What to do?

[TexTushHog]

I didn't read the entire article as I'm short on time. But in the U.S. the First Amendment's protection is at it's broadest when protecting political speech. That includes, almost by definition, speech critical of the government.

Justice Holmes "clear and present danger" test (borrowed from Court of Appeals Judge Learned Hand) is technically still the test that separates legitimate criticism of the government from incitement to actively overthrowing the government. But saying that "there are battle fields in London and there are battle fields in Tora Bora" seem to be a far cry from inciting a violence in a clear and present way.

Suppose that in the course of criticizing the government for infringing on my liberties, I cite Thomas Jefferson and say that "The tree of liberty must occasionally be fertilized with the blood of tyrants." Is that really inciting violence against the government? Or is it just a general statement of how important we hold liberty to be?

The clearest experssion of U.S. law on this point was, to my limited knowledge (this isn't my field, guys), in Brandenburg v. Ohio:

[Our] decisions have fashioned the principle that the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not allow a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or cause such action.

Frankly, that seem to me to be the correct test. We want to give as much lee way as possible to free speech. Imprisoning advocates of alternative ways, deporting them, etc. only makes them martyrs to their cause. I think allowing them to speak and allowing our system to show our strengths through our citizens carrying on their lives in a free manner are infinitely superior than suppression of criticism.

[Rudyard K]

I don't disagree that there is probably nothiing legally that can be done. But there is also something f*cked up about that...even though I don't really have a solution.

But I do find it interesting how the tenor of this thread...at least among some of the more liberal members...took on a whole different manner than when we talked about the confederate flag in that thread some time ago. Much condemnation of those who would exercise such freedom of speech in that thread...not so much here. Enlightening.

[TexTushHog]

I would protect the rights of those who wish to display the confederate flag. That doesn't mean that I don't think that 1) their action is insensitive, at best; and 2) that as often as not their motives are despicable. But those are an entirely different matter from their First Amendment rights to display it.

[Rudyard K]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

I would protect the rights of those who wish to display the confederate flag. That doesn't mean that I don't think that 1) their action is insensitive, at best; and 2) that as often as not their motives are despicable. But those are an entirely different matter from their First Amendment rights to display it.

And yet you've felt compelled in that thread, and in this one, to opine to their despicability. But not so much when it comes to some guys who say they want to battle with our friends in England. I guess I'm just the opposite.

[Clerkenwell]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

I would protect the rights of those who wish to display the confederate flag. That doesn't mean that I don't think that 1) their action is insensitive, at best; and 2) that as often as not their motives are despicable. But those are an entirely different matter from their First Amendment rights to display it.

Is there Confederate Flag toilet tissue for sale anywhere? That's be a good use for it.

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

I would protect the rights of those who wish to display the confederate flag. That doesn't mean that I don't think that 1) their action is insensitive, at best; and 2) that as often as not their motives are despicable. But those are an entirely different matter from their First Amendment rights to display it.

have you ever been goosed? yeah you got picked on as a kid i think

anyway...you are being insensitive

[Sisyphus]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

I don't disagree that there is probably nothiing legally that can be done. But there is also something f*cked up about that...even though I don't really have a solution.

I hear 'ya! It's not a lot of fun watch, is it? But, here's the thing...at least as I understand the history of our political/legal thought (most of which was so brilliantly summarized by IBH)...that is precisely when your rights/freedoms matter the most...when the majority of us think what you think or say is fucked up.

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

But I do find it interesting how the tenor of this thread...at least among some of the more liberal members...took on a whole different manner than when we talked about the confederate flag in that thread some time ago. Much condemnation of those who would exercise such freedom of speech in that thread...not so much here. Enlightening.

You find it interesting when some of the "more liberal" of our number "switch sides" when the subject of the discussion is the confederate flag. I find it interesting when some of the more ardent supporters of capitalism (who tend to be our more conservative folk) don't seem to really believe in the freedom of the most important market of all....

...the market-place of ideas....

But, hey, we all have our "blind spots" I suppose...

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

But I do find it interesting how the tenor of this thread...at least among some of the more liberal members...took on a whole different manner than when we talked about the confederate flag in that thread some time ago. Much condemnation of those who would exercise such freedom of speech in that thread...not so much here. Enlightening.

Well I feel so much better knowing I passed Rudyard's test. I found both threads much ado about nothing .... well nothing except to show how paranoid the fringe on both the left and right are and how easily they will give up the first amendment when folks do things they don't agree with.

I also learnt that to follow a linear bouncing ball, you need to be stationed somewhere in the middle.