Mississippi’s flag

[Guest070721]

Richmond, Va?

[Brer Rabbit]

I think Mississippi, my home state, has done the right thing. We need a flag that speaks to unity and a bright future.

The Confederate Battle Flag has a place in history and it is in museums and other similar places where the flag should be displayed. It ought not appear in whole or as a part of a state flag on state or local government properties like courthouses or city halls.

National battlefields where the Civil War battles were fought should be included among those locations where the battle flag in proper historical context may be displayed. If we erase history we learn nothing from it.

The KKK and other more modern hate groups co-opted the battle flag and have turned it into a symbol associated with overt racism. That’s why it ought to go.

Allow me to say that as an alumn of the University of Mississippi I appreciate that it has long since banned the flag from use on campus and at sporting events. This was done even though the battle flag’s significance to that school has a strong historical link because of what happened on July 3, 1863 at Gettysburg.

Company A, 11th Mississippi Infantry Regiment, Army of Northern Virginia, held the left flank of the Confederate Army’s “Pickett’s Charge” that day. So what?

Well, Company A was the entire student body of the university, or what was left of it after fighting in most of the major battles in the East. It was the only unit on either side to have sustained 100% casualties that day. Wiped out.

It is the only unit at the Gettysburg National Park that the park commission permits to have two monuments - one where the charge began and the second at the stone wall of the Union line where they ended the charge. Their colors (that Battle Flag) were captured there. By distance, it was the greatest advance of any unit on the field that day.

Appropriately, their charge ended at Bryan’s Barn, on the property of a free black man!

So, it is the colors of the student body, Company A, 11th Mississippi, that became a memorial to those students and became associated with their school.

Many people, including most of its students, do not know why the battle flag (actually regimental colors) became associated with the school.

But, since it’s original intent, to honor the students who died under those colors that day, has been co-opted by racist bigots, it’s time to retire the flag from public use for all but museums and battlefields in proper historical context.

The South was wrong. It was about slavery. I’m glad the North won. We still have much healing to do. But it’s not wrong to remember that there was duty, honor, and valor in those young men, as misguided as the bigoted politicians were that caused the war that put them there that day.

[BassCat]

The best book I have read about the 11th Mississippi infantry is "University Grays" by Whitaker Denman. Its a must read if you want to know the history of the 11th.

I am fine with the flag being changed. I just dont like it being forced. It should have been voted on. It would have meant a lot more had Mississippians come together and voted to change the flag.

My great great grandfather was also at Gettysburg with the 14th Alabama. The 14th fought heroically at the battle of frazier's farm.

Originally Posted by Brer Rabbit

I think Mississippi, my home state, has done the right thing. We need a flag that speaks to unity and a bright future.

The Confederate Battle Flag has a place in history and it is in museums and other similar places where the flag should be displayed. It ought not appear in whole or as a part of a state flag on state or local government properties like courthouses or city halls.

National battlefields where the Civil War battles were fought should be included among those locations where the battle flag in proper historical context may be displayed. If we erase history we learn nothing from it.

The KKK and other more modern hate groups co-opted the battle flag and have turned it into a symbol associated with overt racism. That’s why it ought to go.

Allow me to say that as an alumn of the University of Mississippi I appreciate that it has long since banned the flag from use on campus and at sporting events. This was done even though the battle flag’s significance to that school has a strong historical link because of what happened on July 3, 1863 at Gettysburg.

Company A, 11th Mississippi Infantry Regiment, Army of Northern Virginia, held the left flank of the Confederate Army’s “Pickett’s Charge” that day. So what?

Well, Company A was the entire student body of the university, or what was left of it after fighting in most of the major battles in the East. It was the only unit on either side to have sustained 100% casualties that day. Wiped out.

It is the only unit at the Gettysburg National Park that the park commission permits to have two monuments - one where the charge began and the second at the stone wall of the Union line where they ended the charge. Their colors (that Battle Flag) were captured there. By distance, it was the greatest advance of any unit on the field that day.

Appropriately, their charge ended at Bryan’s Barn, on the property of a free black man!

So, it is the colors of the student body, Company A, 11th Mississippi, that became a memorial to those students and became associated with their school.

Many people, including most of its students, do not know why the battle flag (actually regimental colors) became associated with the school.

But, since it’s original intent, to honor the students who died under those colors that day, has been co-opted by racist bigots, it’s time to retire the flag from public use for all but museums and battlefields in proper historical context.

The South was wrong. It was about slavery. I’m glad the North won. We still have much healing to do. But it’s not wrong to remember that there was duty, honor, and valor in those young men, as misguided as the bigoted politicians were that caused the war that put them there that day.

[KBurnicci]

Originally Posted by Steel Wheels

You are absolutely correct, WD, the American Civil War was fought over the issue of state’s rights... Interestingly, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, Andrew Jackson, Martin Van Buren, William Henry Harrison, John Tyler, James Polk, Zachary Taylor, Andrew Jackson and Ulysses S. Grant were all slave owners... I guess we just have to demolish Washington D.C.
Most recently, the protesters were trying to tear down a statue of Abraham Lincoln... whatever... he was a Republican, ironically

The Civil War was absolutely fought over states’ rights. They were fighting for the right of autonomy. They wanted to determine their own destiny and not let the federal government determine how they lived their lives. They were fighting for the right to secede from the Union that they had just voted to joined in 1817.
The thing is, the only reason that Mississippi wanted to secede from the Union is because they THOUGHT the president was trying to abolish slavery, which he wasn’t. Lincoln had only sought to stop the expansion of slavery into the West. People try to rationalize or justify the Civil War by saying that it was fought over states’ rights. My question is why. The rights that they were fighting for all stem from their right to own and purchase human beings so they could preserve their way of life.

But… regardless of the history, that flag didn’t represent a large percentage of the state’s citizens. To me, it would be the same as a state with a large population of Jewish citizens, although not the majority, who proudly flew their flag with a swastika on it. The swastika was around long before Nazi Germany adopted it as their logo, but since that symbol is associated with the terrible atrocities that were committed by the Nazis, it isn’t tolerated in the majority of places in the world. For many people of color, the old ”Stars and Bars” is akin to the swastika.

[Steel Wheels]

In reflection, my great aunt Madge, who was my family’s historian and surrogate grandmother, hated the 4th of July because the battles of Vicksburg and Gettysburg were lost on this day... I always thought that was ironic...
I agree that Mississippi should change its flag... I just hate that my noble ancestors have become villains in the process.
I will always feel that they fought and died for their State’s honor and pride.
At any rate, every ending is a new beginning...

[jofms]

Bass Cat, you should also read “Thithes of Blood” which is about the 11th Miss Infantry from one participants perspective. By Billy Ellis.

[BassCat]

Originally Posted by jofms

Bass Cat, you should also read “Thithes of Blood” which is about the 11th Miss Infantry from one participants perspective. By Billy Ellis.

Thanks for the heads up Jofms I just found a copy on ebay. I wish I had a copy of university grays still. I let a friend borrow it and it never returned. Its rather hard to find a copy these days.

I came to possess the book in the same manner so I guess its apropos that I lost it the same way.

I only read non fiction biographies and the like. I just finished "Home before morning" by Lynda Va Devanter. She was a nurse in Vietnam. A very good read also if you like those type books.

[o2flyhi]

Originally Posted by BassCat

Thanks for the heads up Jofms I just found a copy on ebay. I wish I had a copy of university grays still. I let a friend borrow it and it never returned. Its rather hard to find a copy these days.

I came to possess the book in the same manner so I guess its apropos that I lost it the same way.

I only read non fiction biographies and the like. I just finished "Home before morning" by Lynda Va Devanter. She was a nurse in Vietnam. A very good read also if you like those type books.

Dang Bass, guys like me just thought you were all about finding top shelf poon. Here you are showing your entillect, intillect, er, ah.....smarts!

[Steel Wheels]

This has been an amazing discourse in general. As Hawkone said , “ a great read” . Well done, gentlemen

[BeardedMenace]

I have enjoyed reading through this thread. Even though we all have our own opinions, Everyone has handled this rather touchy subject with civility. Unfortunately in this day in age, it's not a very common occurence.

[BassCat]

Originally Posted by o2flyhi

Dang Bass, guys like me just thought you were all about finding top shelf poon. Here you are showing your entillect, intillect, er, ah.....smarts!

I live on the ms gulf coast where top shelf poon rarely makes the rounds. When it does I do my best to get in line as often as possible though.

When I say read I really mean I just look at the pictures. I dont want you guys thinking I am some kind of Einstein or something. The closest I get to thinking like Einstein is "E=hooker legs spread" so I guess that makes me Poonstein lol

It is nice to see a thread that could have devolved into hate speak about each others views remain civil. Its sad when a whore board is more tolerant than most other forums I visit.

[Guitar]

I'm not a read lover, myself. I'm like you about the pictures Basscat. I browse more than I read.

[jofms]

Bass cat hope you like the book. It is amazing what our ancestors went through in that war. While I revere their memory, it’s time to move on.

[Brer Rabbit]

There is also another great book about Company A, 11th Mississippi. It’s “And Also With You”, by Will Campbell. Company A was called the University Grays. A hundred years later, and topical to this discussion, James Meredith entered the University as its first black student. There were riots, sometimes referred to as “the last battle of the Civil War.”

A young Episcopal pastor, Rev. Duncan Gray, Jr. (eventually to later become Bishop) bucked local sentiment and opened his church to the “freedom riders” and sided with Meredith in his efforts to enroll. Gray bravely and peacefully stood at the confederate monument at the foot of the circle entering the Grove and supporting Meredith and those who supported him against the angry and violent mob.

Campbell uses the play on words Gray vs University Grays to switch back and forth between the two events vividly painting them 100 years apart. Duncan Gray, Jr. is a positive white role model of courage and tolerance. A few years later he pastored a church in Meridian. The Jewish Synagogue was torched or bombed by the KKK. He and his congregation opened the church to the Synagogue for use on their Sabbath for quite some time until the Synagogue could be rebuilt.

[Steel Wheels]

The people defacing monuments are anarchistic, It’s all about political power. Their agenda has nothing to do with social justice.
Defund the police if you want to... it’s just ridiculous ... now I am getting pissed off... when is enough going to be enough?