Edward Snowden. Traitor or Hero?

[starflash]

Not often I line up on W/U's side of issues, but this is one........Traitor!

[Don T. Lukbak]

Originally Posted by pravda

He has stated he doesn't believe he did anything wrong, so why is he hiding in Hong Kong?

"Justice?

You get justice in the next world. In this one you have the law" -

Gaddis

[Dorian Gray]

http://redtape.nbcnews.com/_news/201...-is-legal?lite

[LordBeaverbrook]

Originally Posted by WTF

From what I have read....he did not go through the correct procedure to be considered for the whiste blower act.

Traitor or Hero just depends which side you fall more under. Freedom or Safety.

Legally there are no "whistle blowers" for intelligence agencies. They get a complete exception for all that no matter what the situation. He signed an oath, he is a criminal in the eyes of the law, agency and government. The only thing that might save him is overwhelming public opinion about what he exposed and the conversation he started.

Before writing this, I had mixed feelings about whether he is a hero of traitor and I would have said neither, somewhere in between, but something occurred to me that changed my mind. I did think that on balance what he exposed probably did not harm national security (and ironically may have helped it) and did need to be known to the public. The most disturbing thing about what he exposed is that it shows the intelligence agencies have unilaterally redefined what the Congress allowed them to do in the law in such a way that there was and is absolutely no oversight (the FISA court is pretty much a rubber stamp) at all on the extent of what they collect. Even if Congress has the will to pass or change the laws around this, can it make any difference if agencies can simple redefine it to suit them and keep it secret? That is frightening because it is indeed a slippery slope.

The real concern here is not that these laws are passed for good guys who become president like Obama or Bush (probably not Cheney IMHO) but for when a bad guy who makes Nixon look secure and self-confident somehow gets into office. That is really when we need these protections.

[imabout2]

Damn, so the NSA records my phone conversations. So what! I just hope they have the transcripts of them! With all the phone sex I have I would like to remember what the hell I said sometimes.......damn good reading I bet!

[Old Dingus]

Wakeup is100%, stone cold correct.
Boardman is100%, stone cold correct.
Pravda is100%, stone cold correct.
WTF is not wrong (for once).

Snowden is a traitor and should be tried, convicted and then punished as such.

I was long ago taught that the difference between heroes and terrorists was which side wins.

If Snowden actually has a list with meaningful information, then I believe it has already been copied by enemies who will use it to our peril.

A writer who has done extensive research on Geprge Washington and is about to release a major book stated he believes without any question (and despite Washington's deep concerns for government intrusions) that Snowden would be viewed as a traitor and quickly executed.

Old Dingus

[Don T. Lukbak]

Originally Posted by Old Dingus

Wakeup is100%, stone cold correct.
Boardman is100%, stone cold correct.
Pravda is100%, stone cold correct.
WTF is not wrong (for once).

As far as I know none of the above shmb members is an authority on counter-terrorism. I would trust the NYPD's counter-terrorism task force to keep its flock safe a helluva lot more than I trust all the combined weight of all the U.S. government's various public safety bureaucracies combined; the prime mover of NYPD's inspired bureaucracy...Ray Kelly...has expressed his strong opinion that the NSA's secret program needs sunlight:http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...le-1.1375187If nothing else, Snowden's disclosures have shown Obama's DNI, James Clapper, to be a fucking perjurer. He's one of many government officials who should be prosecuted.http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...per-was-lying/

Well, crap...the dang links to the Ray Kelly story don't work. If your google's broke, here's one of the articles:'NSA should come clean about domestic spying': Ray KellyBy JENNIFER BAINLast Updated: 6:18 PM, June 17, 2013Posted: 4:09 PM, June 17, 2013 Police Commissioner Ray Kelly launched a stinging rebuke to the federal government’s secret phone and Internet monitoring campaign — and suggested leaker Edward Snowden was right about privacy “abuse.”“I don’t think it ever should have been made secret,” Kelly said today, breaking ranks with US law-enforcement officials.His blast came days after the Obama administration and Attorney General Eric Holder outraged New York officials by endorsing a federal monitor for the NYPD.Kelly appeared to firmly reject Holder’s claim that disclosure of the monitoring campaign seriously damaged efforts to fight terrorism. William Miller Ray Kelly“I think the American public can accept the fact if you tell them that every time you pick up the phone it’s going to be recorded and it goes to the government,” Kelly said. “I think the public can understand that. I see no reason why that program was placed in the secret category.”“Secondly, I think if you listen to Snowden, he indicates that there’s some sort of malfeasance, people . . . sitting around and watching the data. So I think the question is: What sort of oversight is there inside the [National Security Agency] NSA to prevent that abuse, if it’s taking place?”Kelly has been on the receiving side of this kind of criticism.The NYPD secretly spied on Muslim organizations, infiltrated Muslim student group and videotaped mosque-goers in New Jersey for years, it was revealed in 2012. The NYPD said its actions were lawful and necessary to keep the city safe.After the vast federal phone-Internet monitoring program was revealed, President Obama said he had struck the right balance between ensuring security and protecting privacy. But yesterday, Kelly indicated Obama was wrong.“I think we can raise people’s comfort level if in fact information comes out as to that we have these controls and these protections inside the NSA,” he said.Allies of Kelly viewed his criticism as payback for Holder’s decision to recommend — at the 11th hour of a controversial court case — that a federal monitor oversee the NYPD’s stop-and-frisk program.“Everything that Ray Kelly does has a purpose,” said City Council Public Safety Chairman Peter Vallone Jr. (D-Queens). “If Eric Holder wants to lecture Police Commissioner Kelly on how to fight crime in New York, then one of the world’s foremost experts on public safety [Kelly] can lecture Holder on how to fight terrorism.”Holder and other law-enforcement officials have trashed Snowden and his claim about out-of-control government snooping. Kelly said of the leaker:“He tried to give the impression, it seems to me, that these system administrators had carte blanche to do what they wanted to do,” he said. “I think it’s a problem if that’s in fact what’s happening.”

[Wakeup]

Originally Posted by Don T. Lukbak

As far as I know...

Uh huh...

And you know what's hilarious about this? That 49%...they'll cry about the injustice in the world for a month, and then go right back to doing two things...jack and shit...

[ackvt]

It's funny. The Republican's are tagged with the reputation of being the spy's, the fun police, the ones who want to restrict lives (gay marriage and abortions) and interfere. BUT in the experience of our history, starting with the current administration, the Democrats have done way more to invade our privacy, hide scandals, deceive the public. But they get away with it because they're the ones giving all the benefits away and making it such that people don't have to work and provide for themselves. "OK Barak, I don't mind a honky AMBASSADOR was killed/sacraficed for Islam as long as I get more food stamps and you keep taxing the rich." I hope the WHOLE country wakes the fuck up (no that's not a call out to WU) and realizes we are on a similar path that took the Romans to extinction. We're Rome. The Islam extremists are the Barbarians. The Barbarians won. History CAN repeat itself, if we let it.

[BatteriesNotIncluded]

Originally Posted by Old Dingus

I was long ago taught that the difference between heroes and terrorists was which side wins.

If Snowden actually has a list with meaningful information, then I believe it has already been copied by enemies who will use it to our peril.

Quite true. Patrick Henry and Geirge Washinton would be terrorists had we not won. So, once the Chinese population and economic recovery destroy America Mr Snowden can be considered a hero. Until then... Traitor in my eyes.

[zme]

I voted "not sure" too because I think this story still have to play itself out. But (to repeat many others) at least the strictly legal side of this sage is crystal clear. The NSA broke no laws, they have the authority to do everything that has been revealed - up to this point. By extension Snowden is not a whistleblower because if the NSA broke no laws there was nothing to whistleblow about. Also Snowden clearly broke the law by violating the terms of his security clearance.
The only valid point that Snowden and his supporters can make is that even though the letter of the law was not broken the spirit of it may have been broken. Because through two administrations politicians have repeatedly reassured the nation that there was no mass data collection going on that would sweep up data on Americans who were not associated with criminal/terrorist activity. Maybe they can use weasel words to try and convince us that was not exactly what they said but the government clearly tried to push that message. I know it is not exactly earth-shattering to find politicians lying but I suppose this is be basis of the public outrage. Coupled with the fact that plenty of people don't realize it is legal for the NSA to do this.
The reason I don't readily accept Snowdens angelic self-justification either is because he would choose to flee to Chinese territory. If he is bothered by government intrusion into the life of the general public he may not have picked the best place. If he considered himself to be a patriotic citizen protecting his countrymen from an overreaching government he could pick a place (like Iceland) that is friendly to the west but still will not extradite him to the US. So it certainly makes one question just how sincere his lofty claims of morality are. Now that he is in Chinese territory is he also complaining about the Chinese spying on their own people which is several orders of magnitude more severe? Or is he looking for a payoff from Chinese intelligence?

I am not thrilled about the NSA collecting this much data without *every* member of congress being part of the decision. But that is separate from my opinion of Snowden. He is a very flawed prophet of morality.

And I can't help think he is grandstanding by saying he could tap Obamas phone line or email anytime he felt like it. I will change my mind if I see evidence but the more he says the less credible he sounds to me. I think his initial claims were true but now he seems to be inflating just to get more attention. That might give him a higher payoff from Chinese intelligence I suppose.

[BatteriesNotIncluded]

Right? Flee to China?? What happened to Sweden or Switzerland? Shoot, at least some 3rd world country...

[Dorian Gray]

Not taking sides, but who would you rather have with access to your text/calls:
Uncle Sam or some kid fresh out of college looking up Bieber for shits & giggles

[BatteriesNotIncluded]

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray

Not taking sides, but who would you rather have with access to your text/calls:
Uncle Sam or some kid fresh out of college looking up Bieber for shits & giggles

You do realize who the computer geeks are that NSA employees?

[BatteriesNotIncluded]

And off to Russia. Possible Venezuela via Cuba. If I were his traitorous ass I'd stay in Russia. Programs against the populace needed to be exposed. But not by this yellow bellied turncoat.