Our race to the bottom continues...

[F-Sharp]

Originally Posted by Laz

That is my response. It is the only one I will make since it is clear that arguing with you is futile. You will not consider anyone elses opinion and I hate typing this much.

You're absolutely wrong about that. I always consider others opinions, and there's no reason to always agree with them. I for one I am simply grateful you made no attempt at passing yours off as fact. Just a few short comments and I will leave this one up for grabs from everyone else. You and I have articulated enough here already.

Originally Posted by Laz

When did you get the right to tell someone what they have to do with their money.

I was given that right the moment corporations like GE, Boeing, and Exxon/Mobil were allowed to dodge paying taxes no matter the profits they made in this country and decided to pass that burden on to me.

Originally Posted by Laz

You put down 401k plans but they are a terrific retirement vehicle for millions of people.

They're risky, and they're shit. If I wanted to gamble my life savings away I'd do it Vegas with a HDH on each arm. Give me a good ole' fashioned pension any day.

When I asked if you thought anyone would benefit by bringing those profits here you stated a simple "yes". Then proceeded to acknowledge that in your opinion, none of the items I questioned would benefit much if any from those profits. This is rhetorical, but if not any of those items, then why answer yes? What would the benefits be?

Originally Posted by Laz

the desires of the people now are not the same as they were in the 50's.

Have they really, or have we simply decided to settle for less? Much less.

I will leave it with this...is it just me or does everyone else see the comedic, yet sad irony that always seems to go along with nearly every paragraph that ever makes mention of education in this country these days?

Originally Posted by Laz

However, they pay a lot of local taxes which are used to fund an incompatant public education system.

[F-Sharp]

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

Last I checked asking you to provide proof on how much the illegals are actually paying in taxes has nothing to do with "a neighborhood in Chula Vista somewhere".

Exactly.

You stated this,

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

So you're perfectly o.k. with Illegal Aliens' untaxed money being sent back to Mexico because their families may buy American made goods with it?

http://www.eccie.net/showpost.php?p=1606654&postcou nt=66

I replied with this,

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economi...nted_Taxpayers

http://www.eccie.net/showpost.php?p=1606730&postcou nt=67

Which includes this:

http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/94.pdf

and this:

http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/126.pdf

and this:

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8...mmigration.pdf

and this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/bu...1dc383&ei=5090

and this:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=7718604


Which ultimately makes you, this:




Enough said.

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

Exactly.

You stated this,



http://www.eccie.net/showpost.php?p=1606654&postcou nt=66

I replied with this,



http://www.eccie.net/showpost.php?p=1606730&postcou nt=67

Which includes this:

http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/94.pdf

This link provides no information on how much federal income taxes Illegal Aliens are paying into the system. Money that remains in the system and is not reimbursed.

and this:

http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/126.pdf

This link provides no information on how much federal income taxes Illegal Aliens are paying into the system. Money that remains in the system and is not reimbursed.
and this:

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8...mmigration.pdf

This link provides no information on how much federal income taxes Illegal Aliens are paying into the system. Money that remains in the system and is not reimbursed.
and this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/bu...1dc383&ei=5090
This link provides no information on how much federal income taxes Illegal Aliens are paying into the system. Money that remains in the system and is not reimbursed.
and this:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=7718604

This link provides no information on how much federal income taxes Illegal Aliens are paying into the system. Money that remains in the system and is not reimbursed.

Guess you're the only looser in this debate! You are the epitome of the guy that just keeps throwing Sh*t at the wall and hopes some of it will stick.




Enough said.

YEP!

[F-Sharp]

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

This link provides no information on how much federal income taxes Illegal Aliens are paying into the system. Money that remains in the system and is not reimbursed.

Actually it does. You either:

a. couldn't be bothered to read it
b. didn't understand it
c. too stubborn to accept it, or
d. all of the above.

Since my vote is d, I will walk you though it.

As a point of reference in this quick journey, this link estimates the total Federal tax burden by illegals at $29 billion dollars. I will not only show you the Federal dollars collected by illegals that remains in the system that is not reimbursed, but I will also show you that non-reimbursed revenue stream is pretty damn close to the so-called "burden" this link claims.

Let's start with Social Security and Medicare. According to this article by the NY Times,

"...the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/bu...tion.html?_r=2

Remembering of course that illegal aliens are not eligible to collect Social Security or Medicare, this is money that is collected, but not reimbursed. This article is dated 2005 and I have read other estimates that the current amount is upwards of $9 billion or more, but for the sake of not embarassing you too badly in public, we'll use the modest $7 billion provided. You can even squabble over a billion or two if you like, but let's keep your statement above in mind, in that if even one dollar is collected and not reimbursed, your position's already defeated. That said, let's move on.

Next up, ITIN's. For those not familiar,

"IRS issues ITINs to individuals who are required to have a U.S. taxpayer identification number but who do not have, and are not eligible to obtain a Social Security Number (SSN) from the Social Security Administration (SSA).

ITINs are issued regardless of immigration status because both resident and nonresident aliens may have a U.S. filing or reporting requirement under the Internal Revenue Code."
http://www.irs.gov/individuals/artic...222209,00.html

ITIN's are essentially the instrument used by illegals to pay taxes legitimately on their income. According to this article in the NY Times,

"In 2005 alone, more than $5 billion in tax liability — the total owed, including money withheld from paychecks during the year — was reported in the 2.9 million returns that listed at least one person with an ITIN, she said. And between 1996 and 2003, such filers reported nearly $50 billion of tax liability."

Read that again in case you missed it. $5 billion in total owed in 2005. Again, this is 2005. Current estimates are upwards of $7-9 billion collected through ITIN's. Now, I can't make the claim that ALL ITIN's issued are done on behalf of illegal aliens, but it's widely accepted that most are. Mainly because they're not much use to anyone else. If you're here legally, you can be issued a SSN. Go ahead an squabble a few billion if you like, but again if even one dollar is owed and collected through ITIN filers, your position is defeated.

Lastly, and this is my personal favorite...the ESF. Not familiar?

"When an earnings report contains a name and/or SSN that does not match SSA's records and cannot be resolved, the report cannot be posted to an individual earnings record in SSA's Master Earnings File. Instead, the report is posted to the ESF, a repository for unmatched wages."

http://www.ssa.gov/oig/communication...6testimony.htm

What an ESF boils down to a SSN that can not be matched to someone, or that matches someone who is either too old or too young to work, or is dead. From the same link:

"From Tax Years (TY) 1937 through 2003, the most recent year for which data is available, the ESF accumulated about 255 million wage reports, representing $520 billion in wages, that SSA remains unable to resolve. As of October 2005, approximately 8.8 million wage reports, representing $57.8 billion in wages, remained in the suspense file for TY 2003 alone."

"SSA has stated that it believes unauthorized work by non-citizens is a major cause of wage items being posted to the ESF instead of an individual's earnings record."

Now read that again..."$8.8 billion on wage reports on $57.8 billion in wages" for tax year 2003. Again, money collected and not reimbursed.

Let's tally this before I finish up...

$7 billion in uncollectable legitimate Social Security and Medicare
$7 billion in legitimate taxes owed through ITIN's
$8.8 billion on non-legitmate ESF funds

7 + 7 + 8.8 = $22.8 Billion in "money that remains in the system and is not reimbursed".

HOLY SHIT GENIUS! That's only $6.2 billion away from the $29 billion so-called "burden" estimated in 2011. And don't forget, this data is at least six years old.

What's not included in your statement is other Federal taxes collected that are not wage based. Here's two...federal tax on gasoline and federal excise tax on utilities and communications like land lines and cell phones. Just for fun, let's play with the gas tax for a few moments:

In 2011, the Federal excise tax on gasoline is 18.4 cents per gallon.

In 2010, United States consumed about 138.6 billion gallons of gasoline. Let's do some math...

138,600,000,000 * .184 = $25,502,400,000 in Federal gasoline tax collected.

Overall, there were an estimated 254.4 million registered passenger vehicles in the United States, or 82% of the population if you prefer. If we use the same percentage against the number of illegals you get:

12 million * .82 = 9,840,000 illegal alien vehicles. We all know it's probably far less than that based on their income levels, but good luck finding that number somewhere. Let's run with it for now, just trying to prove a point.

So let's break that $25 billion on to a per vehicle figure....That's $100 dollars in Federal gasoline tax per vehicle per year. I'm know I'm not showing my math here, but trust me, it's correct.

$100 * 9,840,000 = $984,000,000

Oh, dear me, say it isn't so!! That's almost another BILLION dollars in Federal tax "money that remains in the system and is not reimbursed."

I'll leave the Federal excise tax on utilities and communications up to you if you think your Google and math skills are up to it. Bonus points if you can think of any other Federal taxes that might be collected by illegals and not reimbursed.




"...and that's all I have to say about that."

[Laz]

You have shown a guesstimate of how much money the government collects now do the other side of the equation and show government expendatures. Skip the gas tax piece since I will assume they are using the roads the gas tax pays for.

How much money is spent on law enforcement, education, health care, incarceration, welfare programs, social security, etc.

This is not a an insult of what you stated but a serious question. You clearly like to research things and I am to lazy to do it.

[F-Sharp]

Originally Posted by Laz

You have shown a guesstimate of how much money the government collects now do the other side of the equation and show government expendatures. Skip the gas tax piece since I will assume they are using the roads the gas tax pays for.

How much money is spent on law enforcement, education, health care, incarceration, welfare programs, social security, etc.

This is not a an insult of what you stated but a serious question. You clearly like to research things and I am to lazy to do it.

It's already there in the first paragraph Laz. Here it is again:

http://www.fairus.org/site/News2/708...s_iv_ctrl=1761

Total Federal expenditures according to the site are $28,645,400,000. That estimate includes almost $8 billion in law enforcment expenditures, much of which would not be there if not for these folks being here illegally. Southwest Border Prosecution, Coast Guard, National Guard, etc. Take away thos costs and you see an immediate net gain on the three sources of revenue I posted alone.

Illegals are not eligible for either welfare, Medicare, or Social Security. In the case of welfare, that doesn't mean some are not recieving it, it means that some states do not enforce it or overlook residency status.

Curious, why would you skip the gas tax because they use the roads, while ignoring the $9 billion in Social Security and Medicare contributions for programs they are not eligible for? Also, remember this money is not allocated by account for specific purpose, it all goes in to one general fund used by the government to pay our debts.

By the way, to put a little perspective on this so-called "burden", $29 billion is 8/100ths of one percent of our current $3.5 trillion dollar annual budget. That real number of $6 billion is 1.7/100ths of one percent.

[DTorrchia]

F-Sharp, I'm curious. What happens to the "unresolved" money in Social Security and in the "non-legitimate ESF funds". Obviously the Government cannot access or spend that money immediately since they first have to try to match it to a legitimate source. At what point does the money become the Government's to spend?

I was already aware of the SS/medicaid, which is why I told you that I was speaking about the Federal Income tax, not SS, medicaid, gas tax etc.

Secondly, you're pretty cavalier with throwing around a figure of 6 Billion dollars as if it's nothing.
At the risk of pointing out the obvious, and I've mentioned this numerous times, if we are spending $1.00 dollar on someone that's here illegally it's too much. If we're spending $6 BILLION dollars more than we would be without illegal immigration, that to me is a problem. That is where you and I fundamentally differ. You continue to try to minimize the impact by playing the numbers game. You throw around figures like 6 Billion dollars as if it's nothing. To me it IS something if it's money that's leaving our treasury and spent due to illegal immigration.
I've made this point several times so the stubbornness you mention is mutual.
$1.00 on illegal immigration=too much. 1,2,3,4,5,or 6 BILLION=Definitely too much!!!
So crunch the numbers anyway you want but the facts are:
1. We ARE spending more money on illegal immigration than they are contributing. You can name whatever year you want, it hasn't changed. Your OWN figures say so.
2. We've established that in border states, illegals are arrested at a higher rate than the population they represent. Even if it was even in those states, which it's not, again we have PLENTY of our own criminals right here in our Country. We certainly don't need to import more! Which brings me to my 3rd point
3. In this day and age, we simply NEED to know who is coming into our country. Are they wanted for crimes committed in their home country? Are they predators? Child molesters? Again, we certainly have enough of our own of these types of criminals, why would we want more to simply walk in? Whatever the case may be, a legal immigration process is designed to weed out undesirables. It's that simple. If there is no process and people can simply walk across our borders then we have no means to carry out even the most simple screening process. Sorry if you don't get that but that's the way it should be.
4.I know it's nice to think that Illegals only work the jobs that most Americans don't want anyway.
Well, maybe times have changed. I certainly still remember times when I would see plenty of Americans on Road Construction crews, House Construction Crews etc.
I'll tell you this. If it was between my family starving because I'm unemployed and me picking up a hammer and helping put a house up, buddy, I'll swing that hammer all day long. I happen to believe there's many Americans out there that still feel the same especially in these tough economic times.

So argue until you're blue in the face. Our Government IS spending money on illegal immigration, in several states we DO have more crimes due to illegal immigration and I believe that there ARE jobs that are not being filled by Americans because of illegal Immigration (I would tell you the story of some carpenters in the Dripping Springs area but, alas, I was told of their plight by a Border Patrol Agent and I'm sure you would simply write him up as another Phantom of my imagination. His team was however called in by Kay Bailey Hutchison who requested the Border Patrol's assistance in that area). But hey, why pay attention to what actually happens in people's lives when you can sit in your living room crunching numbers and being cavalier about Billions of dollars that are being spent needlessly.

[F-Sharp]

...And here's the latest news to come out about our race to the bottom. What is it Billy says, "You just can't make this stuff up."?

"... according to a new study from the Institute for Policy Studies. The study found that 25 of the 100 highest-paid CEOs took home more money than their company paid in federal income taxes. The average pay of those 25 CEOs was $16.7 million."

http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post...2331&GT1=33009

[F-Sharp]

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

F-Sharp, I'm curious. What happens to the "unresolved" money in Social Security and in the "non-legitmate ESF funds". Obviously the Government cannot access or spend that money immediately since they first have to try to match it to a legitimate source. At what point does the money become the Government's to spend?

Good question, and was wondering that myself. I'll do some checking.

EDIT:

I think it's here, which states:

"As of July 2002, the ESF contained approximately 236 million wage items totaling about $374 billion related to TYs 1937 through 2000 (see Figure 1). In TY 2000 alone, 9.6 million items and $49 billion in wages were posted to the ESF. Removal of wage items and their associated dollar value from the ESF only occurs when the wages can be matched and posted to an individual’s MEF."

http://www.ssa.gov/oig/ADOBEPDF/A-03-03-23038.pdf

It would appear the ESF itself never goes away. If I am understanding it correctly, the ESF is simply a record of the earnings. Remember that all government funds are placed in to one single general fund. I assume that includes money collected that gets ESF assigned. If the ESF is resolved, then I assume the resolver's Social Security statement gets updated? The resolver would have to be filing taxes to determine how much income tax they owe. I wouldn't confuse ESF with some magic bank account somewhere, or even money. It looks to me that the ESF itself is nothing more than an accounting function used by SSA, but the money being collected through these mismatched Social Security numbers is very real.

[F-Sharp]

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

I was already aware of the SS/medicaid, which is why I told you that I was speaking about the Federal Income tax, not SS, medicaid, gas tax etc.

I know you were being specific, but to me it's irrelevant if it all goes in to the same pot.

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

Secondly, you're pretty cavalier with throwing around a figure of 6 Billion dollars as if it's nothing.

That's far less than the top ten tax-dodging corporations tax liability would be if not for "creative" accounting and tax loopholes. It's $14 billion less than we pay big oil every year in subsidies. That's roughly the same amount we give away to Egypt and Israel each year in foriegn aid. And that $18 billion less than we spend to incarcerate non-violent offenders each year.

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

1. We ARE spending more money on illegal immigration than they are contributing. You can name whatever year you want, it hasn't changed. Your OWN figures say so.

As I pointed out, my own figures at least six years old and only account for a partial amount of Federal revenue streams. When you include the state and local revenue streams and the positive impact on the economy as a whole, it paints a very different picture. Besides, I have already shown you three seperate studies from two different border states that unequivocally dispute your claim. You brushed them off as "debunked" without ever showing one shred of "debunkedness".

Here they are again, since you've apparently selectively wiped them from your memory.

http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/

http://udallcenter.arizona.edu/immig...migrants08.pdf

http://wpcarey.asu.edu/seidman/reports/immigration.pdf

Nobody's ever disputed the rest of your points so I wont even comment on those any longer. You've been having an argument with yourself in that regard. I am beginning to think you just have a serious issue with Mexican's in general. You've not once in almost 500 posts in two seperate threads uttered so much as a word about the other half of the non-Mexican illegal population. You've sure gone on about "border this", and "border that" to the point of nauseum though. Care to comment why?

[Booth]

I wonder how many sessions I could buy if I had a penny for every word that's been wasted in this thread.

[F-Sharp]

Originally Posted by Booth

I wonder how many sessions I could buy if I had a penny for every word that's been wasted in this thread.

[Laz]

Thanks F-Sharp. You are right, I did not read your post carefully enough. As for why I ignore the gas tax, I wanted to focus on money collected that they do not receive benefits from. Clearly they are receiving the benefits of using roads.

I agree with Dtorcia that any amount of cost is too high. But more importantly I have a problem with them bypassing the legal process. I will concede that the lagal process needs drastic reform but that is another discussion. The US economy can only absorb so many new workers. If the illegals take those slots it makes it even more difficult for those trying to enter the US legally. Another thing to consider is that most of the illegals are from Mexico because of its proximity. There are numerous nations where people would like to leave for better opportunity. What about them? Shouldn't they have the same opportunity?

If I have a choice I want the immigrant or guest worker to be someone that has respected the process and used a legal option to enter the US. If that occurs there will be a gain to the government and our society from their presence.

Now I am sure that you and I could easily develop a process that allows guest workers or immigrants that is much faster and better than what exists now.

[F-Sharp]

Originally Posted by Laz

Thanks F-Sharp. You are right, I did not read your post carefully enough. As for why I ignore the gas tax, I wanted to focus on money collected that they do not receive benefits from. Clearly they are receiving the benefits of using roads.

I agree with Dtorcia that any amount of cost is too high. But more importantly I have a problem with them bypassing the legal process. I will concede that the lagal process needs drastic reform but that is another discussion. The US economy can only absorb so many new workers. If the illegals take those slots it makes it even more difficult for those trying to enter the US legally. Another thing to consider is that most of the illegals are from Mexico because of its proximity. There are numerous nations where people would like to leave for better opportunity. What about them? Shouldn't they have the same opportunity?

If I have a choice I want the immigrant or guest worker to be someone that has respected the process and used a legal option to enter the US. If that occurs there will be a gain to the government and our society from their presence.

Now I am sure that you and I could easily develop a process that allows guest workers or immigrants that is much faster and better than what exists now.

I've actually thought about such a process quite a bit. My idea is that a guest worker visa should be an option, taxing both employer and employee for the priviledge. Let's say 5 years with a path to citizenship. First and foremost these folks should be able to pass a basic background check, health exam, and pay any back taxes on wages already earned. From there, tax say 5% - 10% of their income under the guest worker program. This does two things, adds needed revenue to cover the expense of such a program, and also provides incentive for employers to hire legal residents first. There's no way you're ever going to remove 12 - 20 million illegals currently residing within our borders, and even if you did, the economic impact would be devastating. This entire debate about amnesty and "rewarding" so-called criminals only hurts us in the end. At this point these folks are tightly woven in to our economy. We might as well enjoy and make good use of the revenue such a program would create.

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

I know you were being specific, but to me it's irrelevant if it all goes in to the same pot.




Nobody's ever disputed the rest of your points so I wont even comment on those any longer. You've been having an argument with yourself in that regard. I am beginning to think you just have a serious issue with Mexican's in general. You've not once in almost 500 posts in two seperate threads uttered so much as a word about the other half of the non-Mexican illegal population. You've sure gone on about "border this", and "border that" to the point of nauseum though. Care to comment why?

Here we go again. When all else fails, throw out the racism card, right?
First off, as I HAVE explained several times in the two different threads you mention, the illegal immigration from our southern borders affects the State I live in, Texas.
Second, you include people that overstay their visa in the "other half" of illegal immigrants we've been talking about. Now, try to follow me here, I know it's hard but try, someone that applies for a visa to this country actually has to undergo a process to obtain that visa. That means that the person is screened. Does this mean they can't abscond or drop off the radar once they've overstayed their visa? No. It DOES mean however that they've gone through a basic screening process, BOTH in their home country (or country where they applied for their U.S. Visa) AND upon arriving at the port of entry in the United States. So it has NOTHING to do with what race they are but HOW they obtain entry into our country. Get it?
Nice try though. You think only white people discuss the illegal immigration problem in our country? Are you stuck on stupid? I have had MANY of these discussions with Hispanic friends of mine. Friends that hail from Mexico, Venezuela and Honduras. I spoke with a young Hispanic volunteer firefighter on the way to Houston and back last week. His outlook was no different than mine on illegal immigration. Guess he's racist too? I won't even go into how many of my close friends are Mexican and Black. Some of those friendships are going on 15-20+ years now.
Just because you're on the loosing end of an argument doesn't justify throwing out the racism card. It makes you look weak and desperate.