If the Feds Won't Do It...

[WTF]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI7-a...eature=related


Forty years ago there were five workers for every retiree. Now there are three. Within a couple of decades, there will be only two workers per retiree. There's no way just two workers will be able or willing to pay enough payroll taxes to keep benefits flowing to every retiree.
This is where immigration comes in. Most immigrants are young because the impoverished countries they come from are demographically the opposite of rich countries. Rather than aging populations, their populations are bursting with young people.
Yes, I know: There aren't enough jobs right now even for Americans who want and need them. But once the American economy recovers, there will be. Take a long-term view and most new immigrants to the U.S. will be working for many decades.
Get it? One logical way to deal with the crisis of funding Social Security and Medicare is to have more workers per retiree, and the simplest way to do that is to allow more immigrants into the United States.
Immigration reform and entitlement reform have a lot to do with one another.

http://readersupportednews.com/opinion/82-economy/1461-more-immigrants-could-fix-entitlement-mess

[pjorourke]

WTF, you are missing the point. Nobody is saying that there is anything wrong with immigration. We are a nation of immigrants -- people with the genes to get up off their ass and go better their life. Its a good thing. The complaints to various degrees are:

1) Illegal immigrants. We set limits and quotas for reasons (not always rational) but its our country and we (through our representatives) get to make the laws. Now enforce the damn laws and keep these people out -- whether they are coming in over the southern border or flying in on tourist visa and staying.

2) Assimilate. Every wave of immigrants before you did. This isn't Italy, Iran, India or Mexico. Throw a little spice in the gumbo, but become part of us. Dont expect us to provide every service in your language. English is ours -- learn it and use it. Learn our laws and traditions. If yours were so damn important, you should have stayed home.

3) The level of the immigrants. This is an advanced economy. We don't have a lot of need/jobs for people without any skills. Yes, there are some areas (e.g., agriculture) where there is a need for temporary workers, but that is what they should be -- temporary. Just because we let you in to pick a few tomatoes, doesn't mean you get to bring an extended family of 43 people that will chew up social services. Leave them at home. Come here, earn some good money (relative to what you can get at home) and go back.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

Used to, Mexican men used to be able to go back and forth across the boarder pretty easily. They would work here for three to six months and go home to the wife and kids. Now that we’ve clamped down on the boarder, they are stuck here so they bring the wife and kidos with them. Unfortunately that means that otherwise Mexican babies are being born here and are now Americans. The whole process wasn’t really thought through when our government clamped down on a problem with force instead of forethought.

.

Originally Posted by pjorourke

2) Assimilate. ....... Learn our traditions. If yours were so damn important, you should have stayed home.

3) The level of the immigrants. This is an advanced economy. We don't have a lot of need/jobs for people without any skills. Yes, there are some areas (e.g., agriculture) where there are need for temporary workers, but thats what they should be -- temporary.

Skill set of immigrants....I'm not sure we need all PhD's entering the country (although we should continue to open our doors to those with unique skills). There are a great many no/low-skilled jobs in this Country that, frankly, educated, skilled Americans don't want to do.

That is why I favor a broad guest worker program for documented aliens. As Olivia points out shutting the border has resulted in all or nothing forays for illegals. I'll suggest many don't cross for a chance at the American Dream; just economic survival. They don't want to leave behind mami & papi, their hometown, their traditions and customs; they just want to eat.

[Marcus Aurelius]

The jobs US citizens don't want to do. Hmmm. It's because these jobs are underpaid. Pay a decent wage and there you go.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius

The jobs US citizens don't want to do. Hmmm. It's because these jobs are underpaid. Pay a decent wage and there you go.

Market forces should determine wages. (PERIOD)

btw, a documented guest worker program would raise wages across the board for a whole class of jobs, as employers would have less leverage over documented vs. illegal workers

[Marcus Aurelius]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

Market forces should determine wages. (PERIOD)

Not if cheap labor keeps coming in by the van full.

[atlcomedy]

What do you propose, Marcus?

Should restaurants pay US Citizens $20/hour + benefits to bus tables?

Certainly you learned something from your neighbors to the North in the Auto Industry about what happens to businesses that pay more than their business model allows for labor. (and before some smartass responds, "Yeah, a bailout!" I'll nip that one in the bud.)

[Marcus Aurelius]

The auto unions are the very worst representation of unions and workers compensation. Total greed and "fuck you" to anyone else.
I can remember when union reps would sell jobs and have people fired a week before their probation was up so they could sell the position again. Evil.

[Willen]

I would suggest that for decades now 'market forces' have indeed been determining the size and nature of the labor supply for low paying work. We call that force "illegal immigration," or if you prefer "undocumented workers." Supply is meeting demand, 'efficiently' in an economic sense. However we all think the current method sucks.

Good luck 'securing' borders, absent a realistic labor policy. Unless we're either willing to absorb sharply higher labor costs to attract more domestic workers (a prospect I seen no chance of coming about, even if we could assume that domestic workers would take those jobs) or we allow for legal access to a sufficient number of foreign workers to fill our needs at more less existing wage rates, then illegal albor will find its way across our barriers just as money, drugs and other items have done.

For what it's worth (and that's probably not much) I think there's no realistic alternative to recognizing the folks who are here (because we aren't going to deport however many million of them there are), continue our efforts to make it difficult to enter ilelgally, and increase legal guest workers to meet the needs we have. There are excellent arguments against doing each of these things, but I don't see how we align law/policy with reality on any other basis.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

That is why I favor a broad guest worker program for documented aliens. As Olivia points out shutting the border has resulted in all or nothing forays for illegals.

Well there is something on which we agree.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius

It's because these jobs are underpaid. Pay a decent wage and there you go.

Jobs are by definition priced at what they are worth, or they won't be filled. The problem is when some people think they are worth more. Simple solution -- don't take the job.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

btw, a documented guest worker program would raise wages across the board for a whole class of jobs, as employers would have less leverage over documented vs. illegal workers

Agreed!

[pjorourke]

Of course, one of the upsides to having such a high unemployment rate is there are plenty of people looking for work that we could hire to build a massive fence along the southern border. (Imagine that! A construction project without Mexican labor. ) Think of it as being the modern equivalent of the Hoover Dam.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

Jobs are by definition priced at what they are worth, or they won't be filled. The problem is when some people think they are worth more. Simple solution -- don't take the job.

I don't agree. If I could make 8 times my current salary by jumping the boarder I would too. Jobs are priced at what an employer can get away with.

[pjorourke]

No that is a different point. Your labor is worth 8x more across the border, because of the context of that job -- which is different than the one where you are -- i.e., a different job. The job in your country is priced right.