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Old 10-05-2017, 10:42 AM   #61
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in this scenario, yes, it would be extremely difficult for a Hotel guest to stop the shooter.. unusually, he covered himself well.. however.. let's be real.. the guy was 32 floors up.. it's nighttime.. who on the ground, realistically, could whip out a firearm and shoot the guy? even witnesses on the ground were perplexed at where the shots were coming from. the only possible, again, realistic answer is a sharpshooter stationed up high.

but sharpshooters at events are not realistic either.
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Old 10-05-2017, 10:46 AM   #62
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Nothing that can pass in the foreseeable future will stop these kinds of attacks. I’ll concede that. We could make them marginally less likely or deadly, but unless we are willing to take radical steps to get rid of the guns that our society is awash with, real progress won’t be made. But to say nothing could be done is foolish. Why no just admit that it’s OK in your mind to allow 20-30,000 of your fellow citizens a year to die so you can compensate for you small dick, because your a pussy and are afraid of your own shadow, (or whatever psychological kink you have that makes you crave a gun) and feel better by toting a gun.
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Old 10-05-2017, 10:49 AM   #63
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I'm not trying to be snarky. The police response in this shooting was pretty amazing if you compare it to some others.
Charles Whitman fired from the UAT main building clock tower for 96 minutes before he was stopped and killed 15 people. Paddock's rampage was stopped in 15 minutes and he was heavier armed and better prepared.
Unfortunately, he chose a very target rich environment with 20,000 people in close proximity.

Yeah, yeah, I realize that's apples and oranges, 1966 vs 2017.
Everything is different but still the same.
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Old 10-05-2017, 12:17 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by 2short@desky View Post
Who said anything about handguns? Mix a few certified marksmen in the crowds with a zeroed in 300 WinMags and they score a couple of times and it's a guaranteed showstopper. These crazy fucks that do these things are total pussies. They almost always commit suicide after the act...that alone tells me that they know it is wrong and horrible, yet they equate some honor in disposing of themselves, a kind of final statement. If they were not allowed to do so and instantly snuffed out, this perceived final statement being nullified would give them pause.
He had a hotel full of human shields. Even the best shots in the world wouldn't try to make that shot while also under fire themselves. They wouldn't be able to take aim without getting hit. If they were able to try aiming,They could miss and hit amother innocent.

This was tragic but otherwise unavoidable.
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Old 10-05-2017, 12:19 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by TexTushHog View Post
Why no just admit that it’s OK in your mind to allow 20-30,000 of your fellow citizens a year to die so you can compensate for you small dick, because your a pussy and are afraid of your own shadow, (or whatever psychological kink you have that makes you crave a gun) and feel better by toting a gun.
This violates more than one of ECCIE's forum guidelines. I'm not reporting it, but please consider responding with rational responses instead of name-calling.
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Old 10-05-2017, 12:28 PM   #66
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But what if the sharpshooter is the suspect next time?


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Originally Posted by TheWanderer View Post
Oh I'm with you. I'm a firm believer in the statement:
'The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

Sharpshooters in place with high powered rifles will probably be the norm soon...concerts, ball games, festivals, etc.
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Old 10-05-2017, 12:52 PM   #67
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Good point. Can you imagine the mayhem if citizens would have started firing at the shooter and then the SWAT team or other new cops arrived on the scene with Dispatch giving them some bogus information....would have been like something out of Diehard.
Everybody shooting at everybody.
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Old 10-05-2017, 01:54 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexTushHog View Post
Nothing that can pass in the foreseeable future will stop these kinds of attacks. I’ll concede that. We could make them marginally less likely or deadly, but unless we are willing to take radical steps to get rid of the guns that our society is awash with, real progress won’t be made. But to say nothing could be done is foolish. Why no just admit that it’s OK in your mind to allow 20-30,000 of your fellow citizens a year to die so you can compensate for you small dick, because your a pussy and are afraid of your own shadow, (or whatever psychological kink you have that makes you crave a gun) and feel better by toting a gun.
That's the biggest crock I've seen in print in a while. Chicago, Detroit, and Oakland proved you wrong way back there. There will always be guns, time for you to get used to it. Evil people will go through extraordinary efforts to do evil. Your mentality suggests trucks should be outlawed as well...isn't that the MO of most of the recent terrorist attacks? What is needed is a much better alert system and response awareness so that these incidents are neutralized before they happen with such horrific casualty.
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Old 10-05-2017, 03:45 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexTushHog View Post
Nothing that can pass in the foreseeable future will stop these kinds of attacks. I’ll concede that. We could make them marginally less likely or deadly, but unless we are willing to take radical steps to get rid of the guns that our society is awash with, real progress won’t be made. But to say nothing could be done is foolish. Why no just admit that it’s OK in your mind to allow 20-30,000 of your fellow citizens a year to die so you can compensate for you small dick, because your a pussy and are afraid of your own shadow, (or whatever psychological kink you have that makes you crave a gun) and feel better by toting a gun.
Are you seriously a lawyer? Are you not familiar with the United States Constitution and the purpose of the people being able to protect themselves from the threat of tyranny? Or did you skip that part?

I don't like what people do with their freedom of speech sometimes, but it doesn't mean that right should be taken away. The right to bear arms is literally right behind the right of freedom of speech, religion, assembly, and the press. It's not about what kind of guns people should own, it's about being able to protect ourselves in a worse case scenario situation. Our founders knew the realities of tyranny. That's why the right to bear arms is so high up the proverbial food chain in our bill of rights.

Americans own 122 guns per 100 people. Yet there are only 10 deaths per 100,000. In contrast, Brazil has 8 guns per 100 people and 21 deaths per 100,000. Columbia has 5.9/100 guns and 26/100,000 deaths. El Salvador has 5.6/100 guns and 45/100,000 deaths!

I could literally go on and on and on and on...

Timothy McVey didn't fire one shot.

Guns DON'T kill people. Crazy people kill people. In today's world, the internet enables crazy people to do crazier things. The age of information's dark side.

Ignorantly, focusing on guns isn't going to make one damn bit of difference. It's a distraction. And a means to convince small-minded people that giving up their last defense against tyranny is a good idea.

The judicial branch of our government has been destroying this country for decades, since FDR convinced everyone that socialism was a good thing and freedom to pursue our own liberties were bad. Gun control is next on the list of bench legislation. Congress panders to uninformed idiots with feel good speeches and empty promises to get votes, then uses and abuses whoring judges and whoring lawyers to do their bidding. Y'all have a fucked up kind of need to control everything.

I'm way WAY more concerned with the likes of you than a few greedy gun lobbyists in Washington. You motherfuckers are everywhere, find your way into everything. Like a damn cancer. Contorting every damn word in the Constution to make our government as big and powerful as possible. I'm surprised you assholes haven't cried about the commerce clause being your justification for taking guns away from people. You use it to try and control just about everything else these days. Smfh
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Old 10-05-2017, 03:57 PM   #70
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Two small points. Local gun control laws don’t work because of the obvious reason that guns are portable and easily cross jurisdictional lines. That’s why any solution has to be nation wide and involve import restrictions.

As for the Constitution, even with the recent in error reinterpretation of Heller, you could still have some incomplete, but partially effective gun control legislation. Even Scalia’s horrible opinion recognized plenty of ro9m for restrictions on the “right”.

But it’s a moot question. Americans don’t care much about these deaths and nothing even approaching scale of what needs to be done will be done. And half measures will only embolden gun nuts to further claim gun control doesn’t work. It’s not an issue I pay any real attention to these days, just like global climate change. Sadly are too selfish or crazy to even think rationally about the issue.
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Old 10-05-2017, 04:07 PM   #71
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So you admit you don't even pay attention really. And yet you want to position yourself as someone who knows shit about this. Why because you went to lawschool? You can't handle facts so you delve into name calling and emotional pleas, demonizing Americans who disagree with you as selfish and heartless. So progressive...

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Two small points. Local gun control laws don’t work because of the obvious reason that guns are portable and easily cross jurisdictional lines. That’s why any solution has to be nation wide and involve import restrictions.
And there it is: the commerce clause. Smh
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Old 10-05-2017, 06:30 PM   #72
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Default These killers get way too much publicity.

I think this guy was checking out and wanted his name remembered, Even if it was remembered as a crazy killer. He gave his girlfriend 100,000 and sent her back to the Philippines. He planned this mass shooting a year or more in advance. Collected bomb making chemicals and guns that he would need and became a high stakes gambler so he could get the suite he wanted, at the hotel he wanted, on the day/week he wanted. He actually looked at other areas with big events going on. There are records that he been casing other locations with a view. He wanted his name in every paper, TV, social media, and even abroad. These killers get way too much publicity.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/16/us/20-...cts/index.html

Here is a list of the deadliest single day mass shootings in US history from 1949 to the present. If the shooting lasted more than a single day, it's not listed.

Events:
58 killed - October 1, 2017 - In Las Vegas, 64-year-old Stephen Paddock of Mesquite, Nevada, rains gunfire on a crowd of 22,000 concertgoers from the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino, killing 58 people and injuring almost 500. Witnesses say the gunshots last between 10 and 15 minutes. Officers breach Paddock's hotel room to find him dead. Authorities believe Paddock killed himself and that he acted alone.

49 killed - June 12, 2016 - Omar Saddiqui Mateen, 29, opens fire inside Pulse, a gay nightclub, in Orlando. At least 49 people are killed and more than 50 are injured. Police shoot and kill Mateen during an operation to free hostages officials say he was holding at the club.

32 killed - April 16, 2007 - Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Virginia. A gunman, 23-year-old student Seung-Hui Cho, goes on a shooting spree killing 32 people in two locations and wounding an undetermined number of others on campus. The shooter then commits suicide.

27 killed - December 14, 2012 - Sandy Hook Elementary School - Newtown, Connecticut. Adam Lanza, 20, guns down 20 children, ages six and seven, and six adults, school staff and faculty, before turning the gun on himself. Investigating police later find Nancy Lanza, Adam's mother, dead from a gunshot wound.

23 killed - October 16, 1991 - In Killeen, Texas, 35-year-old George Hennard crashes his pickup truck through the wall of a Luby's Cafeteria. After exiting the truck, Hennard shoots and kills 23 people. He then commits suicide.

21 killed - July 18, 1984 - In San Ysidro, California, 41-year-old James Huberty, armed with a long-barreled Uzi, a pump-action shotgun and a handgun, shoots and kills 21 adults and children at a local McDonald's. A police sharpshooter kills Huberty one hour after the rampage begins.

18 killed - August 1, 1966 - In Austin, Texas, Charles Joseph Whitman, a former US Marine, kills 16 and wounds at least 30 while shooting from a University of Texas tower. Police officers Ramiro Martinez and Houston McCoy shoot and kill Whitman in the tower. Whitman had also killed his mother and wife earlier in the day.

14 killed - December 2, 2015 - Married couple Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik open fire on an employee gathering taking place at Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, killing 14 people.

14 killed - August 20, 1986 - In Edmond, Oklahoma, part-time mail carrier Patrick Henry Sherrill, armed with three handguns kills 14 postal workers in 10 minutes and then takes his own life with a bullet to the head.

13 killed - November 5, 2009 - Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan kills 13 people and injures 32 at Fort Hood, Texas, during a shooting rampage. He is convicted and sentenced to death.

13 killed - April 3, 2009 - In Binghamton, New York, Jiverly Wong kills 13 people and injures four during a shooting at an immigrant community center. He then kills himself.

13 killed - April 20, 1999 - Columbine High School - Littleton, Colorado. Eighteen-year-old Eric Harris and 17-year-old Dylan Klebold kill 12 fellow students and one teacher before committing suicide in the school library.

13 killed - February 18, 1983 - Three men enter the Wah Mee gambling and social club in Seattle, rob the 14 occupants and then shoot each in the head, killing 13. Two of the men, Kwan Fai Mak and Benjamin Ng, are convicted of murder in August 1983. Both are serving life in prison. The third, Wai-Chiu "Tony" Ng, after years on the run in Canada, is eventually convicted of first-degree robbery and second-degree assault. He is deported to Hong Kong in 2014.

13 killed - September 25, 1982 - In Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania, 40-year-old George Banks, a prison guard, kills 13 people including five of his own children. In September 2011, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court overturns his death sentence stating that Banks is mentally incompetent.

13 killed - September 5, 1949 - In Camden, New Jersey, 28-year-old Howard Unruh, a veteran of World War II, shoots and kills 13 people as he walks down Camden's 32nd Street. His weapon of choice is a German-crafted Luger pistol. He is found insane and is committed to a state mental institution. He dies at the age of 88.

12 killed - September 16, 2013 - Shots are fired inside the Washington Navy Yard, killing 12. The shooter, identified as Aaron Alexis, 34, is also killed.

12 killed - July 20, 2012 - Twelve people are killed, and 58 are wounded in a shooting at a screening of the new Batman film in Aurora, Colorado. James E. Holmes, 24, dressed head-to-toe in protective tactical gear, sets off two devices of some kind before spraying the theater with bullets from an AR-15 rifle, a 12-gauge shotgun and at least one of two .40-caliber handguns police recovered at the scene. On July 16, 2015, Holmes is found guilty on all 165 counts against him, 24 first-degree murder, 140 attempted murder and one count of possession or control of an explosive or incendiary device. He is sentenc12 killed - July 29, 1999 - In Atlanta, 44-year-old Mark Barton kills his wife and two children at his home. He then opens fire in two different brokerage houses killing nine people and wounding 12. He later kills himself.

10 killed - March 10, 2009 - In Alabama, Michael McLendon of Kinston, kills 10 and himself. The dead include his mother, grandparents, aunt and uncle.

9 killed - October 1, 2015 - Gunman Christopher Sean Harper-Mercer shoots and kills nine people, injuring another nine, at Umpqua Community College in Roseburg, Oregon. The shooter dies after a gun battle with police at the college. Six weapons were recovered at the school; another seven were recovered at Harper-Mercer's home.

9 killed - June 17, 2015 - Dylann Roof, 21, shoots and kills nine people inside the historic Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, in Charleston, South Carolina. Eight die at the scene; a ninth dies at a hospital. Roof is arrested the following day; according to police, he confesses and tells investigators he wanted to start a race war. Roof is convicted of murder and hate crimes in federal court and a jury recommends the death penalty. He would be the first person executed for committing federal hate crimes.

9 killed - March 21, 2005 - Red Lake High School, Red Lake, Minnesota. Sixteen-year-old Jeff Weise kills his grandfather and another adult, five students, a teacher and a security officer. He then kills himself.

9 killed - August 10, 1991 - Six monks, a nun, a monk in training and a temple worker are found shot to death at Wat Promkunaram, a Buddhist temple in Waddell, Arizona. Johnathan Doody, 17, and Alessandro Garcia, 16, are later convicted of the crime and receive multiple life sentences.

9 killed - June 18, 1990 - In Jacksonville, Florida, 42-year-old James Pough, angry about his car being repossessed, opens fire at a General Motors Acceptance Corp. office, killing nine people. Pough takes his own life.

8 killed - October 12, 2011 - Eight people are killed during a shooting at the Salon Meritage in Seal Beach, California. The suspect, Scott Evans Dekraai, 41, of Huntington Beach, is arrested without incident as he is trying to leave the scene. The eight victims include Dekraai's ex-wife, Michelle Fournier, 48. He was armed with three guns -- a 9 mm Springfield, a Smith & Wesson .44 Magnum, and a Heckler & Koch .45 -- and was wearing body armor during the shooting rampage. After a delay of several years due to allegations of prosecutorial misconduct, Dekraai is sentenced on September 22, 2017, to eight consecutive terms of life in prison without parole, plus an additional term of 232 years to life for attempted murder.

8 killed - August 3, 2010 - Manchester, Connecticut - Omar Thornton kills eight co-workers at Hartford Distributors before turning the gun on himself. Thornton had been asked to resign for stealing and selling alcoholic beverages.

8 killed - January 19, 2010 - Christopher Speight, 39, kills eight people at a house in Appomattox, Virginia. He surrenders to police at the scene the next morning. In February 2013, he is sentenced to five life terms plus 18 years.

8 killed - March 29, 2009 - In Carthage, North Carolina, 45-year-old Robert Stewart kills a nurse and seven elderly patients at a nursing home. In May, the Moore County district attorney announces she will seek the death penalty. On September 3, 2011, a jury finds Stewart guilty of second-degree murder. Stewart is sentenced to 141 to 179 years in prison.

8 killed - December 5, 2007 - In Omaha, Nebraska, 19-year-old Robert Hawkins goes to an area mall and kills eight shoppers before killing himself.

8 killed - July 1, 1993 - In San Francisco, 55-year-old Gian Luigi Ferri kills eight people in a law office and then kills himself.

8 killed - September 14, 1989 - In Louisville, Kentucky, 47-year-old Joseph Wesbecker armed with a AK-47 semiautomatic assault rifle, two MAC-11 semiautomatic pistols, a .38 caliber handgun, a 9-millimeter semiautomatic pistol and a bayonet kills eight co-workers at Standard Gravure Corporation and then kills himself. He had been placed on disability leave from his job due to mental problems.

8 killed - August 20, 1982 - In Miami, Carl Robert Brown, 51, kills eight people with a shotgun at a machine shop. Brown, a teacher, was reportedly angry about a repair bill from the shop. After fleeing the scene on a bicycle, he is fatally shot by a witness who pursues him.ed to life in prison without parole.

12 killed - July 29, 1999 - In Atlanta, 44-year-old Mark Barton kills his wife and two children at his home. He then opens fire in two different brokerage houses killing nine people and wounding 12. He later kills himself.

10 killed - March 10, 2009 - In Alabama, Michael McLendon of Kinston, kills 10 and himself. The dead include his mother, grandparents, aunt and uncle.

9 killed - October 1, 2015 - Gunman Christopher Sean Harper-Mercer shoots and kills nine people, injuring another nine, at Umpqua Community College in Roseburg, Oregon. The shooter dies after a gun battle with police at the college. Six weapons were recovered at the school; another seven were recovered at Harper-Mercer's home.

9 killed - June 17, 2015 - Dylann Roof, 21, shoots and kills nine people inside the historic Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, in Charleston, South Carolina. Eight die at the scene; a ninth dies at a hospital. Roof is arrested the following day; according to police, he confesses and tells investigators he wanted to start a race war. Roof is convicted of murder and hate crimes in federal court and a jury recommends the death penalty. He would be the first person executed for committing federal hate crimes.

9 killed - March 21, 2005 - Red Lake High School, Red Lake, Minnesota. Sixteen-year-old Jeff Weise kills his grandfather and another adult, five students, a teacher and a security officer. He then kills himself.

9 killed - August 10, 1991 - Six monks, a nun, a monk in training and a temple worker are found shot to death at Wat Promkunaram, a Buddhist temple in Waddell, Arizona. Johnathan Doody, 17, and Alessandro Garcia, 16, are later convicted of the crime and receive multiple life sentences.

9 killed - June 18, 1990 - In Jacksonville, Florida, 42-year-old James Pough, angry about his car being repossessed, opens fire at a General Motors Acceptance Corp. office, killing nine people. Pough takes his own life.

8 killed - October 12, 2011 - Eight people are killed during a shooting at the Salon Meritage in Seal Beach, California. The suspect, Scott Evans Dekraai, 41, of Huntington Beach, is arrested without incident as he is trying to leave the scene. The eight victims include Dekraai's ex-wife, Michelle Fournier, 48. He was armed with three guns -- a 9 mm Springfield, a Smith & Wesson .44 Magnum, and a Heckler & Koch .45 -- and was wearing body armor during the shooting rampage. After a delay of several years due to allegations of prosecutorial misconduct, Dekraai is sentenced on September 22, 2017, to eight consecutive terms of life in prison without parole, plus an additional term of 232 years to life for attempted murder.

8 killed - August 3, 2010 - Manchester, Connecticut - Omar Thornton kills eight co-workers at Hartford Distributors before turning the gun on himself. Thornton had been asked to resign for stealing and selling alcoholic beverages.

8 killed - January 19, 2010 - Christopher Speight, 39, kills eight people at a house in Appomattox, Virginia. He surrenders to police at the scene the next morning. In February 2013, he is sentenced to five life terms plus 18 years.

8 killed - March 29, 2009 - In Carthage, North Carolina, 45-year-old Robert Stewart kills a nurse and seven elderly patients at a nursing home. In May, the Moore County district attorney announces she will seek the death penalty. On September 3, 2011, a jury finds Stewart guilty of second-degree murder. Stewart is sentenced to 141 to 179 years in prison.

8 killed - December 5, 2007 - In Omaha, Nebraska, 19-year-old Robert Hawkins goes to an area mall and kills eight shoppers before killing himself.

8 killed - July 1, 1993 - In San Francisco, 55-year-old Gian Luigi Ferri kills eight people in a law office and then kills himself.

8 killed - September 14, 1989 - In Louisville, Kentucky, 47-year-old Joseph Wesbecker armed with a AK-47 semiautomatic assault rifle, two MAC-11 semiautomatic pistols, a .38 caliber handgun, a 9-millimeter semiautomatic pistol and a bayonet kills eight co-workers at Standard Gravure Corporation and then kills himself. He had been placed on disability leave from his job due to mental problems.

8 killed - August 20, 1982 - In Miami, Carl Robert Brown, 51, kills eight people with a shotgun at a machine shop. Brown, a teacher, was reportedly angry about a repair bill from the shop. After fleeing the scene on a bicycle, he is fatally shot by a witness who pursues him.

CG
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Old 10-05-2017, 07:15 PM   #73
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Local gun control laws don’t work because of the obvious reason that guns are portable and easily cross jurisdictional lines. That’s why any solution has to be nation wide and involve import restrictions.
so the Federal Government needs to implement the gun laws.. the Federal Government that during Iran-Contra, sold arms to Iran despite a weapons embargo.

got it.
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Old 10-05-2017, 07:30 PM   #74
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To be clear, I am a centrist politicaly!

Just as the right balks at any mention of any kind of gun control.

The left balks at any restrictions on abortion.

There has to be middle ground!

Abortion Surveillance—Findings and Reports. In 2013, 664,435 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC from 49 reporting areas. The abortion rate for 2013 was 12.5 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years, and the abortion ratio was 200 abortions per 1,000 live births.Jan 6, 2017
Abortion | Data and Statistics | Reproductive Health | CDC
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Old 10-05-2017, 08:00 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by TexTushHog View Post
Two small points. Local gun control laws don’t work because of the obvious reason that guns are portable and easily cross jurisdictional lines. That’s why any solution has to be nation wide and involve import restrictions.

As for the Constitution, even with the recent in error reinterpretation of Heller, you could still have some incomplete, but partially effective gun control legislation. Even Scalia’s horrible opinion recognized plenty of ro9m for restrictions on the “right”.

But it’s a moot question. Americans don’t care much about these deaths and nothing even approaching scale of what needs to be done will be done. And half measures will only embolden gun nuts to further claim gun control doesn’t work. It’s not an issue I pay any real attention to these days, just like global climate change. Sadly are too selfish or crazy to even think rationally about the issue.
TTH,

How would you write a law that would really prevent gun crimes? I don't think anyone, err, OK yes, there are some , but most people would not balk against a law that could actually do that. I just can't think of how one would actually work. They all are just hassles for law abiding folk.

I understand what you mean that it would have to be on a national level to be effective. A ban California won't keep a guy from bringing a gun into California from Utah.

Would a ban in all 50 states be different?

Prohibition was an epic failure, no? How would a similar ammendment for guns be different?

My guess is after enjoying a short down tick at the beginning, just like prohibition though, it would quickly ramp back up and rise above pre prohibition numbers.
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