Build a Better Mouse Trap And The World Will Beat A Path To your Door: "Vaccines"?

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Why_Yes_I_Do

So why might that be? Just out of curiosity. Could it be that the covid is Zoonotic? Now, don't tell Tiny I'm quoting from Wikipdia, but:

A zoonosis (plural zoonoses, or zoonotic diseases) is an infectious disease caused by a pathogen (an infectious agent, such as a bacterium, virus, parasite or prion) that has jumped from an animal (usually a vertebrate) to a human. Typically, the first infected human transmits the infectious agent to at least one other human, who, in turn, infects others.

By even the sloppiest definition, the covid is Zoonotic. Recall it is alleged to have come from bats in the first place, even though it has an amazing affinity for the human ACE2 receptor.

Oh, one other thing, really a small thing - tiny even: If it is Zoonotic, would that not mean that it is utter folly to consider that everyone on the face of the planet needs to be double/triple/quadruple vaxxed or more to save humanity, considering most animals are reservoirs of it?

Pinky swear you didn't tell Tiny I quoted the wiki...

I take the opposite lesson from Ducbutter’s video. We need to double down on research and preparation for the next variant. And virus. As the speaker in the video said, if the virus had evolved in another animal besides mice in South Africa, perhaps it would have become more contagious while remaining just as inclined to bind to ACE 2 receptors in human lung tissue. Then many of the unvaccinated and previously uninfected in particular would be truly fucked.

The vaccines provide protection against the Omicron variant and likely will continue to provide protection against variants that arise in the future. And don’t underestimate the ability of great American companies like Pfizer and Moderna to develop new mRNA vaccines quickly.

[Ducbutter]

Originally Posted by Why_Yes_I_Do

Good times. Pepperidge Farm remembers when that goal post got moved and placed. Was it right after the vaxx will save you, which was after Oh Hell no - it's a Trump vaxx? Certainly after 2 weeks to slow the spread. Eh? Come on man, that goal post has been stuffed more times than Cum-Allah Harris.

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this. I've seen enough of what I consider to be legitimate data that shows that the shot prevents most folks from having fatal encounters with Covid. You should look at some of the videos from Dr. John Campbell on YouTube. That guy is a shill for no one.

That said, I think we are in complete agreement on the issue of mandates. I do not support them. I don't have the right to demand that anyone take part in any medical procedure for my benefit. In general, folks should focus on keeping themselves safe. It's all we can really control.

Specifically, keep yourself safe (I mean you personally). Take your Zinc and lots of vitamin D. If you can and want to, get some Ivermectin. Strap up, pick your poison and G-dspeed!

[Ducbutter]

Originally Posted by Tiny

I don’t remember exactly what Metzl said in the podcast but remember saying I don’t think he necessarily knows more than you or me. I don’t think I’d change that. His academic background is in Asian studies and the law and he doesn’t appear to have ever worked in epidemiology, virology, etc. He has invested in biotech and science fiction, but that’s not the same.

I gotta get in the kitchen and get some beef stew going. I'll get back to ya on this.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Ducbutter

I gotta get in the kitchen and get some beef stew going. I'll get back to ya on this.

Thanks. I’d be more interested in your thoughts about my other post. Proponents of the “gain of function research” theory for the origin of COVID point to no evidence of an intermediary animal between bats and humans. And bats that carry coronaviruses similar to COVID 19 aren’t native to the Wuhan area. If you can’t make a case for an intermediary animal carrying the virus in the Wuhan wet market then that makes the lab the likely suspect. (Aside: there actually is a recent paper that makes a strong case for involvement of an intermediary animal at Wuhan. I can look it up if you’re interested.) Anyway, what I’m getting at, now you’ve got evidence for spread from humans to rats and back to humans.

And then there was the case of the men in the Chinese mine who were cleaning bat guano. They remained sick with an unidentified disease for many months before dying. And later a bat virus was identified in the mine that was 96% similar genetically to the original COVID variant. There are some similarities there to the speaker’s second most likely explanation for the origin of the Omicron variant, that it arose from long term infection in an immune compromised (maybe because of HIV) individual (or individuals?)

I’m an agnostic on this by the way. There are some good arguments on both sides.

[Ducbutter]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Thanks. I’d be more interested in your thoughts about my other post. Proponents of the “gain of function research” theory for the origin of COVID point to no evidence of an intermediary animal between bats and humans. And bats that carry coronaviruses similar to COVID 19 aren’t native to the Wuhan area. If you can’t make a case for an intermediary animal carrying the virus in the Wuhan wet market then that makes the lab the likely suspect. (Aside: there actually is a recent paper that makes a strong case for involvement of an intermediary animal at Wuhan. I can look it up if you’re interested.) Anyway, what I’m getting at, now you’ve got evidence for spread from humans to rats and back to humans.

And then there was the case of the men in the Chinese mine who were cleaning bat guano. They remained sick with an unidentified disease for many months before dying. And later a bat virus was identified in the mine that was 96% similar genetically to the original COVID variant. There are some similarities there to the speaker’s second most likely explanation for the origin of the Omicron variant, that it arose from long term infection in an immune compromised (maybe because of HIV) individual (or individuals?)

I’m an agnostic on this by the way. There are some good arguments on both sides.

Firstly, you mentioned a paper you'd read in your previous post. I'd be interested in reading if it's not too much trouble to find. My stew is going to be awhile.

The problem is that all of the evidence about Covid origins is circumstantial. Part of the reason for that is that the Chinese shut everything down and eliminated possible incriminating evidence That's a strike in my book.
People with nothing to hide, hide nothing.

One of the reasons I don't believe in natural origin is because there is a complete lack of genetic evidence for it's evolution in the wild. And folks have done a lot of searching for it in many different animal species. Your paper may change that but I look forward to reading it.
The genetic similarity of the case you mentioned doesn't hold a lot of importance for me. We're 96% identical to chimps, genetically. With zero evidence to back this up, I'd bet that the entire family of corona viruses are genetically very similar.(there, that'll give somebody a chance to make me a liar) The standout difference for me is the furin cleavage sight that doesn't exist in any other corona virus. That and the lack of genetic evidence for it's evolution on to the virus' backbone. Yeah, there's a chance that the virus hit the nail on the head the first time but the probability approaches zero.
Getting back to Metzl, I clearly give him more credit than you and that's fine, I won't belabor his credentials any longer except to say that I'm sure he knows exponentially more about this issue than I do, on many levels. I'll not speak for you as you seem to be an "on the ball" kinda guy. And I salute you for it! But I caution you about listening to what I spew. I have no medical training whatsoever. In fact, I spent most of my working life as a roughneck and a motion picture studio grip but I'm curious about science and have a lot of time to read. I'm just another jerk off here with no real original thoughts of my own simply spouting the ideas and opinions of others. But at least I'll admit it.

[Tiny]

Thanks DucButter. Through self education or otherwise you know more about evolutionary biology than the rest of us.

This has a link to Michael Worobey's paper as well as a link to a discussion of it,

https://www.eccie.net/showthread.php?t=2814905

Nothing there about the Furin cleavage site though. And yes, I agree, it is suspicious that the Chinese haven't cooperated more in getting to the bottom of this.

Apparently the life cycle of these viruses is very short and they can evolve quickly. You could have the coronavirus in, say, one immune compromised individual who doesn't get rid of the active virus over a period of months, and end up with some significant mutations by the time he dies or gets well.

[Ducbutter]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Thanks DucButter. Through self education or otherwise you know more about evolutionary biology than the rest of us.

This has a link to Michael Worobey's paper as well as a link to a discussion of it,

https://www.eccie.net/showthread.php?t=2814905

Nothing there about the Furin cleavage site though. And yes, I agree, it is suspicious that the Chinese haven't cooperated more in getting to the bottom of this.

Apparently the life cycle of these viruses is very short and they can evolve quickly. You could have the coronavirus in, say, one immune compromised individual who doesn't get rid of the active virus over a period of months, and end up with some significant mutations by the time he dies or gets well.

Hang on, this will be a ramble.
Thanks for hunting down those links Tiny. I actually had seen those when you originally posted them but I didn't realize they were what you were referencing. Sorry to have wasted your time.

As for the actual idea that the virus came from the market via a racoon dog, the one critical question I didn't see asked or answered is are there racoon dogs in the vicinty of Henshi where the horseshoe bats are found? Has there been evidence found that racoon dogs carry the actual virus in question, regardless of location. I only scanned the article tonight and might have missed it so correct me if I'm wrong. China has lots of wet markets outside of Bejing so why are there no other reported cases of infected racoon dogs in any of those? Admittedly, I don't know much about the price of racoon dog meat but I can't imagine that anyone would make a 1000 mile journey(one way) over questionable roads to deliver only a couple of those critters to the Huanan(sp?) market. If it was a bigger load that likely could have slowed the trip. Yet there is no genetic evidence trail along the way where they stopped for fuel or to eat or sleep. Color me unconvinced.
Fridman also made this comical analogy during the podcast. Suppose I made a a proposal to do genetic experiments to grow a horn on a horse's forehead. I have the money, tools and know-how to do so but the county turns down my request. Then, about a year and a half to two years later there's a unicorn in my back yard. When the county asked me where it came from I said
"I don't know, it just showed up!" That's what we're being asked to believe here. Reminds me of the old punchline, "I know there's a pony under here somewhere".

Your praise of Moderna reminded me, Democrats in the US (I'm not calling you one) used to have a really healthy mistrust of corporate America and profiteering but they seem out to lunch about this. Pfizer alone is projecting between $81 and $82 Billion dollars in sales for 2022. Do you realize that the entire music recording industry sales is in the neighborhood of around $12 billion? That should give anyone cause for suspicion in my opinion. The technical abilities of the pharma industry may be unquestionable but their motives are not. There is a conflict of interest.

One final question. In looking back at some posts in the thread with the links you provided, I saw where you commented that you don't know how this whole issue became politicized. Are you kidding?

[dilbert firestorm]

ducbutter, Tiny likes to play devil's advocate on some issues.

[Ducbutter]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

ducbutter, Tiny likes to play devil's advocate on some issues.

No worries Dilbert. He's a smart guy and does so in a congenial way.
Besides, my dad used to say that I'd argue with a stop sign. He wasn't wrong.

[Salty Again]

Originally Posted by Ducbutter

No worries Dilbert. He's a smart guy and does so in a congenial way.
Besides, my dad used to say that I'd argue with a stop sign. He wasn't wrong.

WELL? .... What the Piss?!

... How was the stew there, mate?

#### Salty

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Ducbutter

Hang on, this will be a ramble.
Thanks for hunting down those links Tiny. I actually had seen those when you originally posted them but I didn't realize they were what you were referencing. Sorry to have wasted your time.

As for the actual idea that the virus came from the market via a racoon dog, the one critical question I didn't see asked or answered is are there racoon dogs in the vicinty of Henshi where the horseshoe bats are found? Has there been evidence found that racoon dogs carry the actual virus in question, regardless of location. I only scanned the article tonight and might have missed it so correct me if I'm wrong. China has lots of wet markets outside of Bejing so why are there no other reported cases of infected racoon dogs in any of those? Admittedly, I don't know much about the price of racoon dog meat but I can't imagine that anyone would make a 1000 mile journey(one way) over questionable roads to deliver only a couple of those critters to the Huanan(sp?) market. If it was a bigger load that likely could have slowed the trip. Yet there is no genetic evidence trail along the way where they stopped for fuel or to eat or sleep. Color me unconvinced.
Fridman also made this comical analogy during the podcast. Suppose I made a a proposal to do genetic experiments to grow a horn on a horse's forehead. I have the money, tools and know-how to do so but the county turns down my request. Then, about a year and a half to two years later there's a unicorn in my back yard. When the county asked me where it came from I said
"I don't know, it just showed up!" That's what we're being asked to believe here. Reminds me of the old punchline, "I know there's a pony under here somewhere".

Your praise of Moderna reminded me, Democrats in the US (I'm not calling you one) used to have a really healthy mistrust of corporate America and profiteering but they seem out to lunch about this. Pfizer alone is projecting between $81 and $82 Billion dollars in sales for 2022. Do you realize that the entire music recording industry sales is in the neighborhood of around $12 billion? That should give anyone cause for suspicion in my opinion. The technical abilities of the pharma industry may be unquestionable but their motives are not. There is a conflict of interest.

One final question. In looking back at some posts in the thread with the links you provided, I saw where you commented that you don't know how this whole issue became politicized. Are you kidding?

Ducbutter, Here are the possibilities,

1. The original COVID virus went directly from bats to humans, without passing through a laboratory or another animal

2. COVID went from bats to another animal and then to humans

3. An ancestor to COVID infected humans. It mutated, perhaps in a single individual who had the disease for a long time, or perhaps over a period of years while being mistaken for the something like the flu, before exploding in Wuhan.

4. COVID was collected from bat caves or some other source by the Wuhan researchers. The virus was not modified, and escaped from the lab.

5. COVID was collected from bat caves or some other source by the Wuhan researchers, modified through gain of function research, then leaked from the lab.

We don't know which of the preceding is correct. And if we focus all our efforts preventing future epidemics by addressing just one of the causes, it's going to bite us in the ass. MERS, SARS, Ebola and other very deadly viruses probably came from bats.

You're focusing on racoon dogs above. Please note that COVID has infected dogs, cats, tigers, lions, ferrets, mink, pigs, deer, hippos, hyenas, gorillas, otters, and apparently now rodents in South Africa. A number of these and similar animals were in Wuhan. More on the rodents later -- they may account for the mystery of the furin cleavage sites in the original COVID virus.

As to 96% genetic similarity between humans and chimpanzees, chimps are very close to humans. This virus, like I said, has a short lifespan and can mutate rapidly, and some researchers have hypothesized that a single human, who suffered from the disease for a long time, could serve as the host during the time the virus evolved from bats to COVID 19.

I mentioned this before too, but a bat virus very similar to COVID 19 was discovered in bat caves in Laos: https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-871965/v1

The furin cleavage site I guess is the mystery. But I believe there are some very smart people who study viruses who believe it arose in bats, without any modification in another animal host or the laboratory. Admittedly, that may be a minority view. (Or maybe not, I don't know.) But perhaps the modification occurred in rodents: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8216856/

As to Pfizer and Moderna, Pfizer's net earnings have risen from around $13 billion per year in 2016 to 2018 to forecasted 24 billion in 2021. Moderna went from a loss to an estimated 11 billion this year. Compare to the $5 trillion+ that the U.S. government spent on COVID relief and stimulus. Pfizer's and Moderna's profits are a drop in the bucket.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

ducbutter, Tiny likes to play devil's advocate on some issues.

So do you Dilbert

[Ducbutter]

Originally Posted by Salty Again

WELL? .... What the Piss?!

... How was the stew there, mate?

#### Salty

It was excellent! Thanks for asking. Cobber.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Ducbutter

It was excellent! Thanks for asking. Cobber.

It ought to be good as long as it took to make!

[Ducbutter]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Ducbutter, Here are the possibilities,

1. The original COVID virus went directly from bats to humans, without passing through a laboratory or another animal

2. COVID went from bats to another animal and then to humans

3. An ancestor to COVID infected humans. It mutated, perhaps in a single individual who had the disease for a long time, or perhaps over a period of years while being mistaken for the something like the flu, before exploding in Wuhan.

4. COVID was collected from bat caves or some other source by the Wuhan researchers. The virus was not modified, and escaped from the lab.

5. COVID was collected from bat caves or some other source by the Wuhan researchers, modified through gain of function research, then leaked from the lab.

We don't know which of the preceding is correct. And if we focus all our efforts preventing future epidemics by addressing just one of the causes, it's going to bite us in the ass. MERS, SARS, Ebola and other very deadly viruses probably came from bats.

You're focusing on racoon dogs above. Please note that COVID has infected dogs, cats, tigers, lions, ferrets, mink, pigs, deer, hippos, hyenas, gorillas, otters, and apparently now rodents in South Africa. A number of these and similar animals were in Wuhan. More on the rodents later -- they may account for the mystery of the furin cleavage sites in the original COVID virus.

As to 96% genetic similarity between humans and chimpanzees, chimps are very close to humans. This virus, like I said, has a short lifespan and can mutate rapidly, and some researchers have hypothesized that a single human, who suffered from the disease for a long time, could serve as the host during the time the virus evolved from bats to COVID 19.

I mentioned this before too, but a bat virus very similar to COVID 19 was discovered in bat caves in Laos: https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-871965/v1

The furin cleavage site I guess is the mystery. But I believe there are some very smart people who study viruses who believe it arose in bats, without any modification in another animal host or the laboratory. Admittedly, that may be a minority view. (Or maybe not, I don't know.) But perhaps the modification occurred in rodents: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8216856/

As to Pfizer and Moderna, Pfizer's net earnings have risen from around $13 billion per year in 2016 to 2018 to forecasted 24 billion in 2021. Moderna went from a loss to an estimated 11 billion this year. Compare to the $5 trillion+ that the U.S. government spent on COVID relief and stimulus. Pfizer's and Moderna's profits are a drop in the bucket.

Thanks for the links!