feel free to flame

[awl4knot]

Why to these reference threads always become an “Us” vs. “Them” debate? If every provider required personal information and every hobbyist refused to supply it, then we would have a Mexican standoff (can I still say that?) and the current system would collapse under the stalemate. So something has to give, and it does because we are all muddling along somehow, someway in this demimonde.

But what I don’t understand is the logic behind the “six month” rule. If hobbyists change then why is six months the demarcation point since it seems to me that these Dr. Jekyll – Mr. Hyde changes are generally unpredictable. If the social scientists can’t accurately predict violent behavior then how can escorts do any better? If that is so, then aren’t references really useless for the purposes of predicting behavior? So maybe we should chuck the reference system as a waste of time and energy?

I also don’t understand, and I may be asking for State secrets here, how a person’s full name and business affiliation is predictive of bad behavior? It just isn’t. I know that with a DOB you can have an agency run a criminal history check, and I am assuming some escorts are subscribers to the numerous databases that provide personal information, and thus the decision to see a guy is often dictated by what the computer spews out rather than any critical analysis. But I am also guessing that these searches cost money, so maybe they aren’t done all that often? I dunno; maybe someone will explain how it works.

So, if the info isn’t used for obtaining objective information, why get it? What it may do (I am guessing here) is create a deterrent to bad behavior because the escort can now out you if she feels crossed in some real or imagined way. If you have ever glimpsed at some of the Black List boards, escorts publish names, telephones and other information regularly and without fear of reprisal or recrimination. What that suggests is that the reasons given for wanting personal information may be entirely accurate or complete.

And if this information is kept of file by providers, then the fears of many hobbyists that their personal information can be compromised are justified.

I saw that one lady wrote with some passion that if her history of good service wasn’t enough of an attraction to go through her screening, then you should not contact her. I take the same position: if my years of P411 Oks, dozens of reviews, and enthusiastic references from some of the top ladies in my region aren’t good enough, I will take a powder and go where I am wanted.


I apologize if I am repeating observations already made, but I just don't have the patience to wade through all of the posts, some of which are very involved.

[Solitaire]

Originally Posted by Bobave

^^ This. Barring some *significant* life event, basic character doesn't change. Good guys don't just suddenly go bad

With all due respect... Bullshit!

We had a guy in our area recently, LONG time hobbyist, just up and flipped - turned over all of his info to LE. YES good guys can turn bad. I had another that I screened, who started out very good, respectful for a few years. Then at some point, over time, he started getting very aggressive with the ladies. Couldn't provide me with recent references, because he had hurt or scared them all. A few others seem to be good boys for 3-4 visits (over a 3-6 month period), then start doing bad things like NCNS, pulling off condoms on those who have intimate encounters, shorting pay, etc.

Now, reputable ladies do not post all this drama - we simply, politely ask for 2 recent reputable references - and either you have them, or you don't.

Now, if you still want minimum screening, you can come over this way. There are many that will be very happy to meet with you with minimal to no screening. Your encounter will be highly charged, as they are into the kinky-shiny-cuffs (different kind of booking than you anticipated), and will provide you with a very special 24hr incall location (regardless of time scheduled), and will definitely inform the public on your discreet activities (they are such exhibitionists). We lovingly refer to them as Uncle

There are also the others who are less of a "hassle", you'll no doubt have to wait for the fun to start while they are in the bathroom taking care of various cravings, and you may go home with way way more than you paid for, and more "hassle" to get rid of.

Bottom line, you get what you pay for, and part of that is the info you provide that keeps the entire community safer.

[Solitaire]

Originally Posted by watchoutthegameisrigged

For the ladies on this thread: do you take p411 oks alone as an invitation to check with those providers to learn more about a potential client?

Yes, I do, if they are recent. If they are not, I will ask the client for recent *and reputable*. Usually it is the case that he has seen a couple of those same ladies recently, even though the ok's are old. And that works perfectly well for me.

[pyramider]

Originally Posted by awl4knot

Why to these reference threads always become an “Us” vs. “Them” debate? If every provider required personal information and every hobbyist refused to supply it, then we would have a Mexican standoff (can I still say that?) and the current system would collapse under the stalemate. So something has to give, and it does because we are all muddling along somehow, someway in this demimonde.

But what I don’t understand is the logic behind the “six month” rule. If hobbyists change then why is six months the demarcation point since it seems to me that these Dr. Jekyll – Mr. Hyde changes are generally unpredictable. If the social scientists can’t accurately predict violent behavior then how can escorts do any better? If that is so, then aren’t references really useless for the purposes of predicting behavior? So maybe we should chuck the reference system as a waste of time and energy?

The ladies like to see constant behavior. Gaps in activity raise eyebrows.

I also don’t understand, and I may be asking for State secrets here, how a person’s full name and business affiliation is predictive of bad behavior? It just isn’t. I know that with a DOB you can have an agency run a criminal history check, and I am assuming some escorts are subscribers to the numerous databases that provide personal information, and thus the decision to see a guy is often dictated by what the computer spews out rather than any critical analysis. But I am also guessing that these searches cost money, so maybe they aren’t done all that often? I dunno; maybe someone will explain how it works.

The ladies used to ask for and get that info. The reason, they would check out the fucktard on Public Data, or like sites, to see if the fucktard has violent behavior in his past.

So, if the info isn’t used for obtaining objective information, why get it? What it may do (I am guessing here) is create a deterrent to bad behavior because the escort can now out you if she feels crossed in some real or imagined way. If you have ever glimpsed at some of the Black List boards, escorts publish names, telephones and other information regularly and without fear of reprisal or recrimination. What that suggests is that the reasons given for wanting personal information may be entirely accurate or complete.

And if this information is kept of file by providers, then the fears of many hobbyists that their personal information can be compromised are justified.

The vast majority of ladies did not keep files. They may have just have a list with a handle and a OK, or not.

I saw that one lady wrote with some passion that if her history of good service wasn’t enough of an attraction to go through her screening, then you should not contact her. I take the same position: if my years of P411 Oks, dozens of reviews, and enthusiastic references from some of the top ladies in my region aren’t good enough, I will take a powder and go where I am wanted.

Reviews are a poor way to check one's character. Have you read any reviews? How accurate do you thinck they are?

P411 OKs are just an okay. There is no way for the provider to state that the fucktard was maybe a little aggressive, or passive. Or any of the other little idiosyncrasies.

I apologize if I am repeating observations already made, but I just don't have the patience to wade through all of the posts, some of which are very involved.

My responses are in red.

[CarolineDavenport]

Originally Posted by awl4knot

Why to these reference threads always become an “Us” vs. “Them” debate? If every provider required personal information and every hobbyist refused to supply it, then we would have a Mexican standoff (can I still say that?) and the current system would collapse under the stalemate. So something has to give, and it does because we are all muddling along somehow, someway in this demimonde.

But what I don’t understand is the logic behind the “six month” rule. If hobbyists change then why is six months the demarcation point since it seems to me that these Dr. Jekyll – Mr. Hyde changes are generally unpredictable. If the social scientists can’t accurately predict violent behavior then how can escorts do any better? If that is so, then aren’t references really useless for the purposes of predicting behavior? So maybe we should chuck the reference system as a waste of time and energy?

I also don’t understand, and I may be asking for State secrets here, how a person’s full name and business affiliation is predictive of bad behavior? It just isn’t. I know that with a DOB you can have an agency run a criminal history check, and I am assuming some escorts are subscribers to the numerous databases that provide personal information, and thus the decision to see a guy is often dictated by what the computer spews out rather than any critical analysis. But I am also guessing that these searches cost money, so maybe they aren’t done all that often? I dunno; maybe someone will explain how it works.

So, if the info isn’t used for obtaining objective information, why get it? What it may do (I am guessing here) is create a deterrent to bad behavior because the escort can now out you if she feels crossed in some real or imagined way. If you have ever glimpsed at some of the Black List boards, escorts publish names, telephones and other information regularly and without fear of reprisal or recrimination. What that suggests is that the reasons given for wanting personal information may be entirely accurate or complete.

And if this information is kept of file by providers, then the fears of many hobbyists that their personal information can be compromised are justified.

I saw that one lady wrote with some passion that if her history of good service wasn’t enough of an attraction to go through her screening, then you should not contact her. I take the same position: if my years of P411 Oks, dozens of reviews, and enthusiastic references from some of the top ladies in my region aren’t good enough, I will take a powder and go where I am wanted.


I apologize if I am repeating observations already made, but I just don't have the patience to wade through all of the posts, some of which are very involved.

Speaking only for myself, you have some of this wrong and some of this right. I'll explain my screening and why it is what it is. I'm not trying to say I'm right for everyone. I'm saying it is right for me. I'm sure some of you will be indignant at what I do and my reasons for it, but know before you start voicing your ire, that it won't change anything. I've done it this way since pretty soon after I started, and I've never been robbed, injured, threatened, etc. I was shorted once. And I was scared by a guy from P411 who showed up under the influence of that-which-we-may-not-discuss. I get all the business I want, and I feel very safe.

First, regular screening. My assistant will usually ask for three recent references. No FBSM or agencies. I want to talk to independent escorts. Sometimes, only one answers. If she is reputable and provides a detailed reference that makes me confident she remembers you and enjoyed you, that can be enough.

If you don't have enough recent refs, or if the responses I get are lacking, but you seem to have a long track record, I will let you choose to either give me a 50% deposit, or work verification. Usually. This assures me that you are serious and not wasting my time, and also provides assurances listed below.

If you are brand-spankin' new, I will require work verification and a deposit. There are reasons for both being required. Work verification gives me assurance that you are going to behave. You won't hurt me or rob me. Because I can hurt you back. The deposit assures me that you are not LE. No vice squad in the country is going to let go of $200+ they can't get back immediately just to bust one escort. My deposit method is unique in that once you give it to me, it is mine. You can't charge it back; you can't cancel the payment. Now, with these things covered, I know that you are going to show up (you already gave me money, so I know you're serious), you're going to be on your best behavior, and I can relax.

Is this 100% fool-proof? No. But it is the best assurance I've thought of so far. I know ECCIE guys hate rigid screening, and you are absolutely allowed that. And I know some of you are out there asking very snidely how you know you can trust me. The answer is that I've been around for a few years now. And never has anyone accused me of outing them, stealing their deposit, or doing anything else terrible. I run a business. That business is not well served by scamming my clients. If you still aren't comfortable, then simply see someone else who fits your screening comfort zone a little better. We will both survive not seeing each other, I promise.

I just want ladies to understand that you CAN screen diligently. Yes, some of the more vocal guys here on this site will try to make you believe that no one will see you if you do, but I can assure you, you WILL get business if you're running your business responsibly and you have a great reputation, even from ECCIE. Despite the vocal minority here, there are a lot of guys who will be happy to submit to whatever will make you feel safe and comfortable. Screen as strictly or loosely as you see fit, and don't let anyone else dictate your level of comfort.

[Solitaire]

1. I know of NO ONE who asks for social and DL #.

2. It most certainly goes both ways. I sat out for 3 years, then when I came back, I had to rebuild my reputation. I was no special princess, neither is anyone else. Some ladies sit out for a few months to a year. They will also get a client or two to vouch for them. Its no different.

3. The 3-6 months is not arbitrary. Its about how long it takes for a guy to start showing his ass, if he if he has that tendency. Its also about how long a *bug* takes to show up in a med screening. You are obviously not thinking of *everything*. We are.

Originally Posted by Smooth Sailing

Following the logic of the ladies who have responded here, I would only see ladies that I have either seen in the last 6 months, OR who can be deemed to have been reliably reviewed by someone personally known to me. Only that confirm that they "aren't off their meds" or "haven't gone batshit crazy" since the last time I've seen them. And giving you my name, social security number, drivers license number, and where I work does NOT guarantee that I have been taking my meds. Most of us have heard the story about the "sugar baby" with 2000 clients who shot her "trick" up with heroin and left him to die. That could happen with any one of you tomorrow, regardless of how many good reviews you have.

Furthermore, despite the fact that you have protected my and a hundred other guys information in the past, who's to say that this won't be the time that your information is breached, or again, you go offer your meds, and sell or give my information to whomever.

Obviously you need to do what you feel comfortable doing, but at a certain point, this all becomes ludicrous. At a certain point there needs to be a level of trust that goes beyond "6 months" or other arbitrary lines in the sand. I'm not sure what that is, but I can tel you this, I thought with my little head for my early days in the business. I won't do that any more. So I would likely just move on.

[Tiffani Jameson]

Originally Posted by CarolineDavenport

Is this 100% fool-proof? No. But it is the best assurance I've thought of so far. I know ECCIE guys hate rigid screening, and you are absolutely allowed that. And I know some of you are out there asking very snidely how you know you can trust me. The answer is that I've been around for a few years now. And never has anyone accused me of outing them, stealing their deposit, or doing anything else terrible. I run a business. That business is not well served by scamming my clients. If you still aren't comfortable, then simply see someone else who fits your screening comfort zone a little better. We will both survive not seeing each other, I promise.

I just want ladies to understand that you CAN screen diligently. Yes, some of the more vocal guys here on this site will try to make you believe that no one will see you if you do, but I can assure you, you WILL get business if you're running your business responsibly and you have a great reputation, even from ECCIE. Despite the vocal minority here, there are a lot of guys who will be happy to submit to whatever will make you feel safe and comfortable. Screen as strictly or loosely as you see fit, and don't let anyone else dictate your level of comfort.

Please and thank you.

[JohnnyYanks]

Originally Posted by CarolineDavenport

... You won't hurt me or rob me. Because I can hurt you back ...

And there's the rub. Some of us aren't willing to assume that risk. In fact, consider it foolish to do so.

You're the business owner, I'm the customer. You expect me to assume the risk to patronize your business? Not a chance.

[CarolineDavenport]

You expect me to assume the risk of putting myself in a private setting with a complete unknown who is likely twice my size and definitely stronger than me for hopefully a few hundred dollars? Not a chance.

You're forgetting that there's an easy way to avoid this. References. Those screening tactics are ONLY for those who do not have sufficient references. Not okay with the risk of alternate screening? Great! Get references. Problem solved.

[sketchball82]

Originally Posted by CarolineDavenport

Speaking only for myself, you have some of this wrong and some of this right. I'll explain my screening and why it is what it is. I'm not trying to say I'm right for everyone. I'm saying it is right for me. I'm sure some of you will be indignant at what I do and my reasons for it, but know before you start voicing your ire, that it won't change anything. I've done it this way since pretty soon after I started, and I've never been robbed, injured, threatened, etc. I was shorted once. And I was scared by a guy from P411 who showed up under the influence of that-which-we-may-not-discuss. I get all the business I want, and I feel very safe.

First, regular screening. My assistant will usually ask for three recent references. No FBSM or agencies. I want to talk to independent escorts. Sometimes, only one answers. If she is reputable and provides a detailed reference that makes me confident she remembers you and enjoyed you, that can be enough.

If you don't have enough recent refs, or if the responses I get are lacking, but you seem to have a long track record, I will let you choose to either give me a 50% deposit, or work verification. Usually. This assures me that you are serious and not wasting my time, and also provides assurances listed below.

If you are brand-spankin' new, I will require work verification and a deposit. There are reasons for both being required. Work verification gives me assurance that you are going to behave. You won't hurt me or rob me. Because I can hurt you back. The deposit assures me that you are not LE. No vice squad in the country is going to let go of $200+ they can't get back immediately just to bust one escort. My deposit method is unique in that once you give it to me, it is mine. You can't charge it back; you can't cancel the payment. Now, with these things covered, I know that you are going to show up (you already gave me money, so I know you're serious), you're going to be on your best behavior, and I can relax.

Is this 100% fool-proof? No. But it is the best assurance I've thought of so far. I know ECCIE guys hate rigid screening, and you are absolutely allowed that. And I know some of you are out there asking very snidely how you know you can trust me. The answer is that I've been around for a few years now. And never has anyone accused me of outing them, stealing their deposit, or doing anything else terrible. I run a business. That business is not well served by scamming my clients. If you still aren't comfortable, then simply see someone else who fits your screening comfort zone a little better. We will both survive not seeing each other, I promise.

I just want ladies to understand that you CAN screen diligently. Yes, some of the more vocal guys here on this site will try to make you believe that no one will see you if you do, but I can assure you, you WILL get business if you're running your business responsibly and you have a great reputation, even from ECCIE. Despite the vocal minority here, there are a lot of guys who will be happy to submit to whatever will make you feel safe and comfortable. Screen as strictly or loosely as you see fit, and don't let anyone else dictate your level of comfort.

Respectfully, you're young, fit, georgeous, and (dare-I-say-it) white. Physically, you have the total package. You're obviously quite well spoken, and that is quite the turn on for us intellectuals. However, the basic nature of statistical economics is probability theory and supply-and-demand. Because you're so beautiful and obviously educated, many guys would be willing to jump through those hoops. Statistically speaking, that puts you at one of the extremes of the spectrum, possibly even an outlier.

However, most guys (including me) would never do this for most providers. What's viable to you may not be to someone else, and all respect but you're doing a real disservice to average-joe-provider. Despite your hedging and noting it works for you and not necessarily others, many will read what you've said and assume that means it will work for them. Ultimately, they will not get the same bookings you do and such screening practices will not be sustainable for them.

The point is that some providers command this demand, but the vast majority do not. You are free to set whatever policies you wish, but (to the general population of providers) ultimately if your business is not what you desire, please listen your your clientele telling you your screening is too rigid, or your prices are too high, or you don't offer the services they wish. Don't assume that because some providers may still have demand despite such (again respectfully but also frankly) over-zealous screening that most will.

PS - Caroline: PM me if you every come to the greater Detroit or Chicago areas. I wasn't joking about being willing to jump through hoops.

[JohnnyYanks]

Originally Posted by CarolineDavenport

You expect me to assume the risk of putting myself in a private setting with a complete unknown who is likely twice my size and definitely stronger than me for hopefully a few hundred dollars?

I'm saying no such thing.

I'm saying you opened the business, the business of inviting large strange men into your private setting for a few hundred dollars. As such, the burden of risk belongs with you, the Proprietor of said business, not me, the Customer.

What I haven't said, because I believe to be so obvious, is it's your business and you are free to operate it however you please. I only object to the insistence that requesting RL info is perfectly REASONABLE, because the lady has to assume such risk. Hello, the lady opened a risky business. This customer is not going to assume your risk for you. It is not reasonable at all.

[Old-T]

Originally Posted by JohnnyYanks

And there's the rub. Some of us aren't willing to assume that risk. In fact, consider it foolish to do so.

You're the business owner, I'm the customer. You expect me to assume the risk to patronize your business? Not a chance.

I don't believe anyone is telling you to assume all the risk. But to expect a lady to assume it all either is equally unrealistic. And no matter what we would like the world to be, as Caroline points out, there is no 100% safe, and the issue is finding a way to share the risk--hopefully while minimizing it for both--that is acceptable to both parties.

The real message, I believe, from this whole thread is that we all have different comfort levels for safety. Trying to see a lady with a significantly different definition of her comfort level is just not likely to be a good match. If there is room to negotiate--i.e. various options for screening--and you really want to see her, then "negotiate". If not, move on. I have definitely had to do it, and the sun still rose the next day.

[CarolineDavenport]

Originally Posted by sketchball82

Respectfully, you're young, fit, georgeous, and (dare-I-say-it) white. Physically, you have the total package. You're obviously quite well spoken, and that is quite the turn on for us intellectuals. However, the basic nature of statistical economics is probability theory and supply-and-demand. Because you're so beautiful and obviously educated, many guys would be willing to jump through those hoops. Statistically speaking, that puts you at one of the extremes of the spectrum, possibly even an outlier.

However, most guys (including me) would never do this for most providers. What's viable to you may not be to someone else, and all respect but you're doing a real disservice to average-joe-provider. Despite your hedging and noting it works for you and not necessarily others, many will read what you've said and assume that means it will work for them. Ultimately, they will not get the same bookings you do and such screening practices will not be sustainable for them.

The point is that some providers command this demand, but the vast majority do not. You are free to set whatever policies you wish, but (to the general population of providers) ultimately if your business is not what you desire, please listen your your clientele telling you your screening is too rigid, or your prices are too high, or you don't offer the services they wish. Don't assume that because some providers may still have demand despite such (again respectfully but also frankly) over-zealous screening that most will.

PS - Caroline: PM me if you every come to the greater Detroit or Chicago areas. I wasn't joking about being willing to jump through hoops.

I see your point, though I disagree. As long as a lady IS willing to take care of herself and her business, she can absolutely screen strictly and still get plenty of clientele. I appreciate all the compliments, but I don't think you're giving other ladies enough credit. Sure, if she doesn't take care of herself or run her business well, she's going to have trouble pulling it off. But what if I told you I know quite a few ladies who screen as stringently as I do, and look nothing like me? These ladies include women over 40, black ladies, hispanic ladies, and ladies whose body types are on the larger side. And they all do fine. A good reputation and marketing that attracts the right clientele go a long way.

That paragraph was for you, now this next one is for the general public (so you don't think I'm ranting at you, specifically.)

I could be a provider that refuses to see newbies, and most of you that are so indignant would have no problem with that. However, I decided that there WAS a way that I could feel comfortable with a newbie, and I put that option out there. No one is forced to take it. It is simply there if someone wants it. I honestly don't understand why some gents get so upset about a lady having a few options that let newbies get a quality experience without having to resort to BP or ladies who might not be safe to see. I can't seem to say it enough times... references are still an option. Sorry, just seems like that isn't really coming across. :P

Now I get that in the original post she appears to be asking for every client's personal info. I'm sure he knew the only logical answer was just to move on, and thus has received said advice. I hope he found someone more to his liking.

PS - I used to visit Chicago fairly often. Where were you?!

[awl4knot]

Thanks for the interesting comments, but I think we are not really talking about the same things. Here are my responses.

Originally Posted by CarolineDavenport

Speaking only for myself, you have some of this wrong and some of this right.

Usually I'm told that I got all of it wrong. This is progress.

First, regular screening. My assistant will usuall I'll explain my screening and why it is what it is. I'm not trying to say I'm right for everyone. I'm saying it is right for me. I'm sure some of you will be indignant at what I do and my reasons for it, but know before you start voicing your ire, that it won't change anythingy ask for three recent references. No FBSM or agencies. I want to talka detailed reference that makes me confident she remembers you and enjoyed you, that can be enough.

No problem so far, but the OP's point was about stale references.

If you don't have enough recent refs, or if the responses I get are lacking, but you seem to have a long track record, I will let you choose to either give me a 50% deposit, or work verification. Usually. This assures me that you are serious and not wasting my time, and also provides assurances listed below.

Your concern here seems to be financial safety versus personal safety. You are putting people to the sticking point, to quote the Bard, but if I give you one deposit do you keep asking for more?

If you are brand-spankin' new, I will require work verification and a deposit. There are reasons for both being required. Work verification gives me assurance that you are going to behave. You won't hurt me or rob me. Because I can hurt you back. The deposit assures me that you are not LE. No vice squad in the country is going to let go of $200+ they can't get back immediately just to bust one escort. My deposit method is unique in that once you give it to me, it is mine. You can't charge it back; you can't cancel the payment. Now, with these things covered, I know that you are going to show up (you already gave me money, so I know you're serious), you're going to be on your best behavior, and I can relax.

And as JohnnyYanks said, "There's the rub." You keep the personal information as a deterrent, and I bet you dollars to donuts that is the unspoken reason why many providers ask for the personal info from every monger. It doesn't predict safety; it insures it through the threat of disclosure.

Is this 100% fool-proof? No. But it is the best assurance I've thought of so far. I know ECCIE guys hate rigid screening, and you are absolutely allowed that. And I know some of you are out there asking very snidely how you know you can trust me. The answer is that I've been around for a few years now. And never has anyone accused me of outing them, stealing their deposit, or doing anything else terrible. I run a business. That business is not well served by scamming my clients. If you still aren't comfortable, then simply see someone else who fits your screening comfort zone a little better. We will both survive not seeing each other, I promise.

So why doesn't that apply to mongers who have been around longer than you and arguably have better track records for deportment and financial stability? See my comments below for more amplification.

I just want ladies to understand that you CAN screen diligently. Yes, some of the more vocal guys here on this site will try to make you believe that no one will see you if you do, but I can assure you, you WILL get business if you're running your business responsibly and you have a great reputation, even from ECCIE. Despite the vocal minority here, there are a lot of guys who will be happy to submit to whatever will make you feel safe and comfortable. Screen as strictly or loosely as you see fit, and don't let anyone else dictate your level of comfort.

Originally Posted by CarolineDavenport

You expect me to assume the risk of putting myself in a private setting with a complete unknown who is likely twice my size and definitely stronger than me for hopefully a few hundred dollars? Not a chance.

Let's look at the risk factor from the Hobbyist's point of view: "You expect me to risk decades of personal and professional achievement by providing personal information for a POA?" Not a chance.

You're forgetting that there's an easy way to avoid this. References. Those screening tactics are ONLY for those who do not have sufficient references. Not okay with the risk of alternate screening? Great! Get references. Problem solved.

No, some ladies say categorically if your references, no matter how many and no matter from whom, are six months old, they want your private information. And, as I have said, if the issue is personal safety, that position doesn't make sense. If the issue is having leverage in case something goes wrong, it makes a lot of sense.

[CarolineDavenport]

I think I can clear at least one thing up. The 6 month rule. Again, only speaking for myself.

The reasons I have a 6mo-1yr reference window (depending on who the reference is, general impression of you I have so far, and various other factors including how high the sun rose that day) are thus:

1) If it is further back than 6 months, I doubt she remembers you.
2) I feel like there is a limit to how long I am willing to extend you the courtesy of a reference without you coming to see me again. I'm not your lifelong membership into the hobby club just because you came to see me one time. That membership lasts at most one year. After that, it is time to renew your membership, or find another supplier.
3) Behavior DOES change. Maybe you took a hiatus and forgot how to wash (this happens often enough, believe me.) Maybe you went through a nasty divorce over the past year and now you have this vendetta against women that's been building and you're keyed to take it out on me. (This also happens.) Maybe you gained 60 pounds since the last time anyone saw you. There are lots of ways people change ALL THE TIME. Having RECENT references is not 100% assurance, sure, but it beats a reference from a year ago who has no idea that you've changed significantly. I want to know that someone saw you RECENTLY and you are likely to be exactly as she describes.

I'm not saying any of this doesn't apply to providers as well. But that is where the power is in your hands, my loves. You are free to choose whomever you please. You are not forced to see me, and I'm not forced to see you. I find that lovely. Yes, I chose to put myself on the market. But it is nice that I get to set the terms of the interaction once you have decided you'd like to see me. And no amount of telling me I'm doing it wrong (for you) will change that. Just like no amount of fit throwing will convince you to spend your money on a lady that doesn't meet your standards. We all make our choices.