Ukraine Russia NATO

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by VitaMan

A diplomatic solution to the dilemma is not going to be easy to find...

Like Biden, you're naive and easily played. Putin has been planning to invade for months. He pretended to negotiate in order to find out what sanctions the West would threaten him with, so he has a heads-up on what to expect and can figure out in advance how he can counter them.

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by Jackie S

One of the problems we have is our schools do not cover much in the way of European history.

These countries do not have the luxury of two huge oceans separating them from their historic enemies.

I say historic because from a Russian point of view, it has only been 81 years since one of the NATO countries, Germany, tried to wipe out or enslave their population.

And just over 150 years ago when another NATO country, France, tried to do the same thing.

These old nationalistic prejudices do not die easily.

If Ukraine joins NATO, the Russians see only potential enemies just one foot across their border.

Thank you, Jackie!

I'm not a Putin apologist - but why can't people try to view things from a Russian historical perspective? They see Ukraine as the "soft underbelly" used by Hitler and Napoleon to drive their armies to the outskirts of Moscow. If I was Russian, knowing that would be enough to make me paranoid about Ukraine joining a military alliance whose founding objective was to "contain" Russia!

After the Berlin Wall fell in 1989 and the USSR imploded in 1991, nobody dreamed NATO would expand to 30 nations and one day be contemplating membership for Ukraine and Georgia. There are so many reasons why this enlargement is and was unwise. Even George Kennan viewed it as a bad idea. We should have seized the opportunity 30 years ago to "re-imagine" NATO. All those so-called foreign policy experts at the US State Department failed us!

[bambino]

Originally Posted by lustylad

Like Biden, you're naive and easily played. Putin has been planning to invade for months. He pretended to negotiate in order to find out what sanctions the West would threaten him with, so he has a heads-up on what to expect and how he can counter them.

Putin probably was planning to invade since Clinton coerced The Ukraine to dismantle their Nukes. He took Crimea under Obama/Biden. He waited for Trump to leave to complete the job under Biden. It’s a no-brainer. But why should the US care? Biden’s new sanctions are worthless. It’s been a part of Putins calculations. The price of oil has gone up steadily. His coffers are full. He already kicked the Rothchilds out of Russia and returning them to the gold standard. He’s clearly giving the finger to the NWO and NATO. I’m rooting for him.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...d-than-dollars

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/06/03/...alth-fund.html

[bambino]

Who’s the Commie?

https://mobile.twitter.com/SaltyCrac...82456638607363

Trudope is freezing his own citizens bank accounts.

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by bambino

Putin probably was planning to invade since Clinton coerced The Ukraine to dismantle their Nukes.

No, no, no, no! Putin wasn't even around when we signed the 1994 Budapest Memorandum of Understanding. At the time it was a good idea to transfer the nukes back to Russia so they could be dismantled pursuant to our disarmament treaties. That "memorandum" wasn't a full-fledged treaty so it didn't truly "guarantee" Ukraine's borders. The official US position is it's not legally binding.

Our big mistakes occurred 8 years ago. The 2014 Maidan protests flared up in Kiev and Obama stupidly sent Victoria Nuland into Maidan Square to hand out cookies to the demonstrators. The US should've stayed neutral and hands-off. The pro-Russian President (Yanukovytch) had been duly elected. After he fled the country during a coup, I knew Putin would react badly. Which he did by grabbing Crimea.

But nothing I just wrote means I am "rooting for Putin". And neither should you. He's clearly the aggressor now and any war will be tragic and fratricidal.

[bambino]

Originally Posted by lustylad

No, no, no, no! Putin wasn't even around when we signed the 1994 Budapest Memorandum of Understanding. At the time it was a good idea to transfer the nukes back to Russia so they could be dismantled pursuant to our disarmament treaties. That "memorandum" wasn't a full-fledged treaty so it didn't truly "guarantee" Ukraine's borders. The official US position is it's not legally binding.

Our big mistakes occurred 8 years ago. The 2014 Maidan protests flared up in Kiev and Obama stupidly sent Victoria Nuland into Maidan Square to hand out cookies to the demonstrators. We should've stayed neutral and hands-off. The pro-Russian President (Yanukovytch) had been duly elected. After he fled the country during a coup, I knew Putin would react badly. Which he did by grabbing Crimea.

Putin was in the KGB. He was “around”. You have to open your horizons. The WSJ editorial page is junk. Except for Kim Strassel. 2014 was when Putin went into Crimea. Under Obama/Biden. As I posted. You haven’t mentioned Putin pulling away from the Western Central banking system, or his move to stockpile gold and move away from the dollar as its fiat currency. That’s been going on along with his discussions with China. The second biggest economy in the world. Do you think he cares about sanctions from Biden?

[Yssup Rider]

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[lustylad]

Originally Posted by bambino

Putin was in the KGB. He was “around”. You have to open your horizons. The WSJ editorial page is junk. Except for Kim Strassel. 2014 was when Putin went into Crimea. Under Obama/Biden.

Putin was a nobody Apparatchik in St. Petersburg during the 1990s. Yeltsin plucked him out of obscurity by making him Prime Minister in 1999. Putin took Crimea in 2014, as I said. Right after the Sochi Winter Olympics. The WSJ editorial page is always worth reading, even when it's wrong. I love Kim Strassel too. But not Putin, he's a thug.

[bambino]

Originally Posted by lustylad

Putin was a nobody Apparatchik in St. Petersburg during the 1990s. Yeltsin plucked him out of obscurity by making him Prime Minister in 1999. Putin took Crimea in 2014, as I said. Right after the Sochi Winter Olympics. The WSJ editorial page is always worth reading, even when it's wrong. I love Kim Strassel too. But not Putin, he's a thug.

Actually, I said Putin took Crimea in 2014 first. You can dismiss Putin as “obscure” but he’s been in power since 2012, actually 2008. He was in the KGB for 16yrs. He’s a nationalist. Ukraine is the Deep States playground. They run a lot thru them. Yeah, Putin has been portrayed as a thug by the West. No different from the thugs in our government with all these worthless wars and corruption. Putin knows the Ukraine is dirty. He knows Biden is dirty. Putin will take back the Ukraine and Biden won’t lift a finger. But we’ll pay higher prices for fuel and everything else. Putins no bigger thug than what’s in power in the west. At least he’s upfront about it. He does what he says he’s going to do. Sound familiar?

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by Computerwise

The US nor NATO can ever guarantee such a thing and Putin knows it. How can we say okay, sure, you win we will never allow Ukraine in NATO so what happens next? We look weak, NATO looks weak and the Russians push for more countries to be denied NATO access.

Not a good position for NATO or the USA.

Russia claimed they don't want a NATO nation on their border but they already have 3 Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.

Russians are feeling the crunch more and more of the old Soviet block want to become Democracies and capitalistic. As the US feared Communism growth globally and got us into wars such Korean War and Viet Nam. We tried to prevent the spread of communism. The tables have turned and now Russia attempts to stop the spread of Democracy.

Long term the Russains will lose, people want to be free and that is the one thing they cannot stop.

Putin, I beleive wants the resources of Ukraine, he could care less about NATO and the border. Also, as a huge exporter of energy he wants prices to go up which all this uncertainty has already caused oil prices to rise as well as natural gas. Russia is sitting pretty in this situation. They are winners either way.

The only way NATO comes out a winner is if they figure out how to stop buying energy from Russia, cutting off their pipeline of money. If Germany is smart they will see being dependent on Russia for most of its energy needs is foolish and they will make moves to get away from Russian dependence.

Thats my two cents anyway.

I came to the same conclusion after listening to the Ukrainian Foreign Minister. All this bluster about NATO is a smoke screen, ( that I absolutely bought into ) just another excuse for Putin to do what he really wants to do and that is to take Ukraine because he believes it already belongs to Russia just like China believes that Taiwan belongs to China and Putin wants Ukrainian natural resources. Remember, Ukraine was once called the "bread basket" of Russia. I heard one expert say that there were times that without Ukraine, Russian's would have starved to death. NATO wasn't going to allow the corrupt Ukraine to join any time soon if ever, so why now?



And yeah, who is going to benefit more when the price of oil and gas goes up, that would be Putin, not us, We could be looking at gas at prices we have never seen before.

[bambino]

Originally Posted by HedonistForever

I came to the same conclusion after listening to the Ukrainian Foreign Minister. All this bluster about NATO is a smoke screen, ( that I absolutely bought into ) just another excuse for Putin to do what he really wants to do and that is to take Ukraine because he believes it already belongs to Russia just like China believes that Taiwan belongs to China and Putin wants Ukrainian natural resources. Remember, Ukraine was once called the "bread basket" of Russia. I heard one expert say that there were times that without Ukraine, Russian's would have starved to death. NATO wasn't going to allow the corrupt Ukraine to join any time soon if ever, so why now?



And yeah, who is going to benefit more when the price of oil and gas goes up, that would be Putin, not us, We could be looking at gas at prices we have never seen before.

The West will back down. NS2 was never opened but Putin still has 2 pipelines running into Europe. The NS2 is bullshit. You can’t take away what he never had. The US is still buying 100,000 barrels a day from Russia. Joey Bribes has already dipped into our reserves that Trump filled. We’re cooked. Putin knows it. People will go nuts with the price increases..

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by VitaMan

What would Gorby do ?

Nothing.

[bambino]

People here don’t understand that Putin is fighting a much deeper evil. One only needs to look at Trudope in Canada.

[VitaMan]

Plenty of bloviating

[The_Waco_Kid]

Originally Posted by VitaMan

Plenty of bloviating

says the "independently wealthy" day trader. everybody is somebody on the internet.

i'm Brad Pitt.




because i said so.

BAAHHHAAAAAAA