Volt

[lacrew_2000]

"A dumbed-down way to think about is that you get 30-something MPG and then get a bonus 30 miles of electric power."

Yes, the dumber the better. I like dumb. I'm not smart enough to defy physics. Lets try to put this in real dumb terms:

I want to drive 100 miles.

In a Prius, which gets 51 mpg, at $3.65 a gallon, I've spent $7.15

In a Volt, which gets 30 mpg, and 30 miles on 14.5 kwh of electric power at $0.12 per kwh. I spend $1.74 on electricity and $8.51 on gas, for a total of $10.25.

What's the break over?

(x/51)(3.65) = 1.74 + ((x-30)/30))(3.65)

x = 38.12 miles.

If you plan on driving more than 38.12 miles a day, you actually get better fuel economy with a Prius. Simple.

[catnipdipper]

Too long in the Academy!

Sometimes you go with your gut(marketing) and just charge(buy).


In my life I never once got the answer to the train leaving Chicago and the other one leaving Cleveland and where they met up.

[lacrew_2000]

"In my life I never once got the answer to the train leaving Chicago and the other one leaving Cleveland and where they met up."

The answer is usually 42.

[catnipdipper]

I just inked 42 on my Palm.

[CuteOldGuy]

And don't forget your towel.

[Longermonger]

Originally Posted by catnipdipper

In my life I never once got the answer to the train leaving Chicago and the other one leaving Cleveland and where they met up.

They meet up wherever the train dispatcher wants them to meet up. Trains have dispatchers just like airplanes.

[Longermonger]

Originally Posted by lacrew_2000

"A dumbed-down way to think about is that you get 30-something MPG and then get a bonus 30 miles of electric power."

Yes, the dumber the better. I like dumb. I'm not smart enough to defy physics. Lets try to put this in real dumb terms:

I want to drive 100 miles.

In a Prius, which gets 51 mpgCity, newest model only...and not according to PriusChat. YMMV, at $3.65 a gallon, I've spent $7.15Probably more.

In a Volt, which gets 30 mpg37 EPA, most others tested similar or higher, up to 40., and 30 miles 47 according to Edmunds. on 14.5 kwh of electric power at $0.12 per kwh.Where? What time of day? I spend $1.74 on electricity and $8.51 on gas, for a total of $10.25.Probably much less.

What's the break over?

(x/51)(3.65) = 1.74 + ((x-30)/30))(3.65)

x = 38.12 miles.Gee, that's amazing! You used the EPA numbers for the Prius and discarded them for the Volt so you could cherry pick the lowest Consumer Reports numbers. I challenge you to recalculate your formula using EPA numbers for both cars. Using winter test numbers for a hybrid car that are obvious outliers is a dirty way to prove your point.

If you plan on driving more than 38.12 miles a day, you actually get better fuel economy with a Prius. Simple. You cede that anything under that number and the Volt wins. I'd make the case that 38.12 miles is a lowball number. Additionally, Prius owners have shown that the Prius' own mileage indicator displays a highball number. (about 5% high)

At this point I'd ask you to take a look at Prius sales figures. Wikipedia has a great chart for this on their Prius page. Notice how the Prius got off to a slow start and took many years and three generations to get up to the sales numbers that it enjoys today.

[lacrew_2000]

I guess I could Cherry Pick.

I could use the worst range CR got, 23 miles, dropping the break over from 38 miles to 21.

Or I could use the true 16 cent per kwh cost of energy, dropping the break over from 38 to 27 miles.

Or I could use the 33 cent per kwh that Edmunds paid in southern California, which drops the breakover from 38 to -24 miles...that's right, it would always cost more to operate than the Prius in southern CA.

Or I could use the cost of gas on Jan 20, 2009 ($1.79), bringing the break even down from 38 to 3 miles.

Or I could use the actual 16 kwh it consumes to get a 14.5 kwh charge, dropping the breakover from 38 to 35 miles.

...of course cherry picking like that would be silly (almost as silly as questioning the temperature at which a road test is conducted...but not quite). But as long as we're cherry picking, lets combine all of the cherry picked data at once - reduces the breakover from 38 to -159 miles.

I think I've given the Volt the benefit of the doubt at every turn..

Now, I have neglected higher per day insurance and property tax costs (due to the VOLT costing twice as much as a Prius, but thats just another instance of giving the VOLT the benefit of the doubt).

Of course this is only the break even on operating costs...there's still the matter of the extra 10k that gets shelled out on the VOLT on the front end....and the charging station

I've looked at this turkey from every angle...its a loser. I'm a little disappointed that I get to help pay for this boondoggle; but, heck, its always gonna be something. I think its safe to say that the Volt won't be a HOT ITEM later this year...time will tell.

[catnipdipper]

The answer is .............................. .....42!

[Longermonger]

Originally Posted by lacrew_2000

I think I've given the Volt the benefit of the doubt...

Readers can check the chart on Wikipedia and decide for themselves. You cherry picked to get the results that you wanted. Cold weather makes a big difference on battery performance. EPA tests are more controlled.

But EPA tests aren't exactly the same. I think the Prius is considered a hybrid and the Volt is considered an electric vehicle. Different tests.

I think...not sure...that EPA tests for hybrids require the battery to be fully charged at the end of the test. That's one of the complaints of Prius owners, IIRC. "If tested with the same EPA tests used by other hybrids, the Volt's EPA fuel economy rating would be around 48 mpg due to the current EPA test for hybrids disallowing vehicles from boosting their mpg rating using stored battery power." Crazy, huh? What's even more crazy is if you test a Volt with a dead battery and have the gas motor charge it to FULL during the mileage test.

Your results only show that the Volt is the best production hybrid car in the world in some driving scenarios and the second best production hybrid in the world in others. Correction: That should read "ever made in the history of mankind" after "in the world".

[lacrew_2000]

When I started this thread, I made the statement:

Some people may not intuitively know how bad an idea the Volt is.

And this certainly has become very clear. If you drive the Volt for any distance, you will not return with a charged battery - ever. Any rumors to the contrary are just that - rumors.

The 83 hp gasoline motor cannot simultaneously power a 4000 lb car, using the 170 hp electric motor, and replenish battery capacity. GM calls this charge sustaining mode...they make absolutely no claim that the battery will get recharged in this mode....barring a trip down the rocky mountains, this would violate the law of conservation of energy.

As a matter of fact...GM has been vary evasive on this query:

After the car has expended its electric and gas range, can you simply add gas and keep going?

I don't know the answer; but it seems logical that the 83 hp engine, with losses, powering a car which usually takes 170 hp, can only 'sustain' the batteries for so long...and the 300 mile range may be limited by need for recharge. GM has been asked this, and not given a straight answer....but the bottom line is that an 83 hp engine will have a very tough time going solo to power the car, when all battery power is gone...its over 45 lb per hp...remember the 3 cylinder GEO Metro? It had a little over 30 lb/hp. I think GM has a little ticking time bomb on their hands, once some proud Volt owner figures out this problem.

But trust me, nobody at the EPA expects this thing to return to home base with a full charge. Intuitively, I know this to be true...and GM has verified it on their website with some bs line that they want you to return with an empty charge, since power from the grid is cheaper than using gas to recharge the batteries. Its poor gasoline mileage has nothing to do with the battery...and everything to do with its weight (30% more than a Prius for example).

[lacrew_2000]

I've done some back of the envelope calcs to determine whether or not the Volt can actually strand you, after the initial charge is gone.

Without accounting for the power required to get up to speed, or losses in the drive train, the Volt's gas engine can keep the car moving anywhere from flat to 6%. Anything steeper than that, and the last 30% reserve of the battery is going to go fast....REAL fast.

It won't necessarily strand you however...if you were climbing a 7.5% grade, you could get back into the capabilities of the gas motor by dialing it down to 52 mph....so plan on getting alot of angry looks...or stay out of the mountains.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by catnipdipper

I want to make it clear and I want to go oh public record that I have supported;

1. The Vega
2. The Corvair
3. The Citation

All major and dramatic innovations from GM



Once Motor Trend made it Car of the Year I knew it was a winner.

My first car was a Vega. Had it pimped out broke high school student style. Silver fur seat covers, air shocks, big-n-littles BFG Radial TAs, front spoiler, header, 3" exhaust, glasspack, fire engine red, oh yea! I was stylin!

[Longermonger]

Originally Posted by lacrew_2000

And this certainly has become very clear. If you drive the Volt for any distance, you will not return with a charged battery - ever. Any rumors to the contrary are just that - rumors.

The 83 hp gasoline motor cannot simultaneously power a 4000 lb car, using the 170 hp electric motor, and replenish battery capacity. GM calls this charge sustaining mode...they make absolutely no claim that the battery will get recharged in this mode....barring a trip down the rocky mountains, this would violate the law of conservation of energy.

Wow. You still don't get it.

That 83hp ICE can be at WOT all the time if Chevy wants to program the Volt to run that way. That means that it can remain at WOT as you stop at a red light, wait, get back up to speed, let off the throttle to match traffic, punch it to pass a car, hit the brakes because a car pulled out in front of you, etc. That generator can be doing whatever it needs to do to charge the battery pack regardless of what you're doing to drive the car. The most likely scenario is that the generator runs at a fixed RPM and load to charge the battery and then shuts off for a while to cool. This ON-OFF-ON-OFF-ON pulsing allows it to charge at a high rate and always be in the perfect "sweet spot" for efficiency.

A Volt driver would have to exceed an 83hp AVERAGE to not allow the car to charge itself on the fly. I doubt that it even takes the Volt 30hp to go 100MPH on level ground. It might be able to climb a steep grade at high speed...but not for long, because even mountain roads have to stop going up eventually. And then those mountain roads go downhill. The Volt loves going downhill. It gets a lot that energy back. Non-hybrid/non-electric cars DON'T.

My guess is that any load requirement less than an extended top speed run would allow the generator to top off the battery (if the car was being operated in that mode).

P.S. If you can find an unprotected outlet at work, you might be able to charge your car for free all day long. Something to think about...

[lacrew_2000]

"Wow. You still don't get it"

Nope...and neither does GM...which is why they created 'Mountain Mode'

Why does the Volt have this mode?

First lets look at the gas engine, which is less powerful than a Festiva....and compare it to the Volt's weight, which is heavier than a Crown Victoria. Without help from an electric motor, the gas engine would give you the performance of a riding lawn mower.

So, they created the buffer in the battery. You want to accelerate, pass, go up an on-ramp, go on a sustained grade, turn on the wipers...you'll dip into the buffer. And GM figures that statistically you'll hit enough downhills and brake at enough stoplights to keep the buffer (30% charge) sustained....under 'normal driving conditions'.

What about 'not normal' driving conditions - Loveland Pass, Dallas during rush hour, alot of merging, ramps, passing, etc? This will deplete the buffer much faster than the gas engine can replenish it. So, they came up with 'Mountain Mode' (I guess the guys who designed the car 'just don't get it' ). Essentially you change the time and place for poor driving performance. You have to anticipate that you will encounter tough conditions, and switch the mode on around 20 minutes prior (just one of the awesome things which I'm sure will make consumers fall in love with the car). Now your ability to accelerate or climb grades is severely diminished...you're in 'granny mode'...but it allows the battery charge to increase from 30% to 50%. Now, you have an extra reserve to make it through the pass....their estimation is it will give you 14 miles normal driving, and less tough driving, before depleting back down to 30%.

Why doesn't GM 'get it' and assume that the ICE can magically recharge the battery all the time? They know what I know - the Illuminati closed down the magic fairy dust mines in the '80's. There are losses in converting mechanical energy to electrical energy, storing said electrical energy in a battery as potential energy, retrieving said potential energy as kinetic electrical energy, and converting said electrical energy to mechanical energy. How much? I can't calculate it...but GM has. At 70 mph, the gas engine starts to directly drive the wheels to some extent....so this is their breakover. Does it take less than 83 hp to keep a car going 100 mph? You bet. Does it take less than 83 hp to convert mechanical to electrical to potential to kinetic to mechanical and sustain 100 mph...no!

So back to the initial subject of the poor gas mileage of the vehicle. I still confidently guarantee that the poor gas mileage was NOT because anybody was attempting to charge the battery, as previously alleged. The car is not even programmed to do that...and if it were, you would either need to coast down Mt Everest, or do a 30 mph loop around the Utah Salt flats for around 90 minutes. Neither Edmunds or Consumer reports mentioned calling in GM for the reprogramming, or the trip up the north face, so I assume they got their lousy mileage...well, just driving the vehicle like normal.

For those who have made it this far, we have almost touched on the real difference between the Volt and the Prius.

Prius - Gas engine capable of powering the car in all conditions. Small battery to recapture some of the lost energy during driving, used to supplement the engine.

Volt - Large battery and electric motor, capable of powering the car in all conditions. Small engine used to recharge the battery....under some conditions.

Which system works better? The Prius. The jean creamer for the Volt evangalists has been the plug in range and electric drive. Well, Prius will plug in next year...and the manic Voltecs will scream "You see, Volt is better"...but they won't understand (err...'get it'). Prius will still have the big engine/small battery concept...they will just squeeze out a few miles from the initial charge, using their small battery...knowing that to reverse the setup to that of the Volt's is not nearly as efficient.

Even advancements in battery technology won't make the Volt the better system..because the Prius would benefit equally from that improvement. In order for the car to drive normally, you always (really...all the time, always) have to have enough power to well, drive normally. The only (really, I'm sure) way to always have enough power is carry on-board fuel for the primary powerplant. This could be natural gas, diesel, gasoline, hydrogen...or even a battery. However, all of these fuels need to be re-filled.....easy to do...except for the battery. This is why the 'normal' driving experience for a Volt is limited to its plug in range. After that, its really not a normal, everyday driving experience. It never will be...it never can be.....unless the gas engine has a hp rating much higher than the rated max output of the electric motor.

Physics....catch it!