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We seem to be at an impasse...two sides that have common interests but will defend their turf until the bitter end.
Its the GOP vs the Dems Christians vs Muslims Rocky vs Bullwinkle...er...Apollo Creed
Heres what I see.
*Hoogars want to feel like the community (all genders) care for their safety... *Johns want the Hoogars to take precausions, or quit bitching WHEN THEY DON'T
I absolutely agree with both sides. But neither "side" is 100% right. There is always a bit of grey.
Here are a couple of stories to wrap your heads around for relevance.
Story I: A girl comes home to find her place devoid of belongings. She calls the cops. Cops fill out a report. During the questioning cop asks the girl "did you lock your door"? Girl says "Its never happened to me before, so no...I don't lock my door".
Lesson to be learned?
Story II: Ambulance arrives at the scene of an accident...driver is in the car, dazed, but otherwise ok. Passenger is 50' down the roadway with his head 3' inside of the tractor trailer that was in front of them. Drivers wearing a seatbelt...passenger was texting for his next hoogar visit, but no seat belt.
Lesson to be learned?
The board can only protect so much. Vigilantes can only right so many wrongs. And that's always AFTER the damage is done, It doesn't fix YOU. There are crazies in this world...hell you probably know some, you might even be one. PROTECT YOURSELF...
Its like anti gun peeps who cry that the police will protect us...no...they will clean up the blood, have your body wheeled away, and MAYBE avenge your death.
Lesson to be learned? None...you're dead...
What RandB is saying...I think...is NOT that no one cares. Its that almost every case could be prevented if you screen correctly. Hell WhixxZy has been preaching it for years...and know what? Hes right. OF COURSE NOT EVERY INCIDENT IS BECAUSE OF BAD SCREENING... BUT BE HONEST, MOST ARE.
If you don't know how to screen...learn....plenty of Hoogars here to share what works for them. But if you are gonna roll them dice...well...don't ever, ever say you weren't warned.
The minute you let your guard down is when you get KTFO...don't get knocked the fuck out...
I think Toyz explained it quite well.
I think Whizpy is upset that someone is beating him at his own game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whispers
Why do you have INTEL on RandB fan?
Is it the result of him trying to book with you?
Is it the result of personal contact with you on his part?
In a previous thread it was put out there that you were attempting to obtain information about other members of this community by trying to solicit information from ladies they had seen under the pretense they were trying to book with you / screening.
Why would you make a statement here in a thread regarding such INTEL? Is it a threat to him in some form? Are you trying to influence his statements through some sort of intimidation?
Are you digging into the personal lives of everyone that posts an opinion opposite yours?
Let me see if I have y'all's arguments figured correctly:
p: Women should be more vigilant about coming forward to the community about rape to get support.
-p: 99.5% of industry rapes (199 in 200) are the fault of the provider. She should really have been more professional about not getting raped.
(That language will have girls clamorin' for support…)
p: The "sisterhood" really ought to step-up and speak-out.
-p: But those old, fat, and ugly ones really ought to shut the fuck up already.
p: If y'all screened correctly you would avoid being one of the 99.5%
-p: But let's openly give dudes advice on how to find women who are OK with not screening.
p: [insert cryptic hint about locker room intel on women who can be coerced into sexual acts to which they have not consented]
-p: You stupid whores need to stop sneaking into the locker room. Rules!
Here's the deal...if women here had any doubts about support from the community in regards to rape, they don't anymore. Just another day of misogynistic drivel.
Wait wait wait…you mean to tell me that the men here are rapists?
No. I said rape apologists. But actually, some here are rapists. You make me sound like some kind of asshole!
I mean, you did that for yourself. And I didn’t say asshole, but I will say misogynist. I DON’T HATE WOMEN. I PAY $10k/YR TO FUCK COLLEGE HOTTIES!
Exactly. YOU’RE OLD, UGLY, FAT, AND IRRELEVANT!
I’m only a portion of your age, twice as smart, AND a woman. I realize that must be hard to handle for a misogynist. YOU’RE OLD, UGLY, FAT, AND IRRELEVANT!
So you only agree with women who you find fuckable? I WOULD NEVER FUCK YOU!
Cool. But you realize you’re just supporting my argument re: misogyny, yes? Not because you won’t fuck me, but because you refuse to listen to any woman who you don’t find fuckable. SHUT UP YOU STUPID CUNT!
I’m planning on it. But you realize “shut up” isn’t a sufficient rebuttal to my refutation of your asshat theories on how providers ‘ought’ to conduct themselves to prevent falling victim to male perpetrated sexual violence.
And for those of y’all looking for input on how to support providers and combat rape culture within the local hobby community, here are some options:
1) Call out misogynistic bullshit when you see it.
2) Respect providers’ boundaries.
3) Stand up against discourse that promote misogyny.
4) Stand up against discourse that denigrates providers. (Disagree with what they say, what they do, or how they run their business…fine. But threatening to out personal information, including whose boundaries are easier to cross is bad. Information on how to manipulate women in need is also fuuuuucked up.)
5) I’m sure there are plenty of other ways, but my brain hurts too much after reading all of this bullshit to come up with any.
And yes, as a woman I feel more entitled to an opinion about misogyny in general and rape specifically. Sort of how brown people are more entitled to an opinion about racism.
Ever hear the saying "you can't help those who won't help themselves"?
Bitch, whine, and complain about it being a male perpetrated crime all you want, what does that get you? NOTHING
What does proactively screening and not inviting them into your space get? NOT RAPED
Greeting Jenns
Sorry if you take any remarks made toward you in any way as purely fictional and in no way factual. toward others, not so much. I have always liked what you have contributed until now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JennsLolli
Let me see if I have y'all's arguments figured correctly:
-p: [COLOR="rgb(85, 107, 47)"]Providers here have distorted the term rape and have made it include shorting of payment, being given counterfeit money, and outright non payment/ This is not rape but fraud. A crime called theft of services. If you think it should be rape then you need to contact your local, state or federal lawmaker. Let me know how that works out for you? That would be like someone who sells cop killer rounds (armor-piercing) and when given faulty goods (substandard quality polytetrafluoroethylene coating) asking lawmakers to impose standards to as to the composition of the form of Teflon coatings that can be used. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! [/COLOR]
-p:Women should be more vigilant about coming forward to the community about rape to get support.
[COLOR="rgb(85, 107, 47)"]It should be noted the that when an aggravated sexual assault (rape) tricking provider in able to preform BB when the agreement was for no uncovered intercourse is not aggravated yet still sexual assault, both should be treated the same, police called, rape kit at hospital, agreement to testify all should take place, failure to do so is part of the problem and in no way part of a solution. How does the community allow for the sharing of information but if you have a police report, you should be allowed to share as much as the prosecutor allows with no safegaurds for the offender. Failure to do so because of the (prostitute stigma) is not ,IMHO, going to get you support here.
I do not believe this (sharing RW information) should happen in an open forum, The true names and all viable RW information should be able to be released in the private setting. not where it is available to any 14 year old who hacked the safe zone on the schools Internet.
I am all for the fact that all offenses should be prosecuted, I feel that laws should be modified to strengthen the penalties for all types or classes of sexual assault, violent or not. The system should make substantial restitution to victims mandatory and in all cases the offender should have restraints to their personal freedoms put in place. We treat pedophiles one way and rapists another which is wrong. I think they should all be treated like Jarad Fogel and have to liquidate whatever they or their families own to make a substantial restitution to their victims. How about the thought of a $100,000.00 restitution plus possible jail time, offender status, and probable loss of family relations and employment (even a fraction of $$$ would go a long way towards making a woman feel whole again) should be substantial enough to make someone think twice before playing a trick with a condom. for their own personal satisfaction, no matter what the reason may be or if it happens during an act of prostitution. [/COLOR]
-p: 99.5% of industry rapes (199 in 200) are the fault of the provider. You need to rephrase as it was the ones that are discussed here that was addressed not under the bridge down by the river across the country ect. ect. She should really have been more professional and before giving someone the green light should consider the facts and protect herself against rape about not getting raped. Yes, show me the one who did her due diligence and didn't cut corners to get the money who was assaulted. I do not nor do I want access to ML. I do not play the end around game. I am sure there are some who do but I son't play those games. Of the people who have complained and the information available to me only a small fraction of savvy providers have ever had a problem.
(That language will have girls clamorin' for support…)
-p: The "sisterhood" really ought to step-up and speak-out.[COLOR="rgb(85, 107, 47)"] Yes you should be forming as 501C-3 to educate and lobby for your "sisterhood's"concerns and the good for all involved. Why just be concerned about sexual assault. with in the hobby? There is a unsubstantial problem at UT as at all universities. What do you do to give back to your own community?
-p: But those old, fat, and ugly ones really ought to shut the fuck up already.
I personally do not have a problem with any old, fat, ugly "ones" just the ones who play the system both ways, being one person when they are really another. I know no one here other than a few providers who, by the way, have no idea that I am Rand B fan or if i have seen them BCDs or not, so I am not running wing man for anyone. Toys and I have PM'ed a couple of times about off Hobby common interests but that is it. [/COLOR]
p: If y'all screened correctly you would avoid being one of the 99.5% Yes. I have seen some of the screening that takes place and it makes the word "light" an overstatement! I have software on my system at work that can tell me enough about you that your toes would curl and even though it is not cheap there are other services out there who offer good, affordable, services. I, once again, am only able to see what the whole world can see as I do not want to be in the ML but yes those who do screen thoroughly don't seem to have issues with cash , or sexual consent issues..
-p: But let's openly give dudes advice on how to find women who are OK with not screening. I don't nor do I condone and frankly you have the right to blacklist them personally or as a group.
p: [insert cryptic hint about locker room intel on women who can be coerced into sexual acts to which they have not consented] [COLOR="rgb(0, 100, 0)"]See above.[/COLOR]
-p: You stupid whores need to stop sneaking into the locker room. Rules!
[COLOR="rgb(0, 100, 0)"]As it is well known in any activity, if your not cheating you are losing, Get used to it! They are in your rooms too.[/COLOR]
Here's the deal...if women here had any doubts about support from the community in regards to rape, they don't anymore. Just another day of misogynistic drivel.
LET ME REPHASE THIS FOR YOU!
Here's the deal IMHO...if any of the handfull of women who are participating in this tread had any doubts about support from the other members who have posted here, in regards to their feelings regarding proper screening as a deterrent to criminal behavior including theft, violence, and rape, no matter what form, they don't anymore. They can just twist what is said by a few and make it the consensus of the whole. Just another day of misogynistic drivel being brought on and highlighted by a group of misandric prostitutes that are forced to have sex with men because they can't earn $100 K tax free with out them.
My daughter wrote a thesis regarding the prominence of misandry in the media and society in general and how people are using feminism as an excuse to be misandrists.
You have to love a 4th grade teacher who see's the world like it really is and wants to teach others so they don't grow up to be well "whores"!
If you would like a copy they are $37.50 via paypal at philogynist@eccie.net. I'll send you an electronic copy.
It seems to make perfect sense when you relate it to a group of prostitutes who want nothing other than to extract the money from their trick's pockets and be rid of them. I would like to be able to find the quote where it was said that the purpose of this forum "paraphrased" is to give men a place to compare notes on prostitutes and for the prostitutes to place ads.
Wait wait wait…you mean to tell me that the men here are rapists?
No. I said rape apologists. But actually, some here are rapists. You make me sound like some kind of asshole!
I mean, you did that for yourself. And I didn’t say asshole, but I will say misogynist. I DON’T HATE WOMEN. I PAY $10k/YR TO FUCK COLLEGE HOTTIES!
Exactly. YOU’RE OLD, UGLY, FAT, AND IRRELEVANT!
I’m only a portion of your age, twice [COLOR="rgb(85, 107, 47)"]yeah? where's your Mesa card Biotch[/COLOR] as smart, AND a woman. I realize that must be hard to handle for a misogynist. Sounds like a typical misandrist to me YOU’RE OLD, UGLY, FAT, AND IRRELEVANT!
So you only agree with women who you find fuckable? I WOULD NEVER FUCK YOU!
Cool. But you realize you’re just supporting my argument re: misogyny, yes? Not because you won’t fuck me, but because you refuse to listen to any woman who you don’t find fuckable. [COLOR="rgb(85, 107, 47)"]see above[/COLOR] SHUT UP YOU STUPID CUNT!
I’m planning on it. But you realize “shut up” isn’t a sufficient rebuttal to my refutation of your asshat theories on how providers ‘ought’ to conduct themselves to prevent falling victim to male perpetrated sexual violence.
[COLOR="rgb(85, 107, 47)"]Not worth an addl. comment[/COLOR]
And for those of y’all looking for input on how to support providers and combat rape culture within the local hobby community, here are some options:
1) Call out misogynistic bullshit when you see it. Attack "misandric"attitudes
2) Respect providers’ boundaries. you're fucking vendors not business partners
3) Stand up against discourse that promote misogyny or misandry .
4) Stand up against discourse that denigrates providers. (Disagree with what they say, what they do, or how they run their business…fine. But threatening to out personal information, including whose boundaries are easier to cross is bad. Information on how to manipulate women in need is also fuuuuucked up.)
[COLOR="rgb(85, 107, 47)"] I believe that everything i have ever referrred to is already public information. It is readily available in the Austin double wire trailer forum. For what it is worth, if it looks like trailer trash, acts like trailer trash, then chances are it is trailer trash. Respect is something you earn by respecting others not an entitlement which many take advantage of, in a fraudulent manner, both here and in the RW.[/COLOR]
5) I’m sure there are plenty of other ways, but my brain hurts too much after reading all of this bullshit to come up with any.[COLOR="rgb(85, 107, 47)"] Ahhhh your little, twice as smart, misandric, electro-control center is malfunctioning. Awww poor thing? here's some advice [/COLOR]
You should protect yourself from any form of psychogenic damage by better choosing what soapbox you want to do your little "Dennis Miller" rant about. This one seemed to overwork your little neuron center and the ion's got a negative charge It's like Optical Rectumitus, Just different
And yes, as a woman I feel more entitled to an opinion about misogyny in general and rape specifically. Sort of how brown people are more entitled to an opinion about racism.
I am going to address that with a whole series of videos. Here is the first one.
Before posting this I want everyone to understand Jen and I get along quite well. However, even though I know the majority of her post was not in response to my entry, enough of it was for me to pen my own response.
First, Misogony is not rape. Lets be extremely clear on that...attempting to blend the two & confuse the issues is pretty slick for the untrained eye to detect.
Attacking with wanton glee (I love that phrase) doesn't do much to make guys even want to care about open misogony. I know you are having fun with the word play as well...and I consider our brain pans of equal girth, so no putdowns in that arena please..."strike me down & I will come back more powerful than you can imagine"...YODA...or Rafiki...I get the two confused...
Ignoring the FACT that the vast majority of rape cases in this hobby could be alleviated by better screening is not only silly, but dangerous. Do YOUR jobs & you likely won't be on here reporting someone who researched your weak screening skills and probably set you up. Making light of the percentages is fun for verbal warfare, but senseless. I KNOW Hoogars don't want to admit that they could have prevented most of the issues, but its just the way it is. There are freaks in all walks of life, why would you think there are none here...or even possibly more laughable, that you (or I) could affect the way they act on the board or in your bed?
What has set me off the most? That many Hoogars think we guys DON'T care about your safety...or that we ignore when someone is hurt-or ripped off-or compromised. But there is only so much we can do. Its YOUR business...use good business principles. Network with the others, find out who is sketchy. Put in the time to make the big bucks.
Yes, misogyny is not rape. It would take one hell of a leftist nutter of a feminist to try to make any claims otherwise. BUT to deny the role of misogyny in rape culture and therefore rape frequency is to not understand a single fucking thing about how the world actually works for anyone other than you and your friends. Have you not yet made that connection? Congratulations, chances are you are a white male armed with all of the according privileges.
Here’s where shit gets tricky. Rape culture and misogynist thoughts are not only perpetuated by rapists, rape apologists, and misogynists, but also by all of us asshats who sit silently by and let all of this drivel fill up our community space. Sure, I’ve been out of this community for a bit, but it creeps me the fuck out that I have had put up with it, am still putting up with it, and am close to others who are as well. This is why I decided to say anything at all, regardless of my current relevancy.
Absolutely, screening helps to cut down on rape risk. It also cuts down on murder risk, arrest risk, monetary loss risk, and outing risk. But to consistently bring industry rape conversations back to screening conversations is futile at best and counterproductive at worst. Look at colleges, for instance. We used to provide rape prevention training for women, telling them to travel in groups, trust their gut instincts, and to carry a rape whistle. Every woman here who has been on a residential campus recently has had the “here are the blue box rape alerts to hit if you’re being followed on the way to your dorm….watch your drink…don’t get too drunk” seminars. Recently, the focus has shifted to consent training classes for all students. Rightly so, as teaching half of the population how to keep from being victimized does absolutely nothing to actually curb the aggression, drive, and whatever else compels these fuckhead rapists to rape. You know, it’s a classic “nip it at the bud” approach.
OK now, shit’s about to get tricky again. Whenever conversations of rape in our community are brought up, mansplainin’ shit about what’s rape and how to prevent rape are distractors from THE REAL, ACTUAL ISSUES and therefore hurt the women who are coming forward, planning to come forward, or who might come forward in the future for support when they are indeed raped. Do you not understand how non-violent rape is rapey enough to be considered rape? Well, congratulations again! You must own a penis and are armed with all of the according privileges. (Pro-tip, to make a rape non-violent and less rapey, just give up fighting and cry silently into the mattress.)
Instead of schooling women on how to not be raped, consider schooling yourself on the female experience and rape in general. Look for information on how to be an ally to women (you know, something more concrete than paying them to fuck you). If you want a starter, I listed 4 ways to be an ally in my original post. Standing up against misogynist discourse is a great start. Words like “whore” and concepts like “you’re just a sex vending machine” and ideas such as “if I don’t want to fuck you, I’m going to yell about how disgusting you are until your voice gets out of my space within a shared community” are examples of the misogynistic discourse that is rampant in these parts. See also “99.5% of industry related rapes are due to poor screening.” Ummm…over 60% of rapes outside of the industry are partner related, another healthy portion are family or acquaintance related, and fewer than 16% are stranger-danger related. I know within our community those numbers are skewed more toward stranger-danger, but it goes to show you that rape is a lot more fucking complicated and hard to prevent than you dudes think.
"Yes, misogyny is not rape". Then more posturing...
"Absolutely, screening helps to cut down on rape risk". Then more posturing...
“99.5% of industry related rapes are due to poor screening.” WHO said 99.5%? YOU...no one else...YOU.
Posting a picture of a liar, a murderer & a danger to society (Clinton) really doesnt do much for me...
But I gathered the points from your post and condensed them to their base points above. This has NOTHING to do with anything at colleges, or correcting societies ills. It has EVERYTHING to do with what happens in the P4P landscape...NOTHING ELSE. You want to fix society in general? This isnt the place to do it. Hate the way society treats women? Stage a sit in...plan a march...contact your congressman. In this space we have girls come forward and say they are raped and INARGUABLY almost everytime they could have prevented it by screening correctly...FUCK NO this doesnt mean they deserved it, expand you mind if your pussy isnt blocking it and hear this part...it means we as a community can only do so much, then its ON YOU to protect yourself...
I'm not a rapist. I dont condone a rape culture. And I damn sure don't appreciate being grouped in with your biased views because I have a penis (thank god I do and it still works moderately well). But if I want to make a joke on a fuck board about women (or men) I fully intend to do it. I'm not a part of this ridiculous "dont say anything controversial" new social trend...its censorship by shaming and its hilarious to me.
Also, don't condescend to me that I'm just a dude. I know a hell of a lot more about this topic than will be disclosed on a fuck board. If thats your final answer, then why posture to present a valid argument? You rail against misogyny then follow it up with blatant male hating...and you want others to believe in your cause??? Please...
Posting a picture of a liar, a murderer & a danger to society (Clinton) really doesnt do much for me...
But I gathered the points from your post and condensed them to their base points above. This has NOTHING to do with anything at colleges, or correcting societies ills. It has EVERYTHING to do with what happens in the P4P landscape...NOTHING ELSE. You want to fix society in general? This isnt the place to do it. Hate the way society treats women? Stage a sit in...plan a march...contact your congressman. In this space we have girls come forward and say they are raped and INARGUABLY almost everytime they could have prevented it by screening correctly...FUCK NO this doesnt mean they deserved it, expand you mind if your pussy isnt blocking it and hear this part...it means we as a community can only do so much, then its ON YOU to protect yourself...
I'm not a rapist. I dont condone a rape culture. And I damn sure don't appreciate being grouped in with your biased views because I have a penis (thank god I do and it still works moderately well). But if I want to make a joke on a fuck board about women (or men) I fully intend to do it. I'm not a part of this ridiculous "dont say anything controversial" new social trend...its censorship by shaming and its hilarious to me.
Also, don't condescend to me that I'm just a dude. I know a hell of a lot more about this topic than will be disclosed on a fuck board. If thats your final answer, then why posture to present a valid argument? You rail against misogyny then follow it up with blatant male hating...and you want others to believe in your cause??? Please...
Love ya though...
The 99.5% stat is just a jab at RandBtard who proposed such a figure. I mean, ignoring that society at large has any impact in society within hobby culture is uh...a pretty far stretch.
Look. My "silly boys think" quotes are simply a distillation of the male voice that I have heard on this board (and others) over the past decade. (Except that 99.5% shit I pulled from that asshat's post). Sure, I'm a feminist, have taken numerous women's study courses, and I have also taken a variety of courses on trauma (rape related), human sexuality (female lens of sex, risk for sex workers, rape culture, and more trauma), and I've been a hooker on and off for a decade. Oh and I've had a vagina for 30+ years and have been a victim to misogyny since before puberty. Fun fact! I was told by strangers exactly how nice my big ass was as I was trucking my niece's and nephew's presents out of my car after a 12 hour day at work. Weird, though, seeing as I'm SO OLD and SO GROSS.
Point being, before you boys get riled up enough to post, take a moment to figure out why y'all are getting riled up. Consider what contributions you are making for the community at large. Consider that you're probably being more defensive than helpful or supportive.
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