Welcome to ECCIE - Sign up today!

Doove · 12-23-2012, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

+1 What the hell are you going to say to an enraged drunk knocking your door down? "Hey, you sure you got the right house?" Boy, some people are stupid. It's not the gun's fault, it's the drunk's fault.

But what if the drunk didn't "knock the door down"?

True story. In Buffalo just a few years back, a guy was visiting friends from out of town, and he was staying at their house for the weekend. There was a party and at the end of the evening, the guy, while drunk, went for a walk in the woods behind the house. When he came back, it turns out he was somehow confused and instead of going to the house where he was staying, he walked into the house next door. Didn't knock the door in, didn't even force his way in. Just walked in because the door was left unlocked.

Dude's now dead. Wife and (i believe) a kid.

Ironically enough, i seem to recall the guy was a teacher in the Albany NY area.

The guy who shot him yelled down from the top of the stairs, and when he didn't get a response, he decided he needed to shoot him. The guy was not a threat, and besides mistakenly walking into the wrong house, did nothing to really indicate he was. No charges were filed.

SpeedRacerXXX · 12-23-2012, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexusLover

Friend, kicking your door in is .... "threatening you" ...

.... even in Cedar Park.

Just a rhetorical question ...

.. how do you know there is only one person there?

If there is another one ... you;re probably dead anyone.

What part of the following do you NOT understand:

Texas Penal Code: Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

I NEVER said that in the state of Texas that anything else than what you stated is true. I NEVER said that the homeowner who shot the guy I know was guilty of any crime in the state of Texas. If you think otherwise, please give us all the post where I said it. I did however say I disagreed with the law.

In other states, even some where the Castle Law exists, homeowners are not as free to simply fire away. See below. As stated in another post, very difficult in most cases to prove the homeowner guilty, even if he is.

Softer Castle Laws

Not all states give citizens as much leeway in protecting their personal property. States like California allow citizens to protect their homes with deadly force if they feel that they or another person are in physical danger, but does not extend to theft, and it only protects residents in their home, and not in cars or at work.

In New York you cannot use deadly force if you know with certainty that you can avoid an intruder by retreating. You can use deadly force if you are not the initial aggressor in an altercation within your home.

Other states with limited, little, or no castle law or case law giving citizens the rights to protect their homes using force include: Idaho, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Iowa, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Virginia, Vermont, and Washington, D.C.

SpeedRacerXXX · 12-23-2012, 09:48 AM

What "fairly recently passed "Castle Law" in Texas"?

You all read too much OP-Ed from the Austin rag in Cedar Park.

The last "upgrade" was in 1994 ... "fairly recent" ??? AND

Sorry. I really didn't go back to find out what year the Castle Law was passed. Makes no difference.

May be in Cedar Park it is socially correct to kick in folks doors when drunk, but I wouldn't transport that concept tot he rest of the State of Texas! Even Travis County.

FYI. Cedar Park is NOT in Travis County.

SpeedRacerXXX · 12-23-2012, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

+1 What the hell are you going to say to an enraged drunk knocking your door down? "Hey, you sure you got the right house?" Boy, some people are stupid. It's not the gun's fault, it's the drunk's fault.

It really doesn't matter what you or I think. In some states, in the true incident I cited, the shooter can be arrested for shooting an unarmed intruder. I certainly agree that it was the drunk's fault.

LexusLover · 12-23-2012, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

FYI. Cedar Park is NOT in Travis County.

I know exactlay where "Cedar Park" is ... before it was even Cedar Park!!!

Where is the "Castle Law" in Texas. Give us the cite!

I posted the law I was citing. Now post yours!

LexusLover · 12-23-2012, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

It really doesn't matter what you or I think. In some states, in the true incident I cited, the shooter can be arrested for shooting an unarmed intruder. I certainly agree that it was the drunk's fault.

People can be "arrested" for walking down the correct side of the street! So what?

Speedy, you are way over your head ... in swfit water. Climb out while you still can.

You are drowing in your own Cedar Park bullshit.

i'va biggen · 12-23-2012, 09:58 AM

Those of you who are taking another persons life because you are unable to know if the person is or isn't a threat to you need better training.You are the type who shoots a family member in the night .

Doove · 12-23-2012, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

I certainly agree that it was the drunk's fault.

But as you seem to be trying to point out...the question then becomes was it a mistake deserving of death?

LexusLover · 12-23-2012, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by i'va biggen

You are the type who shoots a family member in the night .

My "family members" don't kick in my doors ... do yours?

In fact mine customarily will call and let me know they are in town and/or on the way over to see me, what ever time of day it is.

My friends don't kick in my doors either ... see above about family.

I have a "deal" with my friends and family ...

.. if I kick in your door .... you can shoot me.

LexusLover · 12-23-2012, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doove

...the question then becomes was it a mistake deserving of death?

... which one ... the one made when not shooting the intruder?

Budman · 12-23-2012, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by i'va biggen

Those of you who are taking another persons life because you are unable to know if the person is or isn't a threat to you need better training.You are the type who shoots a family member in the night .

You're so full of shit. He was a threat when he kicked in the door. Ever hear the phrase "hind sight is 20/20". You continually want to blame the shooter for the actions of the drunk. The shooter had no idea if this was a home invasion. What should he have done? Introduced himself to the invader and done a quick "pat down" to make sure he wasn't armed.

Doove · 12-23-2012, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexusLover

... which one ... the one made when not shooting the intruder?

The guy who didn't shoot the intruder, was he holding a gun?

Doove · 12-23-2012, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Budman

You're so full of shit. He was a threat when he kicked in the door.

Thinking someone's a threat doesn't make them a threat.

That's the entire crux of the point being made, and it doesn't surprise me that you all feel the need to disregard that small inconvenient part of the debate.

Quote:

You continually want to blame the shooter for the actions of the drunk.

No, i think he's trying to blame the "shoot first and ask questions later" mentality of you hot-heads.

LexusLover · 12-23-2012, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doove

Thinking someone's a threat doesn't make them a threat.

That is a correct statement, but that is not the law.

From the shooter's perspective if a reasonable person could perceive a threat of serious bodily injury or death, then that is all that is necessary for the shooter to use force that can result in serious bodily injury or death. Under the Model Penal Code that is pretty much adopted through the United States by the States ...

if one can reasonable perceive a threat of serious bodily injury or death to oneself or another, then that is all that is necessary for a person to use force that can result in serious bodily injury or death in defense of oneself or a third-party.

You all have some how gotten the belief that shooting someone intruding in your home is "kiling" them ... it's not ... it is using deadly force .. which is causing serious bodily injury or death ....

.. all that other crap is "reader's digest" law.

The bottom line is that a reasonable person can conclude that someone kicking in their door at 4:00 a.m. (or any time for that matter) is entering to cause them serious bodily injury or death ... and that justifies the use of defensive force causing serious body injury or death .... against the intruder.

That is the reason why LE announces and wear distinctive labeling on their persons .. it's not safe. Although there are some limited circumstances when announcing is NOT SAFE for LE, but those limited circumstances do not apply to the scenarios being posed in this thread and some others.

Is that the standard in ALL STATES ... I doubt it, but it IS in most, because most have adopted the Model Penal Code.

LexusLover · 12-23-2012, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doove

But what if the drunk didn't "knock the door down"?

True story. In Buffalo just a few years back, a guy was visiting friends from out of town, and he was staying at their house for the weekend. There was a party and at the end of the evening, the guy, while drunk, went for a walk in the woods behind the house. When he came back, it turns out he was somehow confused and instead of going to the house where he was staying, he walked into the house next door. Didn't knock the door in, didn't even force his way in. Just walked in because the door was left unlocked.

Dude's now dead. Wife and (i believe) a kid.

Ironically enough, i seem to recall the guy was a teacher in the Albany NY area.

The guy who shot him yelled down from the top of the stairs, and when he didn't get a response, he decided he needed to shoot him. The guy was not a threat, and besides mistakenly walking into the wrong house, did nothing to really indicate he was. No charges were filed.

Burglary doesn't mean you break the door down or smash the lock. It is entering without permission of the "owner" and this guy walked into someone else's house .... and then didn't respond when yelled at ...

.. who actually expects a homeowner to do a breathlizer, weapons check, background check, and identification check on someone barging into their home or illegally in their home?