A post for Olivia H and Luxury Daphne, and anyone else who cared to ask

[WTF]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

Oh shit THAT'S it! The Mommy Track coming in now, according to the social anthropologist WTF, at Reason 1.5. Followed closely by women being too fucking stupid to wait for a better offer or some shit like that. Maybe it was go on strike.................Errr... .............something like that - kinda-ish.....................

Originally Posted by LilMynx69

I don't doubt that execs interviewed claimed that some women slept their way to the "top." However, I'd bet just about anything that these instances are more likely Urban Legend than truth.

I've NEVER known a woman who slept with someone to get ahead that had a truly favorable outcome.

Interesting that two women who shall we say , sleep around to improve their financial situation ( I assume you both entered this business for that reason, correct me if I'm wrong) find it hard to believe that other women do not use their sexual prowess in the workforce.

Were either of you two willing to engage in a meaningful discussion on the subject , you will have seen that gender bias pay gap have been accounted for except for a small %.

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

Oh shit THAT'S it! The Mommy Track coming in now, according to the social anthropologist WTF, at Reason 1.5......................

That is what the research suggest. That you do not like the results is just showing your bias. Or as SpiceItUp would say...

Originally Posted by SpiceItUp

. That's why the issue is curious to labor economists and also why the unaccounted for difference is often lazily attributed to discrimination.

.

Two former working girls walk into a bar with their shirts buttoned down and skirts hiked up hoping to get free drinks discussing how crazy it is for men to believe women use their sexual prowess in the workforce.....













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[Old-T]

Originally Posted by LilMynx69

I don't doubt that execs interviewed claimed that some women slept their way to the "top." However, I'd bet just about anything that these instances are more likely Urban Legend than truth.

I've NEVER known a woman who slept with someone to get ahead that had a truly favorable outcome.

Your last point about the ultimate benefit or not of using sex as a tool is a good one. It was not something our studies looked at--we only looked at a snapshot in time. The women in the study would need to be followed over time, and we did not. That is not what our sponsoring agencies asked for. I hope someone does.


OK, time to clarify because it looks like this has been stretched beyond the reasonable interpretation of what I tried to say.

1. Truth of the interview data. Interviews are always suspect to one degree or another, as I stated originally. We used them because other data was not available for parts, and we corroborated where we could.

2. We never brought up the topic of sex as a tool to advance. The question was far more open ended, along the lines of, "What factors do you believe influenced getting to where you are?" (those were not the exact words). When it was brought up it was the WOMEN, not the men, who did so.

3. Nowhere did I say it was "the majority of women", or "most women", or "many women". I said some women brought it up. Olivia then seemed to interpret this as I was claiming it was all/most. No, I clearly did not explain it well. What I tried to say was: OF THE WOMEN WHO SAID THEY USED SEX AS A TOOL FOR ADVANCEMENT, we had a hard time identifying whether it was actually their initiation of the men.

4. This part has gotten a lot of push back from many who read the analysis, but there is no question that we got those responses from women, and in a significant number of them the information they gave us correlated with hard data we could find.

5. This is a growing trend from what we found. Women entering the management/technical type tracks are more willing to use casual sex as a tool--and are more open about casual sex as a whole (at least these women, as answered in follow-up questions). It also seems to be a trend in that age group to NOT see a more permanent mistress type arrangement as an acceptable (or maybe it's not see it as an effective) way to move up.

So no, I made no comment that all/most/half/many women have slept their way to the top. I did say some women use it as a part of their tactics. One at least likened it to "Our equivalent of joining Augusta's golf club" (not an exact quote).

I don't always (or even often) agree with WTF, but in this case I do wonder why ANYONE on here would find it so unusual to use sex as one way to improve their situation. I would have thought that mindset would be more understood here, not less.

Oh well. What we found is what we found. And the fact that it disagrees with people's individual experiences does not shock me any more. The level of Olivia's anger does.

[Guest062114-5]

Originally Posted by WTF

Interesting that two women who shall we say , sleep around to improve their financial situation ( I assume you both entered this business for that reason, correct me if I'm wrong) find it hard to believe that other women do not use their sexual prowess in the workforce.

I know it happens, it happens a bunch, but every single time I've seen it, it did not end well.

It's almost a cliche in my circle of friends...young female associate sleeps with married partner at law firm...starts getting the best work and moves up the ladder...then at some point....BOOM...it all blows up and she's shipped off to another firm as a lateral transfer. So, I guess that's not a total fail, but it is when everyone knows about it.

Overall, I don't disagree that women use sex to manipulate men for their own gain, my point is that its success is very limited.

Me using sexuality to improve my PERSONAL situation has little to do with this conversation.

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by WTF

Interesting that two women who shall we say , sleep around to improve their financial situation ( I assume you both entered this business for that reason, correct me if I'm wrong) find it hard to believe that other women do not use their sexual prowess in the workforce.

They may in whatever industry you are in, but in general, no they don’t. If they were so inclined, they’d be actively involved in one form or another of hooking. Old-T was not only way off base, but in my opinion way out of line when he said that. Basically, he was calling all women whores.

What I can tell you about women having sex with their bosses is it ends badly for them and it’s well known it ends badly. If it’s found out, the woman is the one that gets fired. I’ve never known a woman to sleep her way up the ladder from receptionist to VP in all my years in Corporate USA. I’ve known them to sleep their way into child support. I’ve known them to sleep their way into not ever getting fired from whatever pink collar job they have. But never sleeping their way to promotion.

Serious question: Why are you more willing to believe some guy’s data from the internets that’s based on antidotal evidence and not an actual woman’s antidotal evidence? And secondly, why would you believe some guy in the internets that refuses to produce said evidence and study?

Originally Posted by WTF

Were either of you two willing to engage in a meaningful discussion on the subject , you will have seen that gender bias pay gap have been accounted for except for a small %.

I am willing to participate in a meaningful discussion. I do not think the numbers that you two are discussing are that insignificant. According to the numbers you and Spice were batting around female equity partners at LAW firms – imagine the inequality of pay if the ones getting paid less weren’t LAWYERS – are paid 89%. You’ve also talked about 7%. But you are talking about the educated classes and those at or near the top of the food chain. The big inequality is in the working and middle classes. That is STILL Seventy cents on the dollar. Stop focusing on the wealthiest and pay attention to the masses.

Originally Posted by WTF

That is what the research suggest. That you do not like the results is just showing your bias. Or as SpiceItUp would say...

Two former working girls walk into a bar with their shirts buttoned down and skirts hiked up hoping to get free drinks discussing how crazy it is for men to believe women use their sexual prowess in the workforce.....

I do not accept free drinks in a bar from men. I’m not that cheap.

Originally Posted by Old-T

Your last point about the ultimate benefit or not of using sex as a tool is a good one. It was not something our studies looked at--we only looked at a snapshot in time. The women in the study would need to be followed over time, and we did not. That is not what our sponsoring agencies asked for. I hope someone does.


OK, time to clarify because it looks like this has been stretched beyond the reasonable interpretation of what I tried to say.

1. Truth of the interview data. Interviews are always suspect to one degree or another, as I stated originally. We used them because other data was not available for parts, and we corroborated where we could.

Useless antidotes especially given you said that they would probably be refuted with hard evidence in a few years.

Originally Posted by Old-T

2. We never brought up the topic of sex as a tool to advance. The question was far more open ended, along the lines of, "What factors do you believe influenced getting to where you are?" (those were not the exact words). When it was brought up it was the WOMEN, not the men, who did so.

Women who got passed over you mean. Please.

Originally Posted by Old-T

3. Nowhere did I say it was "the majority of women", or "most women", or "many women". I said some women brought it up. Olivia then seemed to interpret this as I was claiming it was all/most. No, I clearly did not explain it well. What I tried to say was: OF THE WOMEN WHO SAID THEY USED SEX AS A TOOL FOR ADVANCEMENT, we had a hard time identifying whether it was actually their initiation of the men.

Don’t insult my intelligence. We are talking about major mitigating factors in why women do not receive equal pay. In the list of three things you brought up, women whoring their way to the top was one of them. I believe you even added the sweet touch of “Let’s not forget…………”

Originally Posted by Old-T

4. This part has gotten a lot of push back from many who read the analysis, but there is no question that we got those responses from women, and in a significant number of them the information they gave us correlated with hard data we could find.

I don’t believe you. I don’t believe you at all. I think this is a lot of pre-conceived notions from you and your associates – men and women. I’ve been clear all along that I think women are women’s worst enemies. I think when you heard some sour grapes man or women that got passed over say it’s because Suzie the Slut was fucking the boss you seized the opportunity to validate your own excuses for lack of advancement. I am telling you from my experience, it is impossible to sleep your way to the top, and I’ve told you why.

Originally Posted by Old-T

5. This is a growing trend from what we found. Women entering the management/technical type tracks are more willing to use casual sex as a tool--and are more open about casual sex as a whole (at least these women, as answered in follow-up questions). It also seems to be a trend in that age group to NOT see a more permanent mistress type arrangement as an acceptable (or maybe it's not see it as an effective) way to move up.

What and where is your hard evidence. You don’t have any do you.

Originally Posted by Old-T

So no, I made no comment that all/most/half/many women have slept their way to the top. I did say some women use it as a part of their tactics. One at least likened it to "Our equivalent of joining Augusta's golf club" (not an exact quote).

Don’t, just don’t. Produce your evidence or accept my summation of your view of the issue.

Originally Posted by Old-T

I don't always (or even often) agree with WTF, but in this case I do wonder why ANYONE on here would find it so unusual to use sex as one way to improve their situation. I would have thought that mindset would be more understood here, not less.

Originally Posted by Old-T

Oh well. What we found is what we found. And the fact that it disagrees with people's individual experiences does not shock me any more. The level of Olivia's anger does.

You listed fucking the way to the board room, which never happens BTW, as one of three reasons women were advanced at the same rate as men in the 1970’s. Both assertions are patently stupid. Women in the seventies and eighties were not advanced at the same rate as men. There is real evidence to support that claim unlike your antidotal evidence in some unknown study commissioned by someone somewhere and refuted by hard assed congresswomen that couldn’t poke holes in your bullshit, alleged paper. Then, than you very much, you say on of the very few reasons you produced is because women are whores and fucked their way over qualified men in an era where women weren’t being promoted to anything but Office Manager – IF that. I’d rather listen to WTF’s ADD, disjointed ramblings cum rantings than your condescending bullshit. You’re time has come and gone, and that makes you bitter.

On top of all that, you two still haven’t addressed the middle, working and poorest classes of women where all this advancement research means nothing and they are still working for thirty percent what their male counterparts are working for. Or that inconvenient little statistic that single mothers and their children are the largest demographic in poverty.

[Guest062114-5]

I also forgot to say that I may be biased because I've never had to sleep with anyone professionally to get ahead.

I'm simply smarter than all the men I work with at my job. They know it and they accept it...I make them a lot of money so everyone is happy.

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by LilMynx69

I know it happens, it happens a bunch, but every single time I've seen it, it did not end well.

It's almost a cliche in my circle of friends...young female associate sleeps with married partner at law firm...starts getting the best work and moves up the ladder...then at some point....BOOM...it all blows up and she's shipped off to another firm as a lateral transfer. So, I guess that's not a total fail, but it is when everyone knows about it.

EXACLY, if they don't get outright fired! It cracks me up to hear two men that have no clue talk about how and what it is to be a woman in the professional world.

Originally Posted by LilMynx69

Overall, I don't disagree that women use sex to manipulate men for their own gain, my point is that its success is very limited.

Professionally it is. As a private matter, and let's face it the demimonde is a hobby for men so it is their private vs professional life, y'all are manipulated every fucking day and effectively by women using sex as a tool.

Originally Posted by LilMynx69

Me using sexuality to improve my PERSONAL situation has little to do with this conversation.

Correct, working girls or savvy women of the world using men and sex for monetary gain in their private / personal lives is something entirely different.

Originally Posted by LilMynx69

I also forgot to say that I may be biased because I've never had to sleep with anyone professionally to get ahead.

I'm simply smarted than all the men I work with at my job. They know it and they accept it...I make them a lot of money so everyone is happy.

Neither did I. I was just good at what I did.

I can also say I've never seen it work successfully for women overall. Of all the times I've seen it - hundreds of times - only two worked out. One, the woman married one of the owners. Had two kids. He fucked anything with two legs. She got cancer. He left her when she was sick. The judge awarded her a vey disproportionate amount of the community. The second one was a gal that got pregnant by a minority owner of a start up that was bought for over two hundred million dollars. He didn't want a divorce after he became a multi-millionaire. She made out well. But all the other occasions, not so well..............

[Guest062114-5]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

EXACLY, if they don't get outright fired! It cracks me up to hear two men that have no clue talk about how and what it is to be a woman in the professional world.



Professionally it is. As a private matter, and let's face it the demimonde is a hobby for men so it is their private vs professional life, y'all are manipulated every fucking day and effectively by women using sex as a tool.



Correct, working girls or savvy women of the world using men and sex for monetary gain in their private / personal lives is something entirely different.

A smart woman uses her best tool to get ahead in whatever situation. In my professional life, my strongest assets is my brain. Some women may have to use their vagina, but the fact is, that if you're smart, you don't have to and you know that it will eventually blow up.

Additionally, female CEOs actually have to be smart enough to run the company. When you get to the top, you run out of guys to sleep with...then what?

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by LilMynx69

A smart woman uses her best tool to get ahead in whatever situation. In my professional life, my strongest assets is my brain. Some women may have to use their vagina, but the fact is, that if you're smart, you don't have to and you know that it will eventually blow up.

Additionally, female CEOs actually have to be smart enough to run the company. When you get to the top, you run out of guys to sleep with...then what?

Exactly.

[SpiceItUp]

I'd agree that we have no way of knowing who initiates what and their true motives for doing so when it comes to sex with co-workers occupying different levels on the org chart. Often times sex is just sex

As Mynx said, whenever I've seen it personally it always ends in disaster, a transfer, or one of them leaves the company almost always the junior one. It's pretty hard to quantify the net benefit overall.

I found an interesting 2010 Harvard Business Review website article entitled, "How Sex Hurts the Workplace, Especially Women" which cites a study done by the Center for Work Life Policy.

Studies like this are hard to rely on for drawing robust conclusions because of their subjective nature and often small sizes and non random or representative samples. Unfortunately, the study itself isn't published anywhere I could find so we have no way of knowing the statistical significance or the methodology used and number of respondents, but it was interesting regardless.

Highlights include:

• 15% of women at director level or above admitted to having had an affair with the boss
• 34% of executve women claim they know a female colleaugue who has done so
• 37% claim that the woman involved received a career boost as a consequence
• 61% of men and 70% of women lose respect for a leader involved in an affair
• 60% of male executives and 65% of female executives suspect that salary hikes and plum assignments are being traded for sexual favors
• 48% of men and 56% of women feel animosity towards the involved couple
• 29% of women and 37% of women see a fall off in productivity as the team splinters

[Guest050715-1]

The only statistics in that list that have an acceptable margin of error are the statistics where an individual was referring to their own behaviors of thoughts.

• 34% of executive women CLAIM they know a female collegue that did so. Did what, had an affair or uses sex for advancement.
• 37% CLAIM the woman involved received a career boost. How is that quantified? And how is it proven that the claim is true?

The other statistics, describe an individual’s own experiences and / or feelings. And, of the 15% of all women said they have had an affair with a boss, it doesn't say if it was for advancement or not.

[SpiceItUp]

On a side note there's nothing sexier than a woman with beauty AND brains

[Guest050715-1]

[WTF]

Oh my goodness another data point supporting Old-T ......I do love how Olivia has never adressed her contention that male chauvinism is some how at the root of this. Yes Olivia i realize that is not exactly wtf you said but I have already reposted what you implied.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by SpiceItUp

On a side note there's nothing sexier than a woman with beauty AND brains

Better be careful you're going to get tagged a male chauvinist

[WTF]

My guess is pay gap differences because of male chauvinist or women sleeping their way up is both equally common. Which is to say....not very.