Indian land claim paradox

[Jackie S]

Let's not forget that benevolent bunch down South called The Aztecs.

[The_Waco_Kid]

Originally Posted by i'va biggen

LMAO you don't know anymore about first nation than you do about FIFY.

who gives a fuck about first nation? did you really mean first nations? chimp?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nations

Originally Posted by Old-T

At least you now admit you are a stupid bigoted asshole. Some people might have mistaken you for a semi-intelligent bigoted asshole.

oldturd, stick your head up your ass and take a deep whiff. that will remind you of what your posts smell like.


You probably think it was the Jews fault that they didn't fight harder. And any moment you will post that the unborn should fight harder against the abortionist.

I'm pro-sex and pro-choice. the law of the land says that if a woman wants to get an abortion within the 2 trimester limit, they can. what would you do oldturd? make them breeding stock for rapists?

Somehow the indigenous people in the americas managed to survive for millenia without exterminating up to 95% of their populations. That took some outside "help".

before or after they had tribal wars? i suppose that's the evil "white man's fault" too?

Originally Posted by Jackie S

Why? You can build a Casino anywhere.

damn right! they have their revenue stream. let them send out their welfare checks so they can buy firewater.

Originally Posted by Jackie S

And they fought wars among each other, enslaved each other, and stole territory from each other.

The idea of "the Noble Red Man" is a myth created by a segment of society that was ignorant of the facts, and by Hollywood.

The Native Americans were were plagued by the same dark side of their human nature as the White Europeans who showed up and conguered them.

exactly right. all races have their dark side. some of them just want to blame some other race for it.

Originally Posted by i'va biggen

Bottom line is. If you ain't white fuck you!!!

so fuck you!

chimp.

[Old-T]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

The story about Amherst and the infected blankets has not held up to historical scrutiny. The timeline has been proven demonstrably wrong, and the two individuals who purportedly received the blankets did not contract smallpox and die. And both parties were guilty of "treaty violations". The Great Sioux Uprising of 1862 was the consequence of a blatant act of red on white murder.

Blankets or no blankets, there is ample data that a massive fraction of native americans were killed by "european" diseases. A minor point you "forgot" I am sure. But since it wasn't blankets, it was OK, right?

Originally Posted by WombRaider

Who has ever said the Indians weren't subject to human nature? And because they acted like everyone else, they deserved to have their land taken from them? You are making excuses for the white man.

But in IB's world, they are expendable. And just as he demonizes every northerner for the sins of some, he condemns all native americans for the sins of some--while glorifying and absolving southern plantation owners and secessionist traitors.

No one ever claimed IB was fair mined. Or sane.

Originally Posted by Old-T

That is true, but not the complete story. Look at what has been done to reintroduce free roaming bison beards in the great planes, undoing what excessive cattle braising has done. That is the largest scale but hardly the only example. It parallels a lot of work done by indigenous agrarians in southern Africa. Much of what has been changed can be unchanged.

But it is certainly not your place to tell them that they should quit caring about the lands that were stolen from them.

Originally Posted by Mr MojoRisin

I am not saying they should stop caring. I am just saying they wouldn't want it back because the land doesn't represent them as it once did.

Jim

You totally missed my point: because they have demonstrated that in many cases they CAN undo what was done, YES, they do want it back. At least certain parts of it. Places can have deep cultural and religious meaning even if "foreigners" have damaged them. The spirits of the peoples ancestors still abide there, the land still has historical and cultural meaning, and in many cases it can be readapted to provide an historic way of life--at least in some measure. Again I recommend reading about the "Re-buffaloizing" of areas in the Dakotas.

[The_Waco_Kid]

Originally Posted by Old-T

But in IB's world, they are expendable. And just as he demonizes every northerner for the sins of some, he condemns all native americans for the sins of some--while glorifying and absolving southern plantation owners and secessionist traitors.

No one ever claimed IB was fair mined. Or sane.





You totally missed my point: because they have demonstrated that in many cases they CAN undo what was done, YES, they do want it back. At least certain parts of it. Places can have deep cultural and religious meaning even if "foreigners" have damaged them. The spirits of the peoples ancestors still abide there, the land still has historical and cultural meaning, and in many cases it can be readapted to provide an historic way of life--at least in some measure. Again I recommend reading about the "Re-buffaloizing" of areas in the Dakotas.

who as one of the largest private landowners in America has helped increase the buffalo population? why, a white guy named Ted Turner. a capitalist also. and what does he serve at his restaurants? buffalo streak! yum! i like mine medium well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Turner

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted's_Montana_Grill

[i'va biggen]

Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

who gives a fuck about first nation? did you really mean first nations? chimp?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nations





before or after they had tribal wars? i suppose that's the evil "white man's fault" too?



damn right! they have their revenue stream. let them send out their welfare checks so they can buy firewater.



exactly right. all races have their dark side. some of them just want to blame some other race for it.



[B]so fuck you!
]

Did you say something chimp chump? No I didn't think so.

[CuteOldGuy]

Originally Posted by Old-T

But in IB's world, they are expendable. And just as he demonizes every northerner for the sins of some, he condemns all native americans for the sins of some--while glorifying and absolving southern plantation owners and secessionist traitors.

No one ever claimed IB was fair mined. Or sane.





You totally missed my point: because they have demonstrated that in many cases they CAN undo what was done, YES, they do want it back. At least certain parts of it. Places can have deep cultural and religious meaning even if "foreigners" have damaged them. The spirits of the peoples ancestors still abide there, the land still has historical and cultural meaning, and in many cases it can be readapted to provide an historic way of life--at least in some measure. Again I recommend reading about the "Re-buffaloizing" of areas in the Dakotas.

Honoring the broken treaties would be a nice start.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Old-T

Blankets or no blankets, there is ample data that a massive fraction of native americans were killed by "european" diseases. A minor point you "forgot" I am sure. But since it wasn't blankets, it was OK, right?

But in IB's world, they are expendable. And just as he demonizes every northerner for the sins of some, he condemns all native americans for the sins of some--while glorifying and absolving southern plantation owners and secessionist traitors.

No one ever claimed IB was fair mined. Or sane. You totally missed my point: because they have demonstrated that in many cases they CAN undo what was done, YES, they do want it back. At least certain parts of it. Places can have deep cultural and religious meaning even if "foreigners" have damaged them. The spirits of the peoples ancestors still abide there, the land still has historical and cultural meaning, and in many cases it can be readapted to provide an historic way of life--at least in some measure. Again I recommend reading about the "Re-buffaloizing" of areas in the Dakotas.

Go back to sucking on your wine bottle, Old-THUMPER. There's a distinct difference between germ warfare and the happenstance introduction of a disease, Old-THUMPER. If you're not smart enough to understand that, then you really need to STFU, Old-THUMPER.

Fact, smallpox is a disease of African -- not European -- origin. Similarly, Yellow Fever is also from Africa, and the Anopheles mosquito hails primarily from tropical and sub-tropical Africa, and it's the principal vector that carries malaria, Old-THUMPER. Hence, some 75 to 90% of the European colonists trying to settle in the New World were also killed by those African diseases you ignorantly blame on Europeans and ignorantly believe killed only Native Americans, Old-THUMPER. So go back to nursing on your bottle, Old-THUMPER, while you luxuriate in your hypocrisy of defending the slave-owning, cannibalistic Native American societies of North America.

[i'va biggen]

Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

who as one of the largest private landowners in America has helped increase the buffalo population? why, a white guy named Ted Turner. a capitalist also. and what does he serve at his restaurants? buffalo streak! yum! i like mine medium well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Turner

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted's_Montana_Grill

Actually they are American Bison, and Mary Ann Goodnght did more to save them than anyone. Their heard is the closest to being pure as the crossbreeding left a lot of cattle DNA.

[The_Waco_Kid]

Originally Posted by i'va biggen

Did you say something chimp chump? No I didn't think so.

fuck you chimp.

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Honoring the broken treaties would be a nice start.

treaties are made to be broken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloto...ibbentrop_Pact

lol. treaties should be honored, but just because they are signed doesn't mean they are worth the ink they were written with.

[tandyscone]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

A couple of centuries does make a difference. Countries without monarchies, capitalism, Marxism, the Industrial Revolution, the end of slavery in Western societies, the Red Cross (and other, similar charitable organizations), women's suffrage, modern hygiene, are all products of the last 250 years. Imposing your values on a 16th century Spaniard is foolish. He was required to live and exist in a society that is different from yours. Cortes lived in a cruel world, where his forebears had been fighting Islam for some 800 years. It should come as no surprise that he carried those values with him to the New World. On the other hand, many of our modern values were established prior to Hitler's rise to power; hence, he acted outside the norms of society. You make an apples to oranges comparison when you try to impose your 21st century values on those who lived 150 or more years ago.

Curious. I have been talking about the US treatment of First Nations, which all happened less than 200 years before Hitler, and suggested evaluating that in light of the founding documents and sentiments that led to the US. You reply by citing Cortes who was a little over 200 years prior to the Declaration of Independence. Looks like if I am comparing apples to oranges, you are comping pears to oranges.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by tandyscone

Curious. I have been talking about the US treatment of First Nations, which all happened less than 200 years before Hitler, and suggested evaluating that in light of the founding documents and sentiments that led to the US. You reply by citing Cortes who was a little over 200 years prior to the Declaration of Independence. Looks like if I am comparing apples to oranges, you are comping pears to oranges.

You never indicated that your argument was so narrowly focused; especially, since the Aztecs, Amherst, and smallpox infected blankets were already being discussed. Furthermore, such a narrow focus superficially ignores the historical interaction between Native American cultures and European settlers that set the precedent for the post Revolutionary War interaction between Native Americans and the United States, such as this atrocity noted by Allen W. Eckert in his book Wilderness Empire:

July 1755: Immediately following Braddock's defeat, camp follower and pregnant, Mary Francis, wife of Virginia soldier Pvt Edgar Francis, was captured, stripped naked and tethered by the neck with a rawhide cord to thirteen other captives taken by Ottawa warriors that day. It is related that Mary Francis, in her pregnant condition, struggled to keep up with the fast moving warriors, and she was beaten and whipped until her back and buttocks were raw. One afternoon a few days after Braddock's defeat, when the warriors stopped to make camp, Mary Francis was tethered to a tree by the cord about her neck. The warriors built a fire and put a ten-gallon kettle of water on to boil. The kettle was booty from Braddock's defeat. When the water was brought to a roiling boil, two of the Ottawa warriors returned to where the exhausted Mary Francis was sleeping, tied to the tree. One warrior grabbed her and held her as the other warrior plunged a knife into the side of her pregnant stomach and tore the knife from that side to the other. The warrior then reached into the open wound and ripped the fetus from her quivering body. The Ottawa held it aloft for the others to see, and then he tossed the fetus into the pot of boiling water. He then returned to Mary Francis; whereupon, he scalped her, beheaded her, and proceeded to expertly butcher her body; putting the choice parts by the fire to roast.

[Old-T]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Go back to sucking on your wine bottle, Old-THUMPER. There's a distinct difference between germ warfare and the happenstance introduction of a disease, Old-THUMPER. If you're not smart enough to understand that, then you really need to STFU, Old-THUMPER.

Did I say there was not a difference? Why no, I didn't. But little IBHatemonger either can't read or can't be bothered to be honest. I suspect both are true.

However dead is still dead, so I will agree, it was mass negligent homicide. Those who died on the trail of tears, or at Sandcreek, those were murder.

And the dismemberment complements of Onate, also premeditated.

Sorry for the inconvenience, but I don't think I will keep quiet just because you would rather not be reminded of such things.

Fact, smallpox is a disease of African -- not European -- origin. Similarly, Yellow Fever is also from Africa, and the Anopheles mosquito hails primarily from tropical and sub-tropical Africa, and it's the principal vector that carries malaria, Old-THUMPER. Hence, some 75 to 90% of the European colonists trying to settle in the New World were also killed by those African diseases you ignorantly blame on Europeans, Old-THUMPER. So go back to nursing on your bottle, Old-THUMPER, while you luxuriate in your hypocrisy of defending the slave-owning, cannibalistic Native American societies of North America.

Remind me again, why were those Africans over here? Was it a tour group? Did they get lost while looking for a gas station? No, I remember! It was to serve on Massa' IB's Dixie Plantations! How could I forget.

While you are at it, check the full list of killer pathogens. You seem to have forgotten a few--like the ones of European origin. Coincidence? Somehow I don't think so.

Nope, IB the Slave Owner Wanna Be is once again the European's apologist. At least for the Europeans who settled south of the Mason-Dixon line and north of Mexico. We all know he despises those Mexicans and northerners every bit as much as he hates blacks, native Americans, Japanese, women, and many others too numerous to enumerate.

Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

fuck you chimp.

treaties are made to be broken.

lol. treaties should be honored, but just because they are signed doesn't mean they are worth the ink they were written with.

Laws--which treaties are--don't really need to be obeyed? Spoken like a true anarchist. And a racist one at that. So, laws are intended to be ignored by people like YOU--the superior race? Spoken like a true Nazi. Or a true politburo comrade. And here I thought you were a red-white-and-blue-to-the-core capitalist. You fooled me! You are still a bigoted racist, but a Trotsky-ite as well!

I wouldn't wish ill on any member of this board (only a slight white lie) but I would find it amazingly humorous and a huge dose of karma if you met you eventual by being trampled by a bison heard. Or if you contracted plague while traversing the Navajo reservation. Again--I am not wishing such ill fortune even on one as hateful as you, but I do think it would be darkly fitting.

[i'va biggen]

Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

fuck you chimp.

Don't get your hopes up faggot.


treaties are made to be broken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloto...ibbentrop_Pact

lol. treaties should be honored, but just because they are signed doesn't mean they are worth the ink they were written with.

[The_Waco_Kid]

Originally Posted by Old-T

Remind me again, why were those Africans over here? Was it a tour group? Did they get lost while looking for a gas station? No, I remember! It was to serve on Massa' IB's Dixie Plantations! How could I forget.

While you are at it, check the full list of killer pathogens. You seem to have forgotten a few--like the ones of European origin. Coincidence? Somehow I don't think so.

Nope, IB the Slave Owner Wanna Be is once again the European's apologist. At least for the Europeans who settled south of the Mason-Dixon line and north of Mexico. We all know he despises those Mexicans and northerners every bit as much as he hates blacks, native Americans, Japanese, women, and many others too numerous to enumerate.



Laws--which treaties are--don't really need to be obeyed? Spoken like a true anarchist. And a racist one at that. So, laws are intended to be ignored by people like YOU--the superior race? Spoken like a true Nazi. Or a true politburo comrade. And here I thought you were a red-white-and-blue-to-the-core capitalist. You fooled me! You are still a bigoted racist, but a Trotsky-ite as well!

I wouldn't wish ill on any member of this board (only a slight white lie) but I would find it amazingly humorous and a huge dose of karma if you met you eventual by being trampled by a bison heard. Or if you contracted plague while traversing the Navajo reservation. Again--I am not wishing such ill fortune even on one as hateful as you, but I do think it would be darkly fitting.

obviously you don't get humor. of course treaties as law should be observed. but things don't always work out in the real world do they? and when things change, so do treaties. would you uphold the treaty with Iran if it becomes evident they are violating it? idiot.

as for that karma you speak of, i'd shoot a bison before it could ever trample me and roast it into steaks.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Old-T

Remind me again, why were those Africans over here? Was it a tour group? Did they get lost while looking for a gas station? No, I remember! It was to serve on Massa' IB's Dixie Plantations! How could I forget.

While you are at it, check the full list of killer pathogens. You seem to have forgotten a few--like the ones of European origin. Coincidence? Somehow I don't think so.

Nope, IB the Slave Owner Wanna Be is once again the European's apologist. At least for the Europeans who settled south of the Mason-Dixon line and north of Mexico. We all know he despises those Mexicans and northerners every bit as much as he hates blacks, native Americans, Japanese, women, and many others too numerous to enumerate.

Smallpox, Yellow Fever and malaria were noted as the most virulent killers, Old-THUMPER. And slaves were articles of commerce noted in the Old Testament and the even older hieroglyphs in Egyptian temples, Old-THUMPER, and Eggypt is in Africa, Old-THUMPER, fyi. African slave traders captured, enslaved and brought Africans to market, and those African slave traders set the price for the slaves they sold to Europeans, Old-THUMPER. Before that, Old-THUMPER, Africans were, and still are, sold into slavery across the Sahara slave route, Old-THUMPER. So, Old-THUMPER, spit your supercilious hypocrisy into one of your empty wine bottles and shove it up your hypocritical and very stupid ass.