Our race to the bottom continues...

[DTorrchia]

[quote=F-Sharp;1618724]I know you were being specific, but to me it's irrelevant if it all goes in to the same pot.



That's far less than the top ten tax-dodging corporations tax liability would be if not for "creative" accounting and tax loopholes. It's $14 billion less than we pay big oil every year in subsidies. That's roughly the same amount we give away to Egypt and Israel each year in foriegn aid. And that $18 billion less than we spend to incarcerate non-violent offenders each year.

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. What the F*ck does foreign aid to Israel and Egypt have to do with illegal immigration? NOTHING!
So we should NOT try to save 6 BILLION dollars annually on illegal immigration, NOT reduce crime by 700,000 offenses per year, NOT screen immigrants coming to this Country properly because we're spending money on foreign aid? Yep, that makes absolute sense!

Here's an idea. How about we address ALL the issues. How about we put a serious dent in Illegal Immigration and save 6 Billion per year there, prevent the 700,000 crimes per year committed by Illegals and save several MILLION more there (maybe even save some lives and prevent some serious grief for people affected by this), and while we're at it, let's go after the "tax-dodging corporations" too. Is that really such a difficult concept for you to understand? The answer is certainly not to stick out heads in the sand and say...."well, we won't do anything about one problem because there's other problems out there too". That's exactly the kind of back*ss reasoning that landed this Country in the mess we're in now. You do WHAT you can, WHERE you can.

[Laz]

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

I've actually thought about such a process quite a bit. My idea is that a guest worker visa should be an option, taxing both employer and employee for the priviledge. Let's say 5 years with a path to citizenship. First and foremost these folks should be able to pass a basic background check, health exam, and pay any back taxes on wages already earned. From there, tax say 5% - 10% of their income under the guest worker program. This does two things, adds needed revenue to cover the expense of such a program, and also provides incentive for employers to hire legal residents first. There's no way you're ever going to remove 12 - 20 million illegals currently residing within our borders, and even if you did, the economic impact would be devastating. This entire debate about amnesty and "rewarding" so-called criminals only hurts us in the end. At this point these folks are tightly woven in to our economy. We might as well enjoy and make good use of the revenue such a program would create.

My thoughts have been similar but I would make employers cover the cost of the workers visa. I would not have an automatic path to citizenship. They should have to follow the same process as anyone else in the world.

As far as taxes they should pay the same as anyone else with the exception of possibly SS and medicare if they are not eligable for any of those benefits.

I agree on the background and health check but am not to worried about past wages.

Companies should be required by law to hire US citizens first. You have to have some process that allows skills to be considered but in general US citizens get priority.

Companies that hire illegal aliens should face prosecution and penalties that make it to risky to do so. Illegal aliens should not be eligable for any social welfare benefits and when found deported. For a worker visa to remain valid they must be employed. If you do these things you will not need to deport millions of people. The ones we want to stay will get a visa and the rest will leave because it is in their best interest. The remaining few that stay will probably be criminals and we will deal with them as with any criminal. To discourage future illegal immigration have companies that need the workers set up hiring centers in Mexico where they can get jobs and the visa. The companies will probably get better qualified employees that way. Anyone caught coming in illegally is never allowed to be considered for a visa or immigration.

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by Laz

My thoughts have been similar but I would make employers cover the cost of the workers visa. I would not have an automatic path to citizenship. They should have to follow the same process as anyone else in the world.

That's pretty close to the process we already have. Most legal aliens that come to the U.S. are granted legal residency status followed by U.S. Citizenship somewhere around 5 years on average.

As far as taxes they should pay the same as anyone else with the exception of possibly SS and medicare if they are not eligable for any of those benefits.

I agree on the background and health check but am not to worried about past wages.

Companies should be required by law to hire US citizens first. You have to have some process that allows skills to be considered but in general US citizens get priority.

I'm not sure how this would work. If Americans are hired first, wouldn't this lead to a backlog of foreign workers waiting to be hired by U.S. firms and slow down the number of visa's that are successfully obtained? I'm just throwing this out there but in my opinion, this would create the same conditions that lead to much of the illegal immigration we have now, frustration with not having work in their home country and having to wait too long to obtain a legal work visa in the United States.

Companies that hire illegal aliens should face prosecution and penalties that make it to risky to do so. Illegal aliens should not be eligable for any social welfare benefits and when found deported. For a worker visa to remain valid they must be employed. If you do these things you will not need to deport millions of people. The ones we want to stay will get a visa and the rest will leave because it is in their best interest. The remaining few that stay will probably be criminals and we will deal with them as with any criminal. To discourage future illegal immigration have companies that need the workers set up hiring centers in Mexico where they can get jobs and the visa. The companies will probably get better qualified employees that way. Anyone caught coming in illegally is never allowed to be considered for a visa or immigration.

I agree with some of the concepts. Obviously we need a more effective work visa program. However if you force American companies to hire Americans first, I'm not sure what impact that would have on the work visa program. I agree 100% that U.S. companies should be penalized for hiring illegal workers.
My question is this. At what point are the countries of origin for many of these illegal aliens held accountable for the conditions that force many of these people to leave in the first place?
If the disenfranchised of these Countries simply continue to emigrate to the United States, where is the incentive, the pressure etc on the Governments of those Countries to provide better wages, better living conditions etc for their people? As long as those wages and conditions remain substandard, are we really ever going to get a grip on illegal immigration in our Country? Just food for thought.

[F-Sharp]

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

So we should NOT try to save 6 BILLION dollars annually on illegal immigration, NOT reduce crime by 700,000 offenses per year, NOT screen immigrants coming to this Country properly because we're spending money on foreign aid? Yep, that makes absolute sense!

It only doesn't make sense because your logic is completely flawed and your argument is a complete and utter failure.

Our Border Patrol budget currently stands at $11.8 Billion with another $57 billion budget for DHS. How much more money are you going to spend in an order to rid yourself of a $6 billion supposed tax burden by illegals when that $68.8 billion we're already spending is completely ineffective? Point being, it would cost you a whole hell of a lot more than the current supposed tax burden to alleviate it.

Now consider that $7 billion of that so-called Federal tax-burden accounts for little more than enforcement of immigration laws. Take out that $7 billion and now you have no tax burden whatsoever. Now tell us just how much more money in tax dollars are you going to spend to solve a problem that no longer exists?

As for the 700,000 crimes...remember that those 700,000 crimes are being committed by less that 100,000 illegals and a large percentage of those crimes are Federal in nature. My education tells me that you're ALWAYS going to have a percentage of any given population committing crime. In this case we're talking 8/10ths of one percent. You've never explained just how much you believe you're going to reduce that percentage or by what means you would do this. Your plan is what? Border enforcement? How exactly is that going to reduce that percentage if these people are already here? And again, how much in tax dollars are you willing to spend to reduce our prison population by less than one miserable percent?

If you ask me, it's your logic that is "exactly the kind of back*ss reasoning that landed this Country in the mess we're in now", not mine.[/quote]

[DTorrchia]

[quote=F-Sharp;1620746]

It only doesn't make sense because your logic is completely flawed and your argument is a complete and utter failure.

Our Border Patrol budget currently stands at $11.8 Billion with another $57 billion budget for DHS. How much more money are you going to spend in an order to rid yourself of a $6 billion supposed tax burden by illegals when that $68.8 billion we're already spending is completely ineffective? Point being, it would cost you a whole hell of a lot more than the current supposed tax burden to alleviate it.

If we weren't spending 11.8 Billion on Border Patrol, how many MORE illegal immigrants do you think we would have per year? How much would that raise the 6 Billion supposed tax burden? The Border Patrol catches around half a million illegal immigrants per year. That's the ones they physically get their hands on and detain. Ever watch the program Border Wars? Watch one time how many illegals escape back across their border before Border Patrol can put their hands on them. I would propose that upwards of 2 million or more Illegal Aliens would enter this Country annually if it wasn't for the efforts of the Border Patrol. Not sure how you consider that "ineffective".



Now consider that $7 billion of that so-called Federal tax-burden accounts for little more than enforcement of immigration laws. Take out that $7 billion and now you have no tax burden whatsoever. Now tell us just how much more money in tax dollars are you going to spend to solve a problem that no longer exists?

CBS news, not exactly a hotbed for conservatism in this Country, made the following report below, including this excerpt from the Rand Corporation.

Take healthcare for example -- an estimated $1.1 billion per year for undocumented men, women and children, according to the Rand Corporation.

Joe Riley is the CEO of the McAllen Texas Medical Center near the Texas-Mexico border. Forty percent of the children born there, nearly 2,400 last year, were the babies of illegal immigrants.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...in4000401.shtm

Tell us F-Sharp, who picks up the tab for this?

As for the 700,000 crimes...remember that those 700,000 crimes are being committed by less that 100,000 illegals and a large percentage of those crimes are Federal in nature. My education tells me that you're ALWAYS going to have a percentage of any given population committing crime. In this case we're talking 8/10ths of one percent. You've never explained just how much you believe you're going to reduce that percentage or by what means you would do this. Your plan is what? Border enforcement? How exactly is that going to reduce that percentage if these people are already here? And again, how much in tax dollars are you willing to spend to reduce our prison population by less than one miserable percent?

It is estimated the federal cost of incarcerating criminal aliens — Bureau of Prison’s cost to incarcerate criminals and reimbursements to state and local governments under SCAAP — totaled approximately $5.8 billion for calendar years 2001 through 2004. BOP’s cost to incarcerate criminal aliens rose from about $950 million in 2001 to about $1.2 billion in 2004 — a 14 percent increase.
Federal reimbursements for incarcerating criminal aliens in state prisons and local jails declined from $550 million in 2001 to $280 million in 2004, in a large part due to a reduction in congressional appropriations. At the state level, the 50 states received reimbursement for incarcerating about 77,000 criminal aliens in fiscal year 2002 and 47 states received reimbursement for incarcerating about 74,000 in fiscal year 2003.
For the 5 states incarcerating about 80 percent of these criminal aliens in fiscal year 2003, about 68 percent incarcerated in mid-year 2004 reported that the country of citizenship or country of birth as Mexico, the Dominican Republic, or Cuba. Four of these 5 states spent about $1.6 billion to incarcerate criminal aliens reimbursed through SCAAP during fiscal years 2002 and 2003. Estimates are that the federal government reimbursed these four states about 25 percent or less of the estimated cost to incarcerate these criminal aliens in fiscal years 2002 and 2003.
At the local level, in fiscal year 2002, SCAAP reimbursed about 750 local governments for incarcerating about 138,000 criminal aliens. In fiscal year 2003, SCAAP reimbursed about 700 local governments for about 147,000 criminal aliens, with 5 local jail systems accounting for about 30 percent of these criminal aliens. The 147,000 criminal aliens incarcerated during fiscal year 2003 spent a total of about 8.5 million days in jail. Mexico leads as the country of birth for foreign-born arrestees at these 5 local jails in fiscal year 2003.
It’s estimated that 4 of these 5 local jails spent $390 million in fiscal years 2002 and 2003 to incarcerate criminal aliens and were reimbursed about $73 million through SCAAP.

Hmm, let's see. 390 Million - 73 million=317 Million dollars spent by 4 local jails in a ONE year period to incarcerate criminal illegal aliens.

It’s believed that the federal government reimbursed these localities about 25 percent or less of the criminal alien incarceration cost in fiscal years 2002 and 2003.
Sources: US Justice Department, US Bureau of Prisons, General Accountability Office, American Federation of Police, National Association of Chiefs of Police

Let's add up the above to the 1.1 Billion per year in health care costs of Illegal Aliens and you have what?

$5.8 billion for calendar years 2001 through 2004 + 4.4 Billion over the same time period for health care costs=10.2 Billion every 4 years just for incarceration and health care costs of Illegal Aliens.

Also, if you read the above, oftentimes the Federal Government is reimbursing local and state Governments less than 25% of the incarceration costs of these illegal aliens. Guess who picks up the tab for the rest of the incarceration expenses that local and State governments incur?

Yes, I know, insignificant and meaningless to you but not necessarily to all other Americans.

[F-Sharp]

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

Yes, I know, insignificant and meaningless to you but necessarily to all other Americans.

As always, you missed the point. You just write about a thousand words without even remotely addressing the questions. But since you've changed your argument once again, I'll change the questions. How much more of taxpayer's money are you willing to spend to alleviate $1.1 billion in healthcare expenses for illegals? How much more taxpayer money are you going to spend to alleviate $10.2 billion in incarceration costs over four years?

So there's no mistake and you go writing another thousand words on a completely unrelated topic, the point is this: Both of those problems will cost you far more to solve than the problems themselves. If they didn't, we'd have solved those problems long ago.

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

As always, you missed the point. You just write about a thousand words without even remotely addressing the questions.

But since you've changed your argument once again, I'll change the questions. How much more of taxpayer's money are you willing to spend to alleviate $1.1 billion in healthcare expenses for illegals? How much more taxpayer money are you going to spend to alleviate $10.2 billion in incarceration costs over four years?

So there's no mistake and you go writing another thousand words on a completely unrelated topic, the point is this: Both of those problems will cost you far more to solve than the problems themselves. If they didn't, we'd have solved those problems long ago.

You don't always have to spend more to get more. Case in point.
U.S. Army units stationed in Germany frequently rotated to the East German/West German and the Czech- West German border.
Our troops here in the United States are being paid whether they sit inside their bases like Ft. Hood or we authorize them to patrol the U.S./Mexico Border. More bang for the buck so to speak.
Short enough for you to follow?

[F-Sharp]

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

You don't always have to spend more to get more. Case in point.
U.S. Army units stationed in Germany frequently rotated to the East German/West German and the Czech- West German border.
Our troops here in the United States are being paid whether they sit inside their bases like Ft. Hood or we authorize them to patrol the U.S./Mexico Border. More bang for the buck so to speak.
Short enough for you to follow?

Huh? How in the hell is putting troops on the border going to solve incarceration and healthcare expenses for the 12-20 million illegals already here? I'm not sure you've thought this through very well, and it has nothing to do with it being kept short. Take your time, think about it a little bit, then type.

You're so funny when you've been talked in to a corner.

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

As always, you missed the point.

LOL, that's the pot calling the kettle black!
Let's see, if you had bothered to to actually READ some of my posts, you would know that:
1. I support a better foreign worker visa program to allow more qualified and screened foreign workers to come to the U.S.A.
2. I support offering the option of citizenship to those who come here legally, commit no crime and fulfill the usual citizenship requirements including time lived here.
3. I support a strong border to help stop the flow of ILLEGAL immigration and all the problems that come associated with it.
4. I support penalties for U.S Companies that hire illegal workers
5. I believe that if you come to this Country, you should learn to speak English.


How these views make me a racist, how you somehow think you're smarter than others because you have different views on these matters, I really don't know.

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

Huh? How in the hell is putting troops on the border going to solve incarceration and healthcare expenses for the 12-20 million illegals already here? I'm not sure you've thought this through very well, and it has nothing to do with it being kept short. Take your time, think about it a little bit, then type.

Since you brought up the costs associated with Border Patrol and Homeland Security, I was addressing the fact that we don't necessarily have to increase costs substantially to make an impact on illegal immigration.
You're not a Rocket Scientist for pointing out the OBVIOUS. Of course increasing our security at the border won't help with the costs we have for the illegals aliens already in our Country. What it WILL do is reduce the numbers of illegals coming into the country therefor keeping the costs from rising ever higher. Is that REALLY such a difficult concept to grasp? You think by posting a picture of Bush you someone can duck from the truth?
Are you turning into such a fraud that you're going to pretend that when we spoke of illegal immigration, you didn't comprehend why I was pointing out the current costs of illegal immigration?
Were we really trying to figure out how to minimize the cost of those already here or where we talking about how we can keep those costs from continuing to rise. In case your memory is fuzzy here's what I said not too long ago:
No nation can sustain itself over the long run if it doesn't control immigration. Simply letting millions of undocumented people stream across your border, year after year and handing out federal benefits to them is simply a disaster in the making.

You know very well that the reason current costs were discussed is to put into context what it's costing our nation annually and why it isn't fiscally smart to continue to allow those costs to rise more and more each year.
I addressed the illegal immigration that's directly linked to those rising costs. If you want to play completely stupid go ahead, just don't ask me to join in. I know and you know what we've been discussing over various threads in relation to illegal immigration and the costs associated with it in our Country.

You're so funny when you've been talked in to a corner.

Aren't you though?!

[F-Sharp]

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

Of course increasing our security at the border won't help with the costs we have for the illegals aliens already in our Country.

If that's the case, then why did you say it would in this post?

http://www.eccie.net/showpost.php?p=...2&postcount=97

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

Were we really trying to figure out how to minimize the cost of those already here or where we talking about how we can keep those costs from continuing to rise.

Ah, I dunno D, you tell me. Go read my questions again along with your response and get back to me on it. Maybe you just didn't understand the questions? Please refer to #5 on your previous list.

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

[/color] [/color]

If that's the case, then why did you say it would in this post?

http://www.eccie.net/showpost.php?p=...2&postcount=97

Why did I write that we can secure our borders more effectively than we currently are if we supplemented the low number of Border Patrol Agents with U.S. troops? Troops we are currently are already paying salaries and benefits for?
Are you trying to narrow down the immigration debate we're having to the last 4 posts or to the debate we've been having on that same issue as a whole for the last few weeks??




Ah, I dunno D, you tell me. Go read my questions again along with your response and get back to me on it. Maybe you just didn't understand the questions? Please refer to #5 on your previous list.

Apparently you need help in English comprehension so let me spell it out for you.
Let's just combine all the threads where we've been discussing the issue of illegal immigration.
My points have ALWAYS been:
1. Illegal Immigration costs our Country Billions of dollars annually.
2. It is fiscally irresponsible for our Country to allow millions of illegal aliens to continue to pour across our border and provide them with SSI, hospital care and bear the cost of incarcerating the criminal element among them.
3. It is irresponsible from a national security standpoint to allow millions of people to pour across our borders without even the most rudimentary of background checks.
4. Unprotected borders increase the amount of illegal narcotics that are smuggled into our country annually with the resulting increase in violence that these types of activities bring.
5. United States property owners living in border counties have the right for their property and persons to be safe from thousands of people trespassing on their legal property.
You wouldn't allow it in your house F-Sharp. I've mentioned this before and of course you've never provided an intelligent reply. If you don't agree, then why aren't YOU providing your House, providing medical attention and employing and paying a monthly allowance to illegal aliens in YOUR home? Yet you feel property owners living in South Texas should have no rights in preventing thousands of Illegal Aliens from trespassing on their property, trashing their property and damaging their property.

Play all the silly games you want. Those points have not changed.

[F-Sharp]

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

Are you trying to narrow down the immigration debate we're having to the last 4 posts or to the debate we've been having on that same issue as a whole for the last few weeks??

I'm not trying to do anything. The questions and your lack of responses to them speak for themselves. The only person here talking about the "last four weeks of discussions" is you, doing the same damn thing you always do, deflecting every time you get talked in to corner.

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

Let's just combine all the threads where we've been discussing the issue of illegal immigration.

Let's not, and let's have you stick to one topic at a time for a change. I've grown tired of your lists of long since defeated or irrelevant topics.

In case you're not familiar:

"A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position"

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

I'm not trying to do anything. The questions and your lack of responses to them speak for themselves. The only person here talking about the "last four weeks of discussions" is you, doing the same damn thing you always do, deflecting every time you get talked in to corner.

Since you seem incapable to remember more than 2-3 posts back, or maybe you're simply turning senile, I'll answer the same question AGAIN.
I had already mentioned that I am FOR Deportation. If the Government wants to grant a certain number of immediate work visas to lessen the impact, fine, but I would drastically step up the deportation rates of Illegal Aliens. Impose time limits on the work visas granted.
Impose penalties on Employers that employ Illegal Aliens.
As I've told you before, it's been shown in prior mass Deportations that once the Government shows it's serious, many Illegal Aliens leave on their own accord. That is undisputed and no amount of your game playing is going to change that.
You could reduce the number of Illegal Aliens by several million in a few years.
Strengthen the border.
Then, increase the amount of work visas issued so that law abiding immigrants can come to this Country after undergoing a background check. The same kind of background check that LEGAL aliens have to undergo when emigrating to our Country.
So, let's see now. By following these simple steps you could:
1. Lessen the amount of illegal aliens that come seeking employment because employers who hire them would be substantially penalized if caught.
2. By strengthening the border you would reduce the amount of illegals who successfully skirt the legal immigration process
3. By increasing the amount of legal work visas and imposing a 5 year cap on them you would give more people the chance to come and work here.
4. By increasing Deportations you would substantially reduce the amount of illegal aliens already here while providing job openings for those who come here legally.
Now I can already guess what you're going to say. Why PAY to deport those already here only to allow more in with work visas?
If you can show me a reliable process by which we could account for and then complete the necessary criminal checks on those already here, issue them visas etc by all means, I'd be all for that. The other points above would still stand including the strengthening of our border. You have to be able to get to a point in this country where we can differentiate between who is here legally and who is not. If you're not, then deportation would await.

Let's not, and let's have you stick to one topic at a time for a change. I've grown tired of your lists of long since defeated or irrelevant topics.

.

[Laz]

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

I agree with some of the concepts. Obviously we need a more effective work visa program. However if you force American companies to hire Americans first, I'm not sure what impact that would have on the work visa program. I agree 100% that U.S. companies should be penalized for hiring illegal workers.
My question is this. At what point are the countries of origin for many of these illegal aliens held accountable for the conditions that force many of these people to leave in the first place?
If the disenfranchised of these Countries simply continue to emigrate to the United States, where is the incentive, the pressure etc on the Governments of those Countries to provide better wages, better living conditions etc for their people? As long as those wages and conditions remain substandard, are we really ever going to get a grip on illegal immigration in our Country? Just food for thought.

I think it is safe to assume that there are more people in the world that want the opportunity available here than this economy could possibly support. Given that we have an olbligation to provide opportunity for US workers first. If that means a reduced number of visas then so be it.

We cannot hold the source countries accountable for the conditions in their own country. Without taking control and changing them to a free market economy without massive coruption we can't do anything nor should we try. It is up to the people of those nations to demand a change. We cannot and should not try to impose that change. All we can do is be an example.

The only way to stop illegal immigration is to remove the incentives. If caught they are deported immediately and have no chance of legally coming here in the future. No jobs available because employer penalties make unprofitable and employers have a legal way of easily meeting their needs. No social or government services available. If sick they are stabalized and shipped home. No education for kids. If anchor baby exists send the baby home with the parents. Once the child is old enough the child only can return to the US if desired. The other option is to change the law so that simply being born in the US does not grant citizenship.

Those items would make conditions here for illegal aliens bad enough that it would not be worth coming here illegally. The things above would also apply to those here illegally now after a grace period that allows them the opportunity to get work visas. If they leave voluntarily they have the option of returning through a legal process. If not and they are caught then they are permanantly denied entry.

That would only leave criminals to protect the borders from. They can be hunted more agressively without compassion.