Tarrifs (Open at your white nationalist heart's risk)

[Tiny]

Yeah eccielover, I did read the article and did notice the discrepancy between the title and the content. The writer said that soybean farmers weren’t hurting because of Chinese tariffs on American soybeans per se. It’s because China is going to do it everything it can to fuck American soybean farmers until Trump does something about USA tariffs on Chinese goods. That includes increasing Chinese domestic production of soybeans. The president of the soybean association is begging to be able to sell to China again. I stand by what I wrote, American soybean farmers are hurting from tariffs (Trump’s tariffs) which are partially offset by government support

[andymarksman]

Originally Posted by kehaar

Soybean farmers are not hurting because of tariffs. The amount of soybeans on the market is the same. The demand for soybeans is the same. The only difference is where those soybeans end up.

Those soybeans will end up in some "shithole" countries in Africa "free of charge," according to Trump. What a wonderful humanitarian gesture!

[rexdutchman]

[kehaar]

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

Last year I was in the market for a new clothes washer. After about 15 years, my LG washer broke down. I would have preferred another LG washer but since LG washers are made in China and Trump imposed a tariff on them, I had the choice of purchasing an LG for considerably more money than those made by competitors or purchasing a washer made by a company which I thought to be of lower quality.

People buying soybeans have a similar decision to make, although quality probably does not come into play -- purchase a higher priced product from the U.S. or save money and buy the same product for less money from a different country.

How is this "propaganda" or "biased"?

So you had to pay 10% more for an LG washing machine that was made in a factory that likely stole much of its contained IP. Are you saying that is unjust? I'd say you got a bargain, and the IP fee ought to be much higher(something like 50% would do nicely).

Why would Europeans pay less for American soybeans than Brazilian soybeans? They can't buy them from Brazil, because those beans are being bought by China(for a higher than market price, fucking the Chinese consumer). I do not understand your logic.

[Redhot1960]

0beymemes should only buy products where soy bean oil is the first ingredient on the content list. Thank You.

[kehaar]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Here are the first 3 articles I get when I google "Soybeans Tariffs." They all show soybean farmers are hurting because of tariffs.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/10/u...s-farmers.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapo.../#6cb59a3f71f9

https://www.chicagotribune.com/busin...410-story.html




You're correct that my export numbers are only for direct exports to China. I suspect the numbers quoted by the press, 550 billion, would include Chinese content in exports from other countries to the USA.

You'll also be 100% justified in saying I suffer from TDS if Trump does end up negotiating an agreement with China and then drops the tariffs before they really start to fuck things up. That could happen. It would have been so much easier and less dangerous though if he'd hooked up with the Europeans, Canada and Australia and put pressure on China to do the things they should, like protecting intellectual property and improving access and treatment of foreign companies. My hunch is he's really going to muck things up with tariffs, and basically give back all the benefits he and the Republicans created with the tax cuts. And this is going to bite around the time of the 2020 elections.

Since the fall of the Soviet Union, when has "hooking up" with the Continental Europeans ever been in the U.S.'s interest. Please cite an example. The Continental Europeans are fascists, and only do what they feel is in their "best" interest, which in their mind means fucking the US, and diminishing our influence. All of their decision are made with that objective in their mind. They hate us, and our system of government. Frankly, their governing system has more in common with the Chinese than the U.S. Given that, why should they want to help us contain China.

Europeans have no foresight. Stalin's quote "they will sell us the rope by which we hang them" has its origins in European culture, and is accurate.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by kehaar

So you had to pay 10% more for an LG washing machine that was made in a factory that likely stole much of its contained IP. Are you saying that is unjust? I'd say you got a bargain, and the IP fee ought to be much higher(something like 50% would do nicely).

Why would Europeans pay less for American soybeans than Brazilian soybeans? They can't buy them from Brazil, because those beans are being bought by China(for a higher than market price, fucking the Chinese consumer). I do not understand your logic.

The Chinese are going to do whatever they can to fuck the soybean farmer, because they want to hurt Trump in red states. They are, for example, increasing domestic soybean production. Otherwise, your reasoning makes sense. The only thing I can think of that you might have missed are transportation costs. It may be a lot cheaper to ship Brazilian soybeans to Europe and American soybeans to China. Now you've got more Brazilian beans going to China and more American soybeans going to Europe. This is what happens in a trade war, everyone loses, the Chinese consumers and the producers in the USA and Brazil.

As to washing machines, I'd suspect there wasn't a lot of intellectual property to steal. The washing machine thing though is increasing jobs in America, which we desperately need with a 3.6% unemployment rate:

U.S.-based manufacturers added about 1,800 jobs in response to the tariffs, researchers found. But at a total cost to consumers of about $1.5 billion, that works out to approximately $815,000 for every new job created. That figure is roughly in line with other estimates on the per-job cost of tariffs in other industries. But those numbers are much higher than the typical cost of government-driven job creation, which works out to about $30,000 per job.

You'll probably want to take that with a huge grain of salt though since it's from the MSM, the Washington Post.

[kehaar]

The total cost to consumers of sales taxes is likely measured in the trillions. Should we eliminate them? The tariffs are really just an IP tax. In a non-Bizarro world, the money sent to the Treasury would just have to be collected some other way without the tariff.

I'd suggest you look up the manufacturing evolution in China. The story is always the same, and it is always wholesale theft of mostly American IP(mainly trade secrets). There is a reason some Chinese companies make high quality stuff, and others don't. That reason has little to do with Chinese innovation. It has everything to do with American manufacturing know-how.

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by kehaar

Since the fall of the Soviet Union, when has "hooking up" with the Continental Europeans ever been in the U.S.'s interest. Please cite an example. The Continental Europeans are fascists, and only do what they feel is in their "best" interest, which in their mind means fucking the US, and diminishing our influence. All of their decisions are made with that objective in their mind. They hate us, and our system of government. Frankly, their governing system has more in common with the Chinese than the U.S. Given that, why should they want to help us contain China.

Europeans have no foresight. Stalin's quote "they will sell us the rope by which we hang them" has its origins in European culture, and is accurate.

^^^ This is way over the top. After 9/11, our NATO partners sent thousands of troops to Afghanistan to help rout the taliban. They let us set up CIA "black sites" in places like Poland and Romania where we could waterboard al-queda cockroaches for information that saved American lives. They shared intelligence on terrorists with us. Those are just a few examples. There are many, many more. They are much more democratic than they are fascist. They got rid of fascism in 1945, thanks to us. They got rid of communism in 1989, again thanks to us. Name one fascist government in Europe. You can't because there are none. Do you even pay attention to their politics and elections? A democratic Europe is very much in our national interest. Would you feel more secure if Europe reverted to fascism and/or communism?

There are 44 countries in Europe. They each speak a different language. They each have a different history and culture. If you think it is stupid for them to make sweeping, ignorant generalizations about Americans, it's even dumber for you to do the same about them.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by kehaar

The tariffs are really just an IP tax.

If you were to levy tariffs in a logical way on Chinese products for which they stole the IP, that could make a lot of sense.

[kehaar]

Originally Posted by lustylad

^^^ This is way over the top. After 9/11, our NATO partners sent thousands of troops to Afghanistan to help rout the taliban. They let us set up CIA "black sites" in places like Poland and Romania where we could waterboard al-queda cockroaches for information that saved American lives. They shared intelligence on terrorists with us. Those are just a few examples. There are many, many more. They are much more democratic than they are fascist. They got rid of fascism in 1945, thanks to us. They got rid of communism in 1989, again thanks to us. Name one fascist government in Europe. You can't because there are none. Do you even pay attention to their politics and elections? A democratic Europe is very much in our national interest. Would you feel more secure if Europe reverted to fascism and/or communism?

There are 44 countries in Europe. They each speak a different language. They each have a different history and culture. If you think it is stupid for them to make sweeping, ignorant generalizations about Americans, it's even dumber for you to do the same about them.

You cite Poland and Romania as your examples. This is interesting, and they are the outcasts of Europe. They help us because they are scared shitless of both the Eurofascists, and the Russians. They have a good reason, can read history books, and have some foresight. They are effectively useless as a strategic partner in dealing with China.

The Continental Europeans were essentially a liability in actions you list. Their demands, constrictions, and intents made those situations worse in all cases. My discussions with US personnel have indicated that their presence was always a liability.

There is a reason our intelligence community has a 5 eyes policy. It is not because the Continental Europeans are "helpful".

Democracy is but one of the foundations of a civilized society. Pre-Hitler Germany was a democracy. The Soviet Union was democracy. In fact, European society is centrally run by elites, and has but limited relationship to our democracy.

If you talk to almost any Continental European, there is an overarching contempt for all things American. The reason they loved Obama was that they had a kindred spirit is such thoughts.

[kehaar]

The only reason Europeans assist us in stopping terrorist attacks is that it is bad for their economy when such things happen, that we have much better intelligence, and they get more from the "sharing" than we do.

I am not so sure they would stop an attack on the US if that action left them vulnerable.

Chirac's statement on support for US actions after 9/11 illustrate that point.

[oeb11]

Please reproduce that statement, K
Thank you

[kehaar]

Originally Posted by oeb11

Please reproduce that statement, K
Thank you

It would take me as long to look it up as you. I'd suggest finding it on youtube. I don't care if you believe me or not. I do care about the truth.

Another example was Schroeder's statement on the limitation of what the German's would do to stop Iran from getting Nuclear weapons. It is interesting. It was in the same time period(about 2002).

A third example is their threat to Turkey in the run up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq. That threat only makes sense in terms of "We hate the Americans", and the consequence of that threat turned out to be catastrophic to the Americans.

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by kehaar

You cite Poland and Romania as your examples. This is interesting, and they are the outcasts of Europe. They help us because they are scared shitless of both the Eurofascists, and the Russians.

Poland an "outcast of Europe"? Where do you come up with this shit? World War II started over Poland. Romanian oil fueled Hitler's invasion of Russia. I don't care why they help us, as long as they do. We pursue our national interest and they pursue theirs. The next time you are in Chicago, ask the Polish-Americans if they view their native land as an "outcast of Europe".

Originally Posted by kehaar

The Continental Europeans were essentially a liability in actions you list. Their demands, constrictions, and intents made those situations worse in all cases. My discussions with US personnel have indicated that their presence was always a liability.

Nobody uses terms like the "Continental Europeans". Are you carving out the UK and Ireland? You might have more credibility if you criticized the specific behavior of specific countries, instead of making sweeping, ignorant generalizations.

Over 50 nations contributed to Operation Enduring Freedom in 2001-03. And you want to tell me they were ALL a liability? You want to tell me NONE of them were helpful in any way to that operation's success? You're nuts. Every company of troops sent to Afghanistan by our partners reduced the burden on our own forces. If they had stayed home and refused to join in, you would have been the first guy to complain and say - "See, those 'Continental Europeans' are worthless!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partic...during_Freedom

Originally Posted by kehaar

Democracy is but one of the foundations of a civilized society. Pre-Hitler Germany was a democracy. The Soviet Union was democracy. In fact, European society is centrally run by elites, and has but limited relationship to our democracy.

Germany learned from the failures of the Weimar Republic. West Germany has had a very successful democracy since 1949. They extended this success to East Germany when the Berlin Wall came down. The Soviet Union was NEVER a democracy. It was a "dictatorship of the proletariat" as Karl Marx would say. Every society has elites. And democracies come in more than one flavor. The UK is a parliamentary democracy. They can call a parliamentary vote of confidence and hold snap elections at any time.

You called Europe fascist - and yet, you still can't name a single country in Europe with a fascist government. You would be wise to think before you stick your foot in your mouth again.