Bye bye my political friends!

[bambino]

Originally Posted by themystic

Maybe next year you will be off your Preparation H. You have to stop getting pegged in the ass first

I’m sure Asswipe will let you apply it to his. He’ll return the favor, with his tongue!!!!

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by bambino

I’m sure Asswipe will let you apply it to his. He’ll return the favor, with his tongue!!!!

I don't know an Asswipe.

But I do know an EATLER!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

(what a doofus...)

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by themystic

keep up the good ib. maybe next year you will win bitter old man of the year award. Moscow Ellen won but he just retired. You are off to a good start

You're still bogarting those dim-retard lollipops, Moscow Mystic.

Originally Posted by lustylad

The great Kursk tank battle was mostly in Russia - but the Russians were soon pushing the retreating German armies back across the vast Ukrainian steppes. What I find fascinating in terms of how Ukrainians and Russians hate and mistrust each other today is how much of it appears rooted in WW2. Ukraine is a huge country, and I gather part of the population (especially in the western regions) was more sympathetic and prone to collaborate with the Nazi invaders than Ukrainians in the eastern part. That's partly why Putin condemned the 2014 Maidan revolution in Kiev as led by "fascists".

Some of the animosity goes back even further. Who can forget Stalin's liquidation of millions of Kulaks in the 1930s? And Ukrainian nationalism can be traced back centuries. I believe at one time Ukraine was part of Poland and/or Lithuania.

Of course, Putin knows all of this history much better than anyone in our State Department.

I don't mean to suggest the Nazis treated the Ukrainians well during their brief 2-3 year occupation. They viewed them as racially inferior and pursued a lot of scorched-earth policies during and after Operation Barbarossa. However, the Russians have always been suspicious of Ukrainian loyalties and have long regarded them as vassals. Even today Putin has never accepted Ukraine as a real country.

IB - what have you (as our resident historian) read about this?

I still believe Stalingrad was the real turning point on the Eastern Front. Glantz is making it pretty clear that the Germans didn't have the resources to win at Kursk. The Soviets were well prepared for the German offensive. The German attack came as no strategic surprise. The Soviets had prepared their defenses up to 300 kilometers in depth to stop and contain any German advance.

Had Hitler allowed the Sixth Army to withdraw from Stalingrad and reconstitute, he would have had something on the order of a million more men to fight with through 1942 and 1943. Hitler also squandered tanks and planes at Stalingrad. It was the shortage of close-air support at Kursk that helped insure the German operation was a failure.

While it's true that the Soviets invested a tremendous amount of human resources towards winning the war, what's often overlooked is that they couldn't have done it without their Western Allies. For instance, the Luftwaffe was only a shadow of its former self by 1943 not only because of Stalingrad, but also because, by the time of Kursk, the largest portion of the Luftwaffe was being retained in Western Europe to protect German industry and cities from the hammering they were getting from the combined air forces of Britain and the U.S. That weakened the German attack at Kursk significantly.

Hitler further weakened the German attacking force at Kursk when he transferred the 1st Panzer Division from Russia to the Mediterranean to deal with the imminent Allied invasion of Sicily.

Other major Western Allied contributions include, as Glantz also notes, that "in 1943 about 20% of Soviet tank brigades were of mixed Soviet/Lend-Lease composition, another 15% were equipped entirely with Lend-Lease types” and “by June 1943, the Soviet Union had received over 17,000 jeeps and more than 90,000 trucks from the United States alone.” This allowed the Soviet Union to focus its industry on armored vehicles.

As I was reading the D'Este book about Montgomery at Normandy, D'Este cited another book, The Killing Ground: The Battle of the Falaise Gap, August 1944 by James Lucas and James Barker, which prompted me to buy and read that book as well. It was an engaging book, and I finished it before I finished D'Este's book.

From The Killing Ground, I learned that “Fifty German Divisions had been committed to action during June. At the end of August, only ten could be classed as fighting units. In three months, the battle of Normandy had cost the Germans almost twice as many men as had the fighting in Stalingrad.” So, it's pretty apparent that the Soviets weren't the only bunch making the Germans bleed: the Allies in Normandy inflicted two times the number of casualties on the Germans in less than half the time the Soviets did at Stalingrad. Statistically, that's a pretty impressive contribution to the war effort.

Regarding the Ukraine. Yes, the Ukrainians hated the Russians, and many did willingly enlist in the German Army to not only escape the wretched POW camps but also to exact vengeance against the hated Reds. Hitler would have profited by capitalizing on that hatred, but to him, Ukrainian Slavs were no different from Russian Slavs, and both had to be removed for the greater good of the new German Reich.

Originally Posted by Tiny

That sounds like interesting reading material. The documentaries I've seen and the few books I've read about WWII don't have a lot to say about the eastern front. I suspect we way underestimate the importance of what happened there. The Russians did the heavy lifting in Europe. I know the Battle of Kursk was huge, a turning point against the Germans.

About Normandy, I got to have a look at German fortifications in the Channel Islands a few years ago. Maybe about 50% of the population at the time of WWII were French speakers of Norman origin, although the islands have more or less been a part of Britain since about the 1200's. The British basically just walked away from the islands, viewing them as strategically unimportant. The Krauts on the other hand made a huge investment in construction and men, but it was wasted effort -- Britain never tried to take the islands back and Hitler never used them as a staging ground to invade Britain proper. The locals lived an uneasy existence with the German military, but there was no resistance like in France. If you had to live in someplace occupied by Germans in World War II, this was probably as good as it gets, although the local populace was eating cats by the end of the war.

I've been to Paris, but not to Normandy to see what remains of the Atlantic Wall. I did visit a couple of WWII battlefields in Italy. See my response to lustylad above about Russian versus American contributions to the overall war effort.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by lustylad

Some of the animosity goes back even further. Who can forget Stalin's liquidation of millions of Kulaks in the 1930s?

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

I still believe Stalingrad was the real turning point on the Eastern Front.

Fascinating gentlemen. Thanks for your posts. I suspected that western historians overplayed the role played by the U.S. and other allies in aiding the Soviets in WWII. Turns out I was wrong. IB, you make a compelling case, given the high % of tanks and trucks supplied by Lend-Lease, allied bombing, and forced diversion of German troops to Normandy and Italy.

The thoughts about the Ukrainians are just as interesting. It's a strange war, Slavs killing Slavs. You think about the support the Soviets and Russians gave the Serbs when Yugoslavia broke up and wonder how that happened. You've provided good context for understanding what's going on now.

Who says you can't learn something worthwhile, besides where you're going to find your next piece of ass, on a hooker board.

[lustylad]

The Smithsonian Channel has produced some excellent programs on WW2. This one detailed and documented the fighting involved in the breakout at Normandy, from the June 6 landings to the hedgerow battles and the "turkey shoot" in the Falaise Gap.

https://www.smithsonianchannel.com/s...hell/0/3472892

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by Tiny

The thoughts about the Ukrainians are just as interesting. It's a strange war, Slavs killing Slavs. You think about the support the Soviets and Russians gave the Serbs when Yugoslavia broke up and wonder how that happened. You've provided good context for understanding what's going on now.

The Serbs were the dominant group in Tito's partisans who fought against the Nazi invaders in Yugoslavia during WW2. In Ukraine at least some of the Russians' Slav brothers collaborated and fought with the Nazis. That accounts for the difference in Russian perceptions.

Russians and Ukrainians share much in common ethnically and culturally. Language, religion and surnames are very similar.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by lustylad

The Serbs were the dominant group in Tito's partisans who fought against the Nazi invaders in Yugoslavia during WW2. In Ukraine at least some of the Russians' Slav brothers collaborated and fought with the Nazis. That accounts for the difference in Russian perceptions.

Russians and Ukrainians share much in common ethnically and culturally. Language, religion and surnames are very similar.

This makes a lot of sense. It's interesting how what happened 75 years ago is still affecting history. The Russians must have long memories. The western allies, Germany and Japan got over WWII long ago.

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by Tiny

This makes a lot of sense. It's interesting how what happened 75 years ago is still affecting history. The Russians must have long memories. The western allies, Germany and Japan got over WWII long ago.

not everyone in asia got over WWII.

look at the spat between Japan and S. Korea.

there's the issue of the non-apology from Japan over what they did during WWII.

[Austin Ellen]

Only Rosie O'donnell Elizabeth,only Rosie O'donnell.


I channeled my inner Big T for ya and yes I'm back.

Originally Posted by ElisabethWhispers

You really believe that?

Many, if not most, of her postings in the political forum were vicious, grossly hostile towards other women, and definitely “harpy’ish” at best. Her idealologies and presentations of such were, and are, such a disappointment from a fellow older sex worker.

I’ve presented my opinion about her, and to her, in previous topics.

But not to worry all of you folks that love and cherish Ellen and her postings. She won’t be gone long.

Bet she even replies again to this post and/or others.

If she does not, then she will certainly gain some esteem from me. Not much, but a little.

Always,
Elisabeth

[Austin Ellen]

Such a whiner. I got points because of you. You want to RTM me? I'm going to RTM you. Just FYI.

Originally Posted by themystic

Right on the money EW. She is just like Trump. A vile and disgusting human being

[Austin Ellen]

And here's Mystics sidekick. They were holding hands while they RTMed one of my posts. You're on notice too little girl.

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

BobbleHAND, doofus.

[bambino]

Originally Posted by Austin Ellen

And here's Mystics sidekick. They were holding hands while they RTMed one of my posts. You're on notice too little girl.

He’s banned. AGAIN

[Austin Ellen]

Ha! I should of known.

[bambino]

Originally Posted by Austin Ellen

Ha! I should of known.

But by all means, work on Themistake!

[themystic]

Originally Posted by Austin Ellen

And here's Mystics sidekick. They were holding hands while they RTMed one of my posts. You're on notice too little girl.

awww Moscow Ellen Bless your heart sweet heart. im taking a que from your potential clients...…………….IGNORING YOU. Im praying for you Sugar Honey Pie. Lusty defended you in your absence. Pretty much everyone else...……………..didn't even know you were gone. Bless Your Heart