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Old 11-15-2011, 10:12 AM   #91
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage


So the basic theory says that raising the minimum wage helps workers whose wages are raised, and hurts people who are not hired (or lose their jobs) because companies cut back on employment. But proponents of the minimum wage hold that the situation is much more complicated than the basic theory can account for.
One complicating factor is possible monopsony in the labor market, whereby the individual employer has some market power in determining wages paid. Thus it is at least theoretically possible that the minimum wage may boost employment. Though single employer market power is unlikely to exist in most labor markets in the sense of the traditional 'company town,' asymmetric information, imperfect mobility, and the 'personal' element of the labor transaction give some degree of wage-setting power to most firms.[21]
[edit] Criticism of the "textbook model"

The argument that minimum wages decrease employment is based on a simple supply and demand model of the labor market. A number of economists (for example Pierangelo Garegnani,[22] Robert L. Vienneau,[23] and Arrigo Opocher & Ian Steedman[24]), building on the work of Piero Sraffa, argue that that model, even given all its assumptions, is logically incoherent. Michael Anyadike-Danes and Wyne Godley [25] argue, based on simulation results, that little of the empirical work done with the textbook model constitutes a potentially falsifying test, and, consequently, empirical evidence hardly exists for that model. Graham White [26] argues, partially on the basis of Sraffianism, that the policy of increased labor market flexibility, including the reduction of minimum wages, does not have an "intellectually coherent" argument in economic theory.
Gary Fields, Professor of Labor Economics and Economics at Cornell University, argues that the standard "textbook model" for the minimum wage is "ambiguous", and that the standard theoretical arguments incorrectly measure only a one-sector market. Fields says a two-sector market, where "the self-employed, service workers, and farm workers are typically excluded from minimum-wage coverage… [and with] one sector with minimum-wage coverage and the other without it [and possible mobility between the two]," is the basis for better analysis. Through this model, Fields shows the typical theoretical argument to be ambiguous and says "the predictions derived from the textbook model definitely do not carry over to the two-sector case. Therefore, since a non-covered sector exists nearly everywhere, the predictions of the textbook model simply cannot be relied on."[27]
An alternate view of the labor market has low-wage labor markets characterized as monopsonistic competition wherein buyers (employers) have significantly more market power than do sellers (workers). This monopsony could be a result of intentional collusion between employers, or naturalistic factors such as segmented markets, search costs, information costs, imperfect mobility and the 'personal' element of labor markets. In such a case the diagram above would not yield the quantity of labor clearing and the wage rate. This is because while the upward sloping aggregate labor supply would remain unchanged, instead of using the downward labor demand curve shown in the diagram above, monopsonistic employers would use a steeper downward sloping curve corresponding to marginal expenditures to yield the intersection with the supply curve resulting in a wage rate lower than would be the case under competition. Also, the amount of labor sold would also be lower than the competitive optimal allocation.
Such a case is a type of market failure and results in workers being paid less than their marginal value. Under the monopsonistic assumption, an appropriately set minimum wage could increase both wages and employment, with the optimal level being equal to the marginal productivity of labor.[28] This view emphasizes the role of minimum wages as a market regulation policy akin to antitrust policies, as opposed to an illusory "free lunch" for low-wage workers.
Another reason minimum wage may not affect employment in certain industries is that the demand for the product the employees produce is highly inelastic;[29] For example, if management is forced to increase wages, management can pass on the increase in wage to consumers in the form of higher prices. Since demand for the product is highly inelastic, consumers continue to buy the product at the higher price and so the manager is not forced to lay off workers.
Three other possible reasons minimum wages do not affect employment were suggested by Alan Blinder: higher wages may reduce turnover, and hence training costs; raising the minimum wage may "render moot" the potential problem of recruiting workers at a higher wage than current workers; and minimum wage workers might represent such a small proportion of a business's cost that the increase is too small to matter. He admits that he does not know if these are correct, but argues that "the list demonstrates that one can accept the new empirical findings and still be a card-carrying economist."[30]
[edit] Debate over consequences

Various groups have great ideological, political, financial, and emotional investments in issues surrounding minimum wage laws. For example, agencies that administer the laws have a vested interest in showing that "their" laws do not create unemployment, as do labor unions, whose members' jobs are protected by minimum wage laws. On the other side of the issue, low-wage employers such as restaurants finance the Employment Policies Institute, which has released numerous studies opposing the minimum wage.[31] The presence of these powerful groups and factors means that the debate on the issue is not always based on dispassionate analysis. Additionally, it is extraordinarily difficult to separate the effects of minimum wage from all the other variables that affect employment.[5]
The following table summarizes the arguments made by those for and against minimum wage laws:
Arguments in favor of Minimum Wage Laws Supporters of the minimum wage claim it has these effects:
  • Increases the standard of living for the poorest and most vulnerable class in society and raises average.[1]
  • Motivates and encourages employees to work harder[32]
  • Stimulates consumption, by putting more money in the hands of low-income people who spend their entire paychecks.[1]
  • Increases the work ethic of those who earn very little, as employers demand more return from the higher cost of hiring these employees.[1]
  • Decreases the cost of government social welfare programs by increasing incomes for the lowest-paid.[1]
  • Encourages people to join the workforce rather than pursuing money through illegal means, e.g., selling illegal drugs [33][34]
  • Encourages efficiency and automation of industry.[35]
  • Removes low paying jobs, forcing workers to train for, and move to, higher paying jobs.[36][37]
  • Increases technological development. Costly technology that increases business efficiency is more appealing as the price of labour increases.[38]

Arguments against Minimum Wage Laws Opponents of the minimum wage claim it has these effects:
  • As a labor market analogue of political-economic protectionism, it excludes low cost competitors from labor markets and hampers firms in reducing wage costs during trade downturns. This generates various industrial-economic inefficiencies.[39]
  • Hurts small business more than large business. [40]
  • Reduces quantity demanded of workers, either through a reduction in the number of hours worked by individuals, or through a reduction in the number of jobs.[41][42]
  • May cause price inflation as businesses try to compensate by raising the prices of the goods being sold.[43][44]
  • Benefits some workers at the expense of the poorest and least productive.[45]
  • Can result in the exclusion of certain groups from the labor force.[46]
  • Small firms with limited payroll budgets cannot offer their most valuable employees fair and attractive wages above unskilled workers paid the artificially high minimum, and see a rising hurdle-cost of adding workers.[47]
  • Is less effective than other methods (e.g. the Earned Income Tax Credit) at reducing poverty, and is more damaging to businesses than those other methods.[48]
  • Discourages further education among the poor by enticing people to enter the job market.[48]


In 2006, the International Labour Organization (ILO)[8] argued that the minimum wage could not be directly linked to unemployment in countries that have suffered job losses. In April 2010, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD)[49] released a report arguing that countries could alleviate teen unemployment by “lowering the cost of employing low-skilled youth” through a sub-minimum training wage. A study of U.S. states showed that businesses' annual and average payrolls grow faster and employment grew at a faster rate in states with a minimum wage.[50] The study showed a correlation, but did not claim to prove causation.
Although strongly opposed by both the business community and the Conservative Party when introduced in 1999, the minimum wage introduced in the UK is no longer controversial and the Conservatives reversed their opposition in 2000.[51] A review of its effects found no discernible impact on employment levels.[52] However, prices in the minimum wage sector were found to have risen significantly faster than prices in non-minimum wage sectors, most notably in the four years following the implementation of the minimum wage.[53]
Since the introduction of a national minimum wage in the UK in 1999, its effects on employment were subject to extensive research and observation by the Low Pay Commission. The Low Pay Commission found that, rather than make employees redundant, employers have reduced their rate of hiring, reduced staff hours, increased prices, and have found ways to cause current workers to be more productive (especially service companies).[54] Neither trade unions nor employer organizations contest the minimum wage, although the latter had especially done so heavily until 1999.
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Old 11-15-2011, 10:18 AM   #92
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Default The Minimum Wage

You would be surprised how many manufacturing facilities simply ignore the minimum wage. They start helpers out at 2 to 3 dollars above it.

We pay the guy that sweeps the floors $11 an hour, with benefits. I don't need the Government telling me what a persons Labor is worth.

As for Michele Bachmann, she is a looney in her own political world as those on the far left are in theirs.
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Old 11-15-2011, 10:19 AM   #93
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There are as many theories on the effect of minimum wage as there are economists. I think the simplest answer is best, which is if the employee does not return enough value to his/her employer to cover his wage plus a nominal rate of return, that employee will be fired. If the equilibrium wage is above the minimum wage, there is no minimum wage effect. If the equilibrium wage is below the minimum wage, there will be a surplus of labor (unemployment). Those are the basics.

There are other ways to avoid sweatshops and the like.
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Old 11-15-2011, 10:21 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie S View Post
You would be surprised how many manufacturing facilities simply ignore the minimum wage. They start helpers out at 2 to 3 dollars above it.

We pay the guy that sweeps the floors $11 an hour, with benefits. I don't need the Government telling me what a persons Labor is worth.

As for Michele Bachmann, she is a looney in her own political world as those on the far left are in theirs.
And that makes it ok? To do something illegal like that? It just means Jackie that they are counting on someone in that position not to blow the whistle that they are not paying the minimum wage required by law. I am glad you abide by the law on this issue.
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Old 11-15-2011, 10:22 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy View Post
There are as many theories on the effect of minimum wage as there are economists. I think the simplest answer is best, which is if the employee does not return enough value to his/her employer to cover his wage plus a nominal rate of return, that employee will be fired. If the equilibrium wage is above the minimum wage, there is no minimum wage effect. If the equilibrium wage is below the minimum wage, there will be a surplus of labor (unemployment). Those are the basics.

There are other ways to avoid sweatshops and the like.
Well that is certainly your opinion. I respect your opinion but don't necessarily agree.
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Old 11-15-2011, 10:26 AM   #96
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WELL IT SHOULD BE YOUR OPINION YOU LESBIAN HEATHEN SCUM! . . . Oh, just a sec. You were respectful. Sorry, I wasn't used to that and morphed into Doove for a moment. Well, thank you, GP, and I respect your opinion as well.

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Old 11-15-2011, 10:27 AM   #97
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Default GP

I think you missed my first point. Many manufacturing facilities ignore all of this minimum wage stuff because they pay everyone, even the helpers with minimum skills, 2 to 3 dollars above it.

The biggest culprits in minimum wage violations are probably found in the service industries, such as fast food outlets, convienience stores, shopping mall shops, etc.
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Old 11-15-2011, 10:40 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie S View Post
I think you missed my first point. Many manufacturing facilities ignore all of this minimum wage stuff because they pay everyone, even the helpers with minimum skills, 2 to 3 dollars above it.

The biggest culprits in minimum wage violations are probably found in the service industries, such as fast food outlets, convienience stores, shopping mall shops, etc.
I did miss your point sorry.

I was just calculating and I came up with this.

Currently in Texas minimum wage is 6.55
If someone works at 6.55 for a 40 hour work week x 4.33 days in a month then they earn 1134.00 a month. That is before taxes.
For a single person a basic one bedroom one bathroom apartment on average is between 600- 700 a month.
Factor in electricity which will average about 150.00 a month on the conservative side, then phone 50-60 a month, gas for vehicle could run 200 a month depending on size and age of vehicle, insurance liability only on average 130.00 a month. Water bill 25.00 a month, food cost for a single person 200 a month, and this is not inclusive of expenditures on doctor bills, medicines, vehicle maintenance or clothes as needed as time goes by or any other type unexpected expenses.
So you are looking at basically 2000 roughly for just basic living, nothing extravagant. A person cannot live on minimum wage as it stands now, and those that do are in horrible deplorable situations that I wouldn’t wish on anybody. To think that the current minimum wage should be gotten rid of and left up to the companies to decide the wages of a low unskilled workers is not something that I feel comfortable with.
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Old 11-15-2011, 10:41 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy View Post
WELL IT SHOULD BE YOUR OPINION YOU LESBIAN HEATHEN SCUM! . . . Oh, just a sec. You were respectful. Sorry, I wasn't used to that and morphed into Doove for a moment. Well, thank you, GP, and I respect your opinion as well.

LOL, don't forget Atheist! hahaha...oh wait I am a Heathen!
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Old 11-15-2011, 03:05 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy View Post
Oh, just a sec. You were respectful. Sorry, I wasn't used to that and morphed into Doove for a moment.
You're obsessing.
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Old 11-15-2011, 04:09 PM   #101
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Nah, just seeing if you would respond. Thanks!

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Old 11-15-2011, 04:20 PM   #102
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Default you have eyes but will not see

The academic eggheads you quote are
next to clueless regarding how economies
actually work. Sheik hussein has loaded
his regime chock full of know-nothings
from harvard, yale, princeton-bleck
Not one of his advisors or cabinet has
ever held an actual job of consequence.
But they have lots of ideas on how
to run business.
Current state of our economy should
tell you how well those ideas work.

It's laughable that you and others of
similar mindset believe that without
govt, corporations would ride rough
shod on everyone. You draw comparisons
to early 20th century labor issues.
Ignorant or unaware that business was
only doing in public what the govt
considers SOP. So business took it
on the chin- while govt continued
business as usual- nothing to see
here..move along.

What govt mandate requires
Google or Apple or Microsoft
to pay way above normal?

Minimum wage isn't meant to be
a living wage. It's for losers and noobs.
You old lady pal is a noob to the BK
empire. If she is half the employee
I suspect she is,6 mos from now
either a raise and/or promotion.

You hike minimum wage to a living wage,
look for considerable price inflation
across the board.
The poor will have more money
for all of a month tops before
prices jump to compensate.
And though they may be making more,
everything will subsequently cost more.
Hence it is a zero sum gain.

If you want to know how businesses run,
talk to a successful businessman.
If you want to know how to make the
simple complex and byzantine,
talk to an academic.

Minimum wage punishes unskilled labor.
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Old 11-15-2011, 04:38 PM   #103
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Anixamander we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Old 11-15-2011, 05:37 PM   #104
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People forget why we have minimum wage.
It's not a matter of equilibrium wage, that is nonsense. It is a matter of fat CEO's and Board of Directors abusing workers.
There are countries with much higher minimum wages who are outcompeting the USA so how is that possible? Well for one thing they are more productive but no American wants to admit that. (However it's easy to search it on google, think of countries in Northern Europe)
Minimum wage doesn't have to be $20 or $30. It has to be of a level that you can live a minimum life in the area where you are. With just 1 job in stead of 3
An yes in SoCAl that would be at least $12-$13 per hour, in TX $9 per hour might be enough.
We in American have the most productive workers in the world........... Yeah right, you really are so stupid to believe that?
Jackie is right when he pays 2 or 3 bucks above minimum wage. No employer should pay minimum wage, that just shows they wouldn't pay what a worker is valued at. They would just pay as low as the law allows.
Minimum wage should be a guideline. Nothing more. Every employer that really pays minimum wage is a greedy shame. Even McDonalds does better (at least in SoCal).

Otherwise try to explain the difference of value in a cashier @ Albertsons making $16 and @ Walmart making $7.25? There is no difference in value. They do the same work.
Walmart is just more greedy and can get away with it because they are so big and because we have high unemployment.
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Old 11-15-2011, 05:40 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waverunner234 View Post
People forget why we have minimum wage.
It's not a matter of equilibrium wage, that is nonsense. It is a matter of fat CEO's and Board of Directors abusing workers.
There are countries with much higher minimum wages who are outcompeting the USA so how is that possible? Well for one thing they are more productive but no American wants to admit that. (However it's easy to search it on google, think of countries in Northern Europe)
Minimum wage doesn't have to be $20 or $30. It has to be of a level that you can live a minimum life in the area where you are. With just 1 job in stead of 3
An yes in SoCAl that would be at least $12-$13 per hour, in TX $9 per hour might be enough.
We in American have the most productive workers in the world........... Yeah right, you really are so stupid to believe that?
Jackie is right when he pays 2 or 3 bucks above minimum wage. No employer should pay minimum wage, that just shows they wouldn't pay what a worker is valued at. They would just pay as low as the law allows.
Minimum wage should be a guideline. Nothing more. Every employer that really pays minimum wage is a greedy shame. Even McDonalds does better (at least in SoCal).

Otherwise try to explain the difference of value in a cashier @ Albertsons making $16 and @ Walmart making $7.25? There is no difference in value. They do the same work.
Walmart is just more greedy and can get away with it because they are so big and because we have high unemployment.
+ 1
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