Our race to the bottom continues...

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by Laz

I think it is safe to assume that there are more people in the world that want the opportunity available here than this economy could possibly support. Given that we have an olbligation to provide opportunity for US workers first. If that means a reduced number of visas then so be it.


We cannot hold the source countries accountable for the conditions in their own country. Without taking control and changing them to a free market economy without massive coruption we can't do anything nor should we try. It is up to the people of those nations to demand a change. We cannot and should not try to impose that change. All we can do is be an example.

You are absolutely right, "we" cannot hold them accountable. That's up to the people living in those countries. However, as long as we continue to take millions of disenfranchised people in, no pressure builds from within the population of their home countries to force those governments to change.
Take Egypt for example. It wasn't just a difference in politics that caused the recent uprising there. Part of it was the fact that thousands of university educated young people couldn't find decent paying jobs. They knew their government was corrupt. Where were they gonna go? Palestine? Jordan? Lebanon? They knew that realistically they had no better place to go so they took it upon themselves to bring about change and toppled a corrupt regime. Honestly, in the long run, what's better for the people of Mexico? That they get a decent, less corrupt government that provides them a fair living wage and way of life, or that they will forever be forced to emigrate from their country in hopes of a better future? If enough pressure builds within Mexico, change can take place. It's happened in the past. It won't happen however as long as we provide a convenient escape valve for that pressure.



The only way to stop illegal immigration is to remove the incentives. If caught they are deported immediately and have no chance of legally coming here in the future. No jobs available because employer penalties make unprofitable and employers have a legal way of easily meeting their needs. No social or government services available. If sick they are stabalized and shipped home. No education for kids. If anchor baby exists send the baby home with the parents. Once the child is old enough the child only can return to the US if desired. The other option is to change the law so that simply being born in the US does not grant citizenship.

I agree with all the above. I do believe and have agreed with you and others that employer penalties are a big part of finding a way to slow down the amount of illegal immigration.

Those items would make conditions here for illegal aliens bad enough that it would not be worth coming here illegally. The things above would also apply to those here illegally now after a grace period that allows them the opportunity to get work visas. If they leave voluntarily they have the option of returning through a legal process. If not and they are caught then they are permanently denied entry.

Agreed.

That would only leave criminals to protect the borders from. They can be hunted more aggressively without compassion.

.

[F-Sharp]

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

Now I can already guess what you're going to say. Why PAY to deport those already here only to allow more in with work visas? If you can show me a reliable process by which we could account for and then complete the necessary criminal checks on those already here, issue them visas etc by all means, I'd be all for that. The other points above would still stand including the strengthening of our border. You have to be able to get to a point in this country where we can differentiate between who is here legally and who is not. If you're not, then deportation would await.

No. What I am going to say is I am completely baffled by your logic. You stated a few posts back that even $1.00 spent on illegals was too much, yet your willing to bankrupt large parts of America completely in order to deport them.

I laid out some numbers some time ago in these discussions, but have you ever thought what it would cost to locate, incarcerate and ultimately deport 12 -20 million people? Let's say your theory is correct and that as much as half leave on their own, that's still 6 - 10 million folks...three to five times the amount of people in our entire prison system currently.

Where you going to put 6-10 million people? Where you gonna find 3-5 times the judges, lawyers, and clerks to provide deportation hearings for these folks? Where you going to find the detention personell to look after these folks for however long it takes to go through the deportation process? Who's going to pay for the months or even years of detention these folks might face is such a mass deportation scenario was implemented and backed up our legal system for months or even years? Lastly, where are you going to find the personell to locate and arrest these folks, how exactly would that work? Is your plan to hire a few hundred thousand DHS officers, give them a badge, a gun and a standing warrant to go door to door asking people for papers? Do the words "Police State" mean anything to you Captain America?

This doesn't even begin to touch the negative impacts to our economy such a plan would impose. You need to look no further than Arizona for an example of what would happen if such a mass deportation took place.

You forget that not only illegal hispanics have left Arizona, but legal ones as well. In fact, some of my neighbors moved here to Texas specifically because they were being hassled for being latino while living in Phoenix after SB1070 became law, and these folks are U.S. citizens.

As much as you claim financial burden, you consistently make it obvious that the monetary aspect of having these people here is not actually of any concern to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es3hq...layer_embedded

"The University of Arizona's Udall Center for Studies in Public Policy estimates that the total economic output attributable to Arizona's immigrant workers was $44 billion in 2004, which sustained roughly 400,000 full-time jobs. Furthermore, over 35,000 businesses in Arizona are Latino-owned and had sales and receipts of $4.3 billion and employed 39,363 people in 2002, the last year for which data is available. The Perryman Group estimates that if all unauthorized immigrants were removed from Arizona, the state would lose $26.4 billion in economic activity, $11.7 billion in gross state product, and approximately 140,324 jobs, even accounting for adequate market adjustment time. Putting economic contributions of this magnitude at risk during a time of recession would not serve Arizona well."

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

"The University of Arizona's Udall Center for Studies in Public Policy estimates that the total economic output attributable to Arizona's immigrant workers was $44 billion in 2004, which sustained roughly 400,000 full-time jobs. Furthermore, over 35,000 businesses in Arizona are Latino-owned and had sales and receipts of $4.3 billion and employed 39,363 people in 2002, the last year for which data is available.

Who here had a problem with Latino owned businesses? Certainly not me. I support business owners of all races as long as they are here legally.

The Perryman Group estimates that if all unauthorized immigrants were removed from Arizona, the state would lose $26.4 billion in economic activity, $11.7 billion in gross state product, and approximately 140,324 jobs, even accounting for adequate market adjustment time. Putting economic contributions of this magnitude at risk during a time of recession would not serve Arizona well."

Hmmm, wonder what those numbers would look like if....let's just say......1/2 of those jobs vacated by illegals were taken by U.S. citizens or legal residents (of any race or background),
the non-reimbursed health care costs were figured in, incarceration costs, economic loss due to crimes committed, and the savings in SSI and other benefits currently paid to many illegal aliens. Bet that would change the numbers a bit!

.

[F-Sharp]

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

Who here had a problem with Latino owned businesses? Certainly not me. I support business owners of all races as long as they are here legally.

You do, but many don't, especially in Arizona. Ever lived there? I have, for two years. It has the most racist population I have ever seen in the United States. I witnessed plenty of hillbilly types in pickup trucks yelling racial profanities at both mexicans and asians innocently walking down the street in Phoenix. I've was even questioned once by some jackass biker type in a bar about my date that night who happened to be black. Remember that 30% of all of Arizona consists of Latinos. I know if I were latino and living in Arizona post SB1070, I would pack my shit and leave just like my citizen neighbors did.

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

Hmmm, wonder what those numbers would look like if....let's just say......1/2 of those jobs vacated by illegals were taken by U.S. citizens or legal residents (of any race or background),
the non-reimbursed health care costs were figured in, incarceration costs, economic loss due to crimes committed, and the savings in SSI and other benefits currently paid to many illegal aliens. Bet that would change the numbers a bit!

No need to wonder, I've posted it many times, you've just never bothered to read it.

"Table 18 summarizes the Arizona tax revenues that accrue as a result of immigrants in Arizona’s workforce. The economic output that these workers generate also generates tax revenues which would not accrue absent that output. We see that approximately $2.4 billion in tax revenues can be attributable to immigrants as workers.

Balanced against the $1.4 billion in estimated fiscal costs, there is a positive fiscal impact of approximately $940 million, most of which is in the form of sales and business taxes"

http://udallcenter.arizona.edu/immig...migrants08.pdf

And incidentally, the uninsured legal residents of Arizona FAR outnumber the illlegal population there, to the tune of 1.2 million people. That's over 18% of the entire population of Arizona.

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/prof...3&sub=40&rgn=4

Lastly, legal residents FAR outnumber illegals incarcerated in Arizona. Whites and blacks alone make up 77% of Arizona's prison population.

http://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/AZ_incrates2001.html

I am beginning to think you live in some fantasy world where a country without illegal aliens is without problems. All evidence points to the contrary in that you'd be creating far more problems than you'd be solving.