If the Feds Won't Do It...

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

They would be wise to remember...You get what you pay for.

That's a fallacy. Many threads, hobbyists and providers alike have stated there is no correlation between price point and level of service.

[atlcomedy]

http://www.ajc.com/news/cobb/undocum...nt-525038.html

Cliffs Notes version: Georgia College student found to be illegally in States. Sent to a detention center. Her friends and ACLU protest & she has her case deferred for a year (essentially letting her finish school).

This shit just burns me up....we don't need new laws...we just need to enforce the ones we have and send back those that break them.

I'm sure she's a bright gal & would make a positive contribution to our society....& that's why she's a perfect poster child for the ACLU, etc. on this issue, but it is also a good example why you shouldn't make laws based upon annecdotes...

[Ansley]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

http://www.ajc.com/news/cobb/undocum...nt-525038.html

Cliffs Notes version: Georgia College student found to be illegally in States. Sent to a detention center. Her friends and ACLU protest & she has her case deferred for a year (essentially letting her finish school).

I thought I felt somebody reading over my shoulders. I came on here to post the same link.

[Marcus Aurelius]

[CyberProf]

Theodore Roosevelt on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1919

[69er]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

Texas is bouncing it around today...and it is a real problem.

On the plus side of reform -

The hispanics (and let's get serious, folks...that's what we are all talking about down here) do weigh heavily on public services.

There are plenty of studies that show that their contribution to public coffers is well short of their cost.

But on the negative side of reform -

Construction, oil an gas, hotel and restaurant staff, etc. is almost exclusively hispanic.

Such manpower does reduce the cost of the services those industries provide to our citizens. Absent that labor?...the cost of everything would be much higher.

To me... this is the real question. Does illegal labor really reduce the "Total Cost" to me of the services?

For example, if we have an illegal family, and they are mowing my lawn, Then I am saving perhaps $5 a week. Yet they may not be paying taxes, as it is a self run business. They also show up at the local hospital and get free medical care on an emergency basis... of course it's not really free, as it increases the costs the rest of us pay for medical care.

Also consider the unemployment we are paying US citizens, as they cannot obtain employment due to artifically lowered wages due to competition with the illegal aliens.

So, when you factor in the cost of the taxes that many illegals don't pay, and the services they consume, and the services we pay citizens due to unemployment, it may be better for us to pay more upfront for our services by employing US citizens at a higher wage. It is possible that it could still be a net lower cost for us.

Has anyone ever seen a decent example of such a study? I'd be really interested in how this truly works out. My guess is that it might be pretty close. Even if it were a slightly net negative cost, I would be for it, just from the standpoint of supporting my fellow citizens.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Where I live, there are no Hispanics mowing the lawn, in the hotel, or outside of Home Depot. So it's understandable that it's overwhelmingly here that we are against illegal imigrants. We watch the news and see the drug killings, the rapes and shake our head.

[CyberProf]

How about we change out immigration standards to those of Mexico:

To immigrate, you must demonstrate

1) You can support yourself financially
2) You can cover your own healthcare
3) Good physical and mental health
4) you can pass a test (hint - better learn their language)

Oh, and you can not own real estate, or mineral rights . . .

and the list goes on and on . . .

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by 69er

To me... this is the real question. Does illegal labor really reduce the "Total Cost" to me of the services?

For example, if we have an illegal family, and they are mowing my lawn, Then I am saving perhaps $5 a week. Yet they may not be paying taxes, as it is a self run business. They also show up at the local hospital and get free medical care on an emergency basis... of course it's not really free, as it increases the costs the rest of us pay for medical care.

Also consider the unemployment we are paying US citizens, as they cannot obtain employment due to artifically lowered wages due to competition with the illegal aliens.

So, when you factor in the cost of the taxes that many illegals don't pay, and the services they consume, and the services we pay citizens due to unemployment, it may be better for us to pay more upfront for our services by employing US citizens at a higher wage. It is possible that it could still be a net lower cost for us.

Has anyone ever seen a decent example of such a study? I'd be really interested in how this truly works out. My guess is that it might be pretty close. Even if it were a slightly net negative cost, I would be for it, just from the standpoint of supporting my fellow citizens.

First I applaud you for not jumping to a conclusion, by saying you'd be interested in the answer. I'd be interested in the same but would be very skeptical of methodology and would want to examine it very closely before accepting it.

That said, I can say it lowers total cost for people/firms that utilize them heavily. If on the other hand, either out of protest, need or geography (see Marcus' post), those that don't use them are the ones footing the bill.

So then doesn't it follow that, if you accept they are part of the economy (that is here), and your goal is to lower your total personal cost, shouldn't you utilize them every chance you get?

Or conversely, if the goal is to clean them up, cut them off at their points of commerce. As I argued earlier in this thread put real teeth and accountability in place for employers' verifying their workers' legal status.

[TexTushHog]

How the hell do you people come up with the notion that immigrants don't pay taxes? Texas governmental entities fund themselves on two principle sources of taxes -- sales taxes and property taxes. Immigrants pay the same sales taxes and the same property taxes that you do. To the penny.

As far as Federal taxation, they may not pay income tax is they have a cash job, but neither to millions of Americans who have cash jobs. And most make so little, that they would not make enough to be among the 53 percent who would owe income tax in any event. And substantial numbers of undocumented workers who obtain jobs with false documents do in fact pay Social Security taxes and other payroll taxes, but never get any benefits. They also pay Federal fuel taxes, Federal taxes on telephone services, etc.

Do you have any research or any logic that would suggest that immigrants don't pay taxes? The notion makes no sense of any kind.

[TexTushHog]

Indeed, look at theses links:

http://www.truthout.org/undocumented...-benefits59264

http://www.window.state.tx.us/specia...6economic.html

It's amazing the way people will believe any clap trap they hear on right wing talk radio, no matter how nonsensical and counter-intuitive it is.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

How the hell do you people come up with the notion that immigrants don't pay taxes? Texas governmental entities fund themselves on two principle sources of taxes -- sales taxes and property taxes. Immigrants pay the same sales taxes and the same property taxes that you do. To the penny.

.

I thought this thread was about Arizona, which has an income tax....

Amazing how Texas-centric is forum is, even Texas' biggest advocate, Tushy thinks its all about Texas

[Rudyard K]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

How the hell do you people come up with the notion that immigrants don't pay taxes? Texas governmental entities fund themselves on two principle sources of taxes -- sales taxes and property taxes. Immigrants pay the same sales taxes and the same property taxes that you do. To the penny.

As far as Federal taxation, they may not pay income tax is they have a cash job, but neither to millions of Americans who have cash jobs. And most make so little, that they would not make enough to be among the 53 percent who would owe income tax in any event. And substantial numbers of undocumented workers who obtain jobs with false documents do in fact pay Social Security taxes and other payroll taxes, but never get any benefits. They also pay Federal fuel taxes, Federal taxes on telephone services, etc.

Do you have any research or any logic that would suggest that immigrants don't pay taxes? The notion makes no sense of any kind.

Do any of the rest of you get the same feeling that when you listen to TTH, your listening to your wife or ex-wife?

ATL and 69r, you all made the fatal flaw of using one of the words that allow them to deflect from the question, rather than address the conceptual question being asked. You know the words...no, all, always, never, etc. Instead of answering the question which was..."In general, has there been a study that reflects the true cost of illegal aliens, versus the true benefit of them, factoring in reduced expenses for the services they provide, and the societal costs they require society to incur?"...he deflects it down an asswipe non answering road.

I know of no such study guys. It would be interesting to see. My personal belief is that they contribute more than they take...but I don't know. But the main reason I don't think there will ever be much of an answer for this is...Most politicians don't want to piss off the hispanic vote by requiring compliance with immigration laws, but those same politicians also don't want to piss off the labor vote by legalizing a cheap labor force that takes jobs, so that once legalized, we can enforce immigration. So, we just remain here in limboland.

[Sa_artman]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

How the hell do you people come up with the notion that immigrants don't pay taxes? Texas governmental entities fund themselves on two principle sources of taxes -- sales taxes and property taxes. Immigrants pay the same sales taxes and the same property taxes that you do. To the penny.

As far as Federal taxation, they may not pay income tax is they have a cash job, but neither to millions of Americans who have cash jobs. And most make so little, that they would not make enough to be among the 53 percent who would owe income tax in any event. And substantial numbers of undocumented workers who obtain jobs with false documents do in fact pay Social Security taxes and other payroll taxes, but never get any benefits. They also pay Federal fuel taxes, Federal taxes on telephone services, etc.

Do you have any research or any logic that would suggest that immigrants don't pay taxes? The notion makes no sense of any kind.

As I asked before in threads of yesteryear, I challenge any provider that is questioning the tax paying status of migrant workers to produce a 1040 with such income listed. I could bet that if you gather all the money that so called 'patriotic' Americans withhold, it would surpass the amount that illegals supposedly don't contribute. Glass houses.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by Sa_artman

As I asked before in threads of yesteryear, I challenge any provider that is questioning the tax paying status of migrant workers to produce a 1040 with such income listed. I could bet that if you gather all the money that so called 'patriotic' Americans withhold, it would surpass the amount that illegals supposedly don't contribute. Glass houses.

I'll start the popcorn....someone hit the store and pick up the