the number of clients that would even attempt to do that are so few that it is a non-issue. The BIG majority of us simply react to the prices advertised and make a decision based upon that. What you are suggesting possibly is that these individuals are actively trying to get the prices down where they can afford them. I simply do not see much evidence of that.

Originally Posted by M A X

.....it might be reasonable to conclude that someone at a higher price might normally see less gents, is less tired, becomes less jaded and is more inclined to give a better quality experience.

It could be, but certainly no evidence of it. If that were the case, and I have seen this happen occasionally, the provider would make that point clear, ie. "I only see one client a day". The higher price could generate enough cash flow where the opportunity would exist, but honestly I simply do not see much evidence of it. I occasionally have a provider tell me that they can't do 3-4 guys a day and keep the quality up and I understand that. My point is simply this.....there is no evidence to suggest that higher price means less sessions.

[MaxiMilyen]

Originally Posted by Introuble

I personally think that the number of clients that would even attempt to do that are so few that it is a non-issue. The BIG majority of us simply react to the prices advertised and make a decision based upon that. What you are suggesting possibly is that these individuals are actively trying to get the prices down where they can afford them. I simply do not see much evidence of that.

It could be, but certainly no evidence of it. If that were the case, and I have seen this happen occasionally, the provider would make that point clear, ie. "I only see one client a day". The higher price could generate enough cash flow where the opportunity would exist, but honestly I simply do not see much evidence of it. I occasionally have a provider tell me that they can't do 3-4 guys a day and keep the quality up and I understand that. My point is simply this.....there is no evidence to suggest that higher price means less sessions.

It is a big issue to the ladies when it happens and I'm not sure you or any gent would take kindly to just anyone discussing your worth in the same manner. Price may be what YOU are first interested in, but there have also been threads started about this subject and normally it's pics that first catch a gent's attention.

Some of us see more and some of us see less. We don't always share this info for various reasons. We all have our reasons for our prices and for the amount of clients we will or will not see. If you charge a higher price and have the same expenses as some one who charges lower, then you certainly can afford to see fewer gents and probably will. You are less emotionally and physically spent and are more able to provide a better experience. There are always exceptions to everything and there may be a few who can give 110% to 3 or more clients a day. These would be Super Providers!(in my opinion) LOL

I really am not trying to be argumentative, but rather informative from my own perspective. That being said and with all due respect, you are not a woman or a provider and you are also not privy to as much provider info as I am, hon. I have no reason to state anything other than my own informed opinion from my side of the fence concerning these matters. I realize that all the ladies and gents may not agree with me, and like me, they are entitled to their opinions concerning these matters. We are all different and interpret these things differently.


I need a raise....LOL I kid! I kid!

[Iaintliein]

Having never taken an actual "business" course. I can not help but wonder if this discussion could lead to a great thesis. With today's economy three things are certain:
1. Clients have less disposable income. So there are fewer clients, making fewer appointments.
2. More ladies are unable to find civilian jobs. So older providers stay longer and younger ladies join the profession who might not have otherwise.
3. The cost of living has risen so ladies must either see more clients or earn more per appointment to stay even.

Clearly item #3 is opposed by items #1 and 2.

Truly a case study in "niche marketing" ;-)

Best of luck to all concerned.

[Introuble]

Having never taken an actual "business" course. I can not help but wonder if this discussion could lead to a great thesis. With today's economy three things are certain:
1. Clients have less disposable income. So there are fewer clients, making fewer appointments. So the solution would be to figure out ways to maximize what you have and create a better environment to capture new clients.
2. More ladies are unable to find civilian jobs. So older providers stay longer and younger ladies join the profession who might not have otherwise. Hence creating a supply side problem which along with #1 will drive the price down. It is NOT the clients driving the price down
3. The cost of living has risen so ladies must either see more clients or earn more per appointment to stay even. Or as in business, you look for ways to cut overheads so that #1 & #2 are LESS of an issue.

Clearly item #3 is opposed by items #1 and 2.

Truly a case study in "niche marketing" ;-)
While it is a niche market, the business principles are the same in many regards

[Guest122610]

Max, Your point is well stated, and respected. I have never tried to see you, so I am not trying to save a few bucks here.
Lantien also makes a great point.
I do not think sending an email to some guys after a session will fix this problem, unless your client is a very lonley guy. The service and time spent will get a return visit, only if he feels a connection. Do not treat all of us the same, because we are all different, OK, I know this is hard for most to understand and is confused with YMMV.

If you are sucsessfull in what you are doing, keep doing it. But, if it is not working, you must make changes.

You can try to only see one guy a month, and charge $10K per session. You would put yourself in a different class of compitition, so you would need to do your homework before making this choice.

It is not the cheap hobbiest that are suggesting lower pricing.I do OK, but have no desire to spend all that I have on the hobby. However, if the cost was less I could do it more often. I would spend more to get more (so to speak). There are some guys that would like to, but can't justify the cost.

I have seen people in the work force that all ranges of pay. Paying somone more does not change their work ethic.

I do respect the fact that you great women are not writing papers, it is a much more personal service, so I understand the pride factor.
That is my 2 cents on the matter.

[PODarkness]

I've never understood the business model of the Airlines. They have a plane with 20 empty seats on it, and rather than sell the seats cheap, to make sure they are filled before take-off, they jack the price up, making it a certainty that seats will bring in nothing.
Every lady has the right to price herself in any manor she chooses. No argument here. The reasons that you are giving for not making a price change remind me of the Airlines.

It is a big issue to the ladies when it happens and I'm not sure you or any gent would take kindly to just anyone discussing your worth in the same manner. Price may be what YOU are first interested in, but there have also been threads started about this subject and normally it's pics that first catch a gent's attention.

It should not be a big issue to anybody who sells a product or service on the open market, to have their price discussed by their customers. If the seller gets upset because the customers are openly comparing price to value, or price to cost, it's usually a sign that the seller isn't confident in the outcome of that comparison. I can't speak for everybody, but as someone who freelances in my chosen industry, my value to my clients is constantly being re-evaluated, and compared to others who have the same type of training as me. There are clients who are willing to pay more than others, but it would be foolish for me to refuse to work for anyone who can't pay top dollar.

I sell my time, much the same as a provider, just in larger chunks. Time is a perishable item, considering that once the time has passed, it becomes worthless. If I didn't sell it by the time it passed, I never will.

The fact is, there are not enough top dollar contracts in a year for my bills to get paid on time. There are times, for example July and August, when there are not many top dollar contracts being offered. Again, it's much the same as the situation described by the OP. If I refused to work for less in the lean months, my product would spoil and I would not have a dime of income to show for it. I'd be looking at the shelters and food banks. as my bank would take the house.

Instead, I take contracts from companies that can not afford me in April and May. I can't store time to sell later, and I'd rather get something for it than nothing. Sorry, that's not accurate. I NEED to get something for it, to keep my house and stay out of the food banks. I suppose I could look at that as harsh and a blow to my self-esteem, but it's just life. Not every day is roses. In contrast, I look at food stamps and shelters as harsh, and a blow to my self-esteem.

Either the situation providers are in isn't as bad as the OP suggests, or pride is going to put quite a few sexy ladies into shelters, which, I suppose, would make the shelters less of a blow to my self-esteem.

Something I have not seen mentioned in all the talk about price, value, convenience, is intangible value. It's the reason providers get nervous when their prices are under discussion, because it's difficult to put into accounting terms. DeBeers found a way to add it to shiny stones and created the diamond market. Any time someone pays more than sticker price for a car, or $100,000 for a car that sold for $3,500 fifty years ago, it's because there is intangible value added. You cant consistently predict the size of an intangible value until somebody buys it.

Intangible value is why the girls who travel charge different rates in different cities. You can get way more for an hour in Manhattan, Vegas, and L.A. than you can in Austin, so the price changes to reflect that. It's not that the hour changed, or the service. It's the intangible value. Again, everyone is free to charge what they want, and I'll fight for your right to do it, but I don't understand why providers will change their prices without issue as they go from city to city, but will go on food stamps before doing it at home.

To a certain extent, I suspect that intangible value is the explanation for HDH, and why guys who spend up once or twice on HDH girls usually come back saying it wasn't anything better than the $$ hour they know and love. Porn-Stars are another example. You can't convince me they fuck 3-5 times better than the girls here.
Intangible value is a product of the mind. If the buyer doesn't see it, it's just a 50 year old car. If he does? He'll spend another $50,000 on a special garage to keep it in. Also? Flavor of the month has an intangible value. Regardless of age, experience, or management, there is a draw to the new girl.

You will never see anyone here state, now or in the future, she's got a manager, so she is much more reliable and performs better...LOL

Are you forgetting the AMPs and the Studios?

[MaxiMilyen]

Originally Posted by PODarkness

I've never understood the business model of the Airlines. They have a plane with 20 empty seats on it, and rather than sell the seats cheap, to make sure they are filled before take-off, they jack the price up, making it a certainty that seats will bring in nothing.
Every lady has the right to price herself in any manor she chooses. No argument here. The reasons that you are giving for not making a price change remind me of the Airlines.

It should not be a big issue to anybody who sells a product or service on the open market, to have their price discussed by their customers. If the seller gets upset because the customers are openly comparing price to value, or price to cost, it's usually a sign that the seller isn't confident in the outcome of that comparison. I can't speak for everybody, but as someone who freelances in my chosen industry, my value to my clients is constantly being re-evaluated, and compared to others who have the same type of training as me. There are clients who are willing to pay more than others, but it would be foolish for me to refuse to work for anyone who can't pay top dollar.

I sell my time, much the same as a provider, just in larger chunks. Time is a perishable item, considering that once the time has passed, it becomes worthless. If I didn't sell it by the time it passed, I never will.

The fact is, there are not enough top dollar contracts in a year for my bills to get paid on time. There are times, for example July and August, when there are not many top dollar contracts being offered. Again, it's much the same as the situation described by the OP. If I refused to work for less in the lean months, my product would spoil and I would not have a dime of income to show for it. I'd be looking at the shelters and food banks. as my bank would take the house.

Instead, I take contracts from companies that can not afford me in April and May. I can't store time to sell later, and I'd rather get something for it than nothing. Sorry, that's not accurate. I NEED to get something for it, to keep my house and stay out of the food banks. I suppose I could look at that as harsh and a blow to my self-esteem, but it's just life. Not every day is roses. In contrast, I look at food stamps and shelters as harsh, and a blow to my self-esteem.

Either the situation providers are in isn't as bad as the OP suggests, or pride is going to put quite a few sexy ladies into shelters, which, I suppose, would make the shelters less of a blow to my self-esteem.

Something I have not seen mentioned in all the talk about price, value, convenience, is intangible value. It's the reason providers get nervous when their prices are under discussion, because it's difficult to put into accounting terms. DeBeers found a way to add it to shiny stones and created the diamond market. Any time someone pays more than sticker price for a car, or $100,000 for a car that sold for $3,500 fifty years ago, it's because there is intangible value added. You cant consistently predict the size of an intangible value until somebody buys it.

Intangible value is why the girls who travel charge different rates in different cities. You can get way more for an hour in Manhattan, Vegas, and L.A. than you can in Austin, so the price changes to reflect that. It's not that the hour changed, or the service. It's the intangible value. Again, everyone is free to charge what they want, and I'll fight for your right to do it, but I don't understand why providers will change their prices without issue as they go from city to city, but will go on food stamps before doing it at home.

To a certain extent, I suspect that intangible value is the explanation for HDH, and why guys who spend up once or twice on HDH girls usually come back saying it wasn't anything better than the $$ hour they know and love. Porn-Stars are another example. You can't convince me they fuck 3-5 times better than the girls here.
Intangible value is a product of the mind. If the buyer doesn't see it, it's just a 50 year old car. If he does? He'll spend another $50,000 on a special garage to keep it in. Also? Flavor of the month has an intangible value. Regardless of age, experience, or management, there is a draw to the new girl.

Are you forgetting the AMPs and the Studios?

You would think it was the same reasoning, but the gents here have proven time and again that this does not apply. We may be intangible, but we are live people who think and feel and who interact with you. I am not sure why it works the way it does, I'm just informing you that it does. Once again, I am privy to certain info that men are not and can say with confidence, that lowering prices has yet to help a lady's business. This is fact and not something I've pulled out of thin air. I suppose it's something psychological in that, if we devalue ourselves monetarily and it is noted, it triggers something in the gents and they believe we are not as great a commodity as we were thought to be at some point. As for raising our prices, those who have done so, have claimed to be more successful, even in this economy. Go figure. POD...Maybe the difference between our time and your time is the kind of time we offer and the fact that we are reviewed from head to toe and on every aspect of our being, including price? Are you subjected to this in your line of work?

It is a big deal to be discussed so openly, because we sell such a personal service. I can't remember how many times I've read "it's not personal, it's just business". The fact is, our "time" is MORE personal than anything that can be bought or sold. It's not like we can be compared to empty airline seats, classic cars, or even jewels. We're not shining your shoes, making your bed, serving you dinner, filling your tank, washing your windows, painting your portrait or fixing your computer problems. We provide intimacy and if you can name even one single tangible or intangible thing that can be purchased that is comparable to intimacy, I'll stop trying to explain why the ladies might be offended to have it so openly laid out there as if it were empty airline seats being discussed...LOL

Everything about this business is personal, from the time you notice a lady you think is pretty to the time you walk out her door with either a smile or a frown upon your face. The whole sequence of events is personal and subjective to each and every individual. I have many clients who tip quite a bit above what my rate is. I assume they feel that spending time with me is worth more than I offer my services for. I'm sure this is true for many ladies here. Did I run out and raise my rates when this happened the first time? no...LOL

AMPs and studios? Not forgotten, and again, managed ladies who are incapable, for many reasons, or simply don't want to provide the level of service that Independent ladies do. Is there a market for it? Sure. Just as there is a market for ladies with pimps. There is a difference between those who work for legitimate agencies, those who work in AMPs & studios, those who are pimped, and those who are Independent. If there wasn't, then there wouldn't be a market for each.

Gentlemen, may your wallet, your conscience, and your common sense guide you to the level of intimate service you desire and may all your desires come true!

I'm done here......

[DFK Hunter]

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it, in the hobby we are literally playing with the most powerful emotions we humans have. As a result, since P4P has no significant love component, there arises a self-competing factor: both parties have to feel satisfied.

Now let's get one thing straight, because the hobby is an underground economy market forces are skewed and don't behave normally. Even if it wasn't, the fact the hobby is a market of human intimacy would still perturb it. Yes, all of the tried and true forces are still there, but human emotions skew everything.

To the Guys, the providers are humans, they are not LBFMs (Little [Blonde, Brunette, Brown, or Black] Fucking Machines, nor are they programmable pleasure acuators; they are living, breathing, creatures with hopes and dreams just like everyone else. Except they work in a profession the rest of society (and yes, many clients) look down upon. At the end of the day they need to feel good about themselves, and part of that self worth is the price they charge. What good is it if a provider lowers her price to the point she starts to feel bad about her selfworth and resents her customers? What kind of service do you think a client would receive? (This is why pimps can be so damaging, but that's another post.) Therefore it may be impossible for a provider to charge a "market rate" without hurting herself psychologically. Market forces trumped by human ones.

To the ladies, we are not wads of cash or ATMs, we are humans with human needs just like you. Some clients come looking for a warm body to masturbate in (or on) but many others hope to find an illusion of something long lost. Choose how to advertise yourself and remember who he is. Understand that your client has a Hobby that society (and yes many providers) looks down upon as he is usually stepping out on an SO. The need for discretion and constant deception can wear on many clients, eroding their self worth. Large financial transactions can attract unwanted attention, as well as traffic citations that occur in places he ordinarily wouldn't be. Typically $$ or $$$ is a significant investment, so he shops (a concept 99% of ladies should identify with). Remember, he's a guy, so just like the latest phone, game station, or gadget will grab his attention, so does the new provider; the thrill of the hunt. Hence, as outbound noted, why it's harder to keep old customers than it is to get new ones. Once again, Market forces trumped by human ones.

Ours is a complex community, driven by complex and exceptionally strong emotions.

Learn to deal with it.

[sunlover469]

All good points for the "serious hobbyists" but please, Life is rough all over. Figure out your business, improve your product, your pitch/marketing and especially your performance, and your customers will let that reputation carry it to repeat business and referrals. Nothing keeps customers in tough times like a Great Bang for the Buck.

The one issue I see that won't go away is "Variety is the spice of life" so the Quest for the Eternal Whore will never be limited to past acquaintances .... got to keep moving cause there's always a hotter piece of ass around the next bend.

And it cuts the other way ... when you've got a c*ck and skills like mine, you just have to keep sharing it.

[Guest082216-1]

Damn, Sunlover, I had complety forgotton about the importance of referials. That is how I met my first provider. Referials are almost as good as a repeat customer. People who give referials do so knowing their reputation is tied to the provider at some level. Thats a great reminder. How to mine your current customers for more referials. Can it be done, would it upset your customer to ask for some? Would your current customers be willing to share you? Etc. Now that could be a good thread as well. Why dont you start one or I will if you dont mind.